Warnings about Harry Potter

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Dear (name removed by moderator),

Cordial greetings and hope all is well.

Have already answered that question in a previous post (281).

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
No of course not. I’m amazed that people who can not support the Harry Potter series because of the magic will turn around and support the Narnia and Lord of the Rings series. Both of those books have magic in them as well as the Christians themes that run though Harry Potter. 🤷
 
Okay, forget the mental note. I gotta tattoo this reminder!! D8>

goes into Panic Mode while owl comes in with message
I had the same issue with book 7, The Deathly Hallows. It started out good and the middle just dragged. It took me 2 weeks and that was literally forcing myself to get though that middle portion but I did finish it. Make yourself get though that part and the ending will be worth it.

This was the only book in the Harry Potter series, that for me, had any drag in it. The other 6 just flew right on by without stopping. 👍
 
Don’t judge it unless you read it. Its really not that bad, and you won’t turn into the devil for reading it, or whatever you guys seem to think will happen. :p:rolleyes:

Seriously guys, nothing will happen by reading it. Its just pure entertainment. There is nothing really wrong with it. There is ‘evil’ in almost anything if you look for it. Time to quit being silly guys.

And I guarantee you that your kids will see worse things at school or in the REAL world than in these books. Nothing in these books is real. It’s pure fantasy. However things that you kids will run into in the real world are not fantasy. And those are the things you should be worried about. Not these harry potter books.
 
Well, it’s going to be hard to have discourse about a book you have never read, or a movie you have never seen. Given that I have read the books, and you have not, your arguement that the book parallels witchcraft is based purely on heresay. I have read the book and affirm that it does not. I base that on interactions with the primary sources – not hearsay. Also, given that you have not read the books, I hardly think you can qualify them as trash by your own authority.
Were you aware that Father Gabreile Amorth, the chief exorcist of the diocese of Rome, has admonished parent’s against the HP books in an inteview with the ANSA news agency? He quite bluntly said that “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”. Moreover, he said that many of the ideas expressed in the books were from the realm of darkness, that they contain innumerable positive references to magic, “the satanic art”, and attempt to make a false distinction between black and white magic, when in point of fact no such distinction exists because “…magic is always recourse to the Devil”. He further censured the disordered morality presented in Rowling’s works, which he decidedly believes reinforce moral relativism. What he does not say is that “the books are based off of mythologies of other cultures”.

Are you aware that the Vatican newspaper has applauded the Potter films for their moral character?
  1. Do not promote occultism and are in fact mocked by people involved in the occult.
  2. Promote a clear sense of right and wrong, with only the villians of the books stating (and I quote) “There is no right, or wrong. There is only power.” and “In this case the ends justify the means” two ideas that are utterly condemned by the church. The novels themselves speak for a clear sense of right and wrong in an age when right and wrong are being blurred by this relativism you claim it preaches.
Again, you haven’t read the books. You haven’t seen the movie. You’ll forgive me when I can’t take seriously your appraisal of the book based on hearsay. I, however, have read the books. They are rich literature, and promote morality in an age where relativism runs rampant. There are far worse things we should be weeping about as catholics.

Back at you.

Dear Whitacre_Girl,

Cordial greetings and again thankyou for your reply to my post.

First, I should like to lay to rest once for all this mistaken and very modern notion that a man must read a book from cover to cover before he ventures to give any critical analysis of its contents. The whole argument that one must read a HP novel, or any other novel, in its entirety to have an informed opinion is, quite frankly, utterly risible and plainly wrong. Moreover, the people who assert this would never in a month of Sundays apply that to themselves in any number of other issues. They only say this to make cheap debater’s points in an effort to close someone down and marginalize any opposing viewpoint. It is a tactic employed soley for polemical purposes and until recent times would have been treated with the contempt that it rightly deserves.

The vast majority of people would accept that reading trusted reviews and in-depth analysis of any work suffices for the purposes of debate, after all one is engaging in a debate, not preparing to write a book review for a broadsheet newspaper. Similarly, I have never read The Davinci Code, but I have read articles and reviews that clearly show it to be arrant nonsense of the first rank, so I just give it a wide-berth; why on earth do I need to waste my time reading such worthless fiction? Clearly, it is not a matter of regurgitating hearsay or being unsystematic, but merely leaning on trusted and respected reviews and articles, written by others, in order to better understand a given work. This has always been quite permissible until, so it seems, quite recent times.

Second, accolades concerning HP in L’ Osservatore Romano cut no ice whatsoever with me; it is not the official organ of the Catholic Church, but merely a sort of quasi-official Vatican newspaper. At any rate it is not regulated by the Curia. Therefore just because something appears within its pages, that does mean that it has Vatican approval. The mainstream media frequently err in this regard also. So we ought to take what we read in this partisan newspaper with the proverbial grain of salt, especially in recent times under its new editor.

Finally, you state that the books “promote a clear sense of right and and wrong”, I strongly beg to differ. Nowhere, in the series is there any reference to a system of moral absolutes against which actions can be evaluated. True, there are “ethics” and “values” aplenty in the tales but in the final analysis they are little more than an ethos; a materialists sort of morality subsumed in the glamour of materialists magic. To put it quite simply what we have is materialists magic - magic as a naturalized human power. Both materialism and magic are (and historically have been) condemned by the Church and that does matter to some people.

There is much more that I could say but that must be all for now.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
With due respect to Portrait and others, one can find HP lacking in literary worth (to some degree) and find its treatment of moral issues problematic, without feeling that the books promote witchcraft or Satanism.

One huge problem that I have seen in discussions on this topic is that (and of course I can best ‘report’ on this from my perspective, in that I do not find the books to be all that ‘great’ though once again, I do not find them ‘evil’). .

If a person expresses any sort of dissatisfaction with the series or makes literary criticisms, very soon that person will be accused of narrow minded bigotry or extremism. And unfortunately, it often happens that once even the mildest of literary criticisms is made by a poster, other posters will chime in with "It’s ebil incarnate and parents should keep their children away’.

So what happens? The reasonable criticisms made by an impartial observer (ok, that is moi) became ‘tarred with the brush’ of the extremist ideology brought up by other posters. And the supposition (unless somehow I happen to be on the 'puter 24/7 and address this tout de suit) is that I ‘agree’ with the extremists just as they appear to ‘agree’ with me.

But it isn’t so.

And because of these patterns, it becomes harder and harder for any person to maintain or demonstrate a ‘middle ground’ normal RATIONAL position.

I don’t really care for the series but I have absolutely no problem with parents–or children–who read and enjoy them, heck, who even love them with a deep and abiding passion. That is fine with me. I don’t insist that people have to agree with my positions.

But in the interests of fairness --and I think most people want to be fair-- I want to make it crystal clear that just because a person might have a literary criticism regarding the books, that does NOT make them into card-carrying members of the “I hate the Satanic Harry Potter club.”

Heck, even a person who says "Those books are problematic with their treatment of witchcraft’ isn’t necessarily a member of the above club! (Probably because that club doesn’t really exist to my knowledge). . .he or she might find them a problem based on a whole lot of factors, but be perfectly amenable to hearing–and indeed, even to being convinced–by people who (politely) give their own reasons and conclusions. But even if they still keep the ‘extreme’ position, they as persons are worthy of respect.

I haven’t really seen on this thread the kind of “How STUPID these people must be to hate darling Harry” posts that I have seen on others (along with, let’s be fair, “How STUPID these people must be to LIKE that awful Harry”) and I’d like to keep it that way. I don’t think that ANYBODY who gives an opinion is STUPID and even if I disagree with any given opinion, I still respect the person as a person, an intelligent and worthwhile person, with whom I might happen to disagree on a couple of LITERARY points. That’s it.
 
I would agree with Tantum ergo that HP is not great literature, but it has managed to become part of a shared literature, which I think gives it value. Many if not most literate English-language readers from all social classes can now be expected to have some knowledge of Harry Potter (clearly the movies helped here too). You can’t say that about Brothers Karamazov, or even less something like Ben Hur.
 
Dear Whitacre_Girl,
Cordial greetings and again thankyou for your reply to my post.
First, I should like to lay to rest once for all this mistaken and very modern notion that a man must read a book from cover to cover before he ventures to give any critical analysis of its contents. The whole argument that one must read a HP novel, or any other novel, in its entirety to have an informed opinion is, quite frankly, utterly risible and plainly wrong. Moreover, the people who assert this would never in a month of Sundays apply that to themselves in any number of other issues. They only say this to make cheap debater’s points in an effort to close someone down and marginalize any opposing viewpoint. It is a tactic employed soley for polemical purposes and until recent times would have been treated with the contempt that it rightly deserves.
Again, I’d hold thatt here is some validity to the claims you were making if they were actually in line with what the Potter books/movies actually contain. It is as if we are talking about two separate peices of literature/entertainment. If we hadn’t had the title in front of us, I’d think you were talking about something completely different. You are basing your knowledge on hearsay. Incorrect hearsay, I might add, based on my firsthand experience with the materal we are disucusing. You say the books promote evil and the occult…I beg you to give me ONE concrete example of that in the book!

See, the magic in the harry potter world functions the same as powers in x-men. Or even technology in our world. It’s a tool, not a way of life. It’s the way they run things, not a religion. Heck, they celebrate christian holidays even!
The vast majority of people would accept that reading trusted reviews and in-depth analysis of any work suffices for the purposes of debate, after all one is engaging in a debate, not preparing to write a book review for a broadsheet newspaper. Similarly, I have never read The Davinci Code, but I have read articles and reviews that clearly show it to be arrant nonsense of the first rank, so I just give it a wide-berth; why on earth do I need to waste my time reading such worthless fiction? Clearly, it is not a matter of regurgitating hearsay or being unsystematic, but merely leaning on trusted and respected reviews and articles, written by others, in order to better understand a given work. This has always been quite permissible until, so it seems, quite recent times.
See, the issue here isn’t the I don’t trust the words on someone else who has read the material at hand…the problem here is that what you are describing is NOT the Harry Potter series, but sounds more like the DaVinci Code (which I have also read). If the reference you were using sounded even remotely similar or used contret examples from the book, we’d have something to actually discuss…but it sounds like the books you are critiquing are something worlds different than the actual books. This is why I can’t accept the arguments. If you can concrete examples…well, that would be easier to discuss. Which part bothers you? WHich part shows relativism?
Second, accolades concerning HP in L’ Osservatore Romano cut no ice whatsoever with me; it is not the official organ of the Catholic Church, but merely a sort of quasi-official Vatican newspaper. At any rate it is not regulated by the Curia. Therefore just because something appears within its pages, that does mean that it has Vatican approval. The mainstream media frequently err in this regard also. So we ought to take what we read in this partisan newspaper with the proverbial grain of salt, especially in recent times under its new editor.
That is fact. I can understand that. The point is, no church official I know of, aside from the exorcist you mention has said anything against it. I know many priests who have read the books and quite enjoy them!
Finally, you state that the books “promote a clear sense of right and and wrong”, I strongly beg to differ. Nowhere, in the series is there any reference to a system of moral absolutes against which actions can be evaluated. True, there are “ethics” and “values” aplenty in the tales but in the final analysis they are little more than an ethos; a materialists sort of morality subsumed in the glamour of materialists magic. To put it quite simply what we have is materialists magic - magic as a naturalized human power. Both materialism and magic are (and historically have been) condemned by the Church and that does matter to some people.
There is much more that I could say but that must be all for now.
You say that it does not have concrete examples…it does. There are laws in the Magical world of Harry Potter. Again, you need to provide concrete examples to back up your claim…hearsay without solid examples is not conducive to good discussion on the serious implications you are bringing up to reading these books.

Portrait

Pax
 
I would agree with Tantum ergo that HP is not great literature, but it has managed to become part of a shared literature, which I think gives it value. Many if not most literate English-language readers from all social classes can now be expected to have some knowledge of Harry Potter (clearly the movies helped here too). You can’t say that about Brothers Karamazov, or even less something like Ben Hur.
See, I think that it is! Although I am guess, as is true with anything deemed “good literature” it’s in the eyes of the reader. Everyone said “Catcher in the Rye” was good literature…I thought it was trash. LOL

See, Harry Potter touches on a lot of themes - many of which I could relate to. When addressing those themes, it spoke volumes to me. I dearly loved for those reasons!
 
Portrait,

I’m guessing you feel the same way about Narnia and the Lord of the Rings series as you do about the Harry Potter series?
 
With due respect to Portrait and others, one can find HP lacking in literary worth (to some degree) and find its treatment of moral issues problematic, without feeling that the books promote witchcraft or Satanism.

One huge problem that I have seen in discussions on this topic is that (and of course I can best ‘report’ on this from my perspective, in that I do not find the books to be all that ‘great’ though once again, I do not find them ‘evil’). .

If a person expresses any sort of dissatisfaction with the series or makes literary criticisms, very soon that person will be accused of narrow minded bigotry or extremism. And unfortunately, it often happens that once even the mildest of literary criticisms is made by a poster, other posters will chime in with "It’s ebil incarnate and parents should keep their children away’.

So what happens? The reasonable criticisms made by an impartial observer (ok, that is moi) became ‘tarred with the brush’ of the extremist ideology brought up by other posters. And the supposition (unless somehow I happen to be on the 'puter 24/7 and address this tout de suit) is that I ‘agree’ with the extremists just as they appear to ‘agree’ with me.

But it isn’t so.

And because of these patterns, it becomes harder and harder for any person to maintain or demonstrate a ‘middle ground’ normal RATIONAL position.

I don’t really care for the series but I have absolutely no problem with parents–or children–who read and enjoy them, heck, who even love them with a deep and abiding passion. That is fine with me. I don’t insist that people have to agree with my positions.

But in the interests of fairness --and I think most people want to be fair-- I want to make it crystal clear that just because a person might have a literary criticism regarding the books, that does NOT make them into card-carrying members of the “I hate the Satanic Harry Potter club.”

Heck, even a person who says "Those books are problematic with their treatment of witchcraft’ isn’t necessarily a member of the above club! (Probably because that club doesn’t really exist to my knowledge). . .he or she might find them a problem based on a whole lot of factors, but be perfectly amenable to hearing–and indeed, even to being convinced–by people who (politely) give their own reasons and conclusions. But even if they still keep the ‘extreme’ position, they as persons are worthy of respect.

I haven’t really seen on this thread the kind of “How STUPID these people must be to hate darling Harry” posts that I have seen on others (along with, let’s be fair, “How STUPID these people must be to LIKE that awful Harry”) and I’d like to keep it that way. I don’t think that ANYBODY who gives an opinion is STUPID and even if I disagree with any given opinion, I still respect the person as a person, an intelligent and worthwhile person, with whom I might happen to disagree on a couple of LITERARY points. That’s it.
What I have seen is some of those who denounce the Harry Potter series very clearly don’t know what their talking about. For those who have read the series some of these naysayers end up looking quite silly. It’s the same as a non-Catholic coming on here making all kinds of ridiculous claims about Catholics and the Church. They look ignorant, which they are. What ends up happening is the knowledgeable Catholics call them out on it and tell them they need to educate themselves on this matter. Some of these naysayers need to do the same. Go and educate themselves on the Harry Potter series so they don’t look so ignorant. If you want to disapprove of the series that’s fine but at least know what your talking about when you do.
 
With due respect to Portrait and others, one can find HP lacking in literary worth (to some degree) and find its treatment of moral issues problematic, without feeling that the books promote witchcraft or Satanism.

One huge problem that I have seen in discussions on this topic is that (and of course I can best ‘report’ on this from my perspective, in that I do not find the books to be all that ‘great’ though once again, I do not find them ‘evil’). .

If a person expresses any sort of dissatisfaction with the series or makes literary criticisms, very soon that person will be accused of narrow minded bigotry or extremism. And unfortunately, it often happens that once even the mildest of literary criticisms is made by a poster, other posters will chime in with "It’s ebil incarnate and parents should keep their children away’.

So what happens? The reasonable criticisms made by an impartial observer (ok, that is moi) became ‘tarred with the brush’ of the extremist ideology brought up by other posters. And the supposition (unless somehow I happen to be on the 'puter 24/7 and address this tout de suit) is that I ‘agree’ with the extremists just as they appear to ‘agree’ with me.

But it isn’t so.

And because of these patterns, it becomes harder and harder for any person to maintain or demonstrate a ‘middle ground’ normal RATIONAL position.

I don’t really care for the series but I have absolutely no problem with parents–or children–who read and enjoy them, heck, who even love them with a deep and abiding passion. That is fine with me. I don’t insist that people have to agree with my positions.

But in the interests of fairness --and I think most people want to be fair-- I want to make it crystal clear that just because a person might have a literary criticism regarding the books, that does NOT make them into card-carrying members of the “I hate the Satanic Harry Potter club.”

Heck, even a person who says "Those books are problematic with their treatment of witchcraft’ isn’t necessarily a member of the above club! (Probably because that club doesn’t really exist to my knowledge). . .he or she might find them a problem based on a whole lot of factors, but be perfectly amenable to hearing–and indeed, even to being convinced–by people who (politely) give their own reasons and conclusions. But even if they still keep the ‘extreme’ position, they as persons are worthy of respect.

I haven’t really seen on this thread the kind of “How STUPID these people must be to hate darling Harry” posts that I have seen on others (along with, let’s be fair, “How STUPID these people must be to LIKE that awful Harry”) and I’d like to keep it that way. I don’t think that ANYBODY who gives an opinion is STUPID and even if I disagree with any given opinion, I still respect the person as a person, an intelligent and worthwhile person, with whom I might happen to disagree on a couple of LITERARY points. That’s it.
Dear tantum ergo,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your courteous post which I found both balanced and fair.

As regards the Harry Potter novels, the Catholic faithful are, of course, quite at liberty to entertain differing opinions. Thus far, the Church has remained silent on the issue and trusts Catholics to use their own prudential judgement and sanctified common sense. That said, neither has it put a moratorium on all discussion upon the subject and men are free to argue their case on whatever side of the debate they happen to fall.

What we must all remember is that whilst we may differ quite strongly with someone on this thorny issue, we might agree with that person on almost everything else. This has been my experience not a few times on these boards. One chap who had vehemently opposed me over HP was in wholehearted agreement with me in a thread on homophobia. To his credit, he said that whilst he could not agree with my stance on Potter, he certainly was one with me on the topic currently under review. This why we must all engage in debate and at the same time avoid rancour; we must strive to disagree with one another without being disagreeable, and that does take grace. We just never know if we will meet that person on another thread and find ourselves in wholehearted agreement with them.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Oh Dear God! Please not this AGAIN!

:bigyikes::ouch:

Proud Squib logging off now to go wait in line for my HBP tickets! :rolleyes:
That’s what I was thinking…lol :D:D:D: Come on folks get a life. How come I don’t see the OP railing against all those violent or gore filled films such as SAW3 or Paranormal Activity??? Harry is about is evil as Alice in Wonderland…:cool:
 
If your children are immature enough to think that the Harry Potter fantasies are based on people who really exist, then by all means keep them away from it, as they could find it a gateway to spellcasting and ouiji boards.

And keep them away from Mary Poppins, Dumbo the Elephant, Pinocchio, Peter Pan,…

OK, I don’t mean to make light of ouiji boards, but to say this: Of course a few impressionable kids shouldn’t watch this stuff, but good grief, we are talking about something that is a danger for a vanishingly small number of young people. If we are old enough to realize what is fantasy and what is not, if the work does not encourage us to dabble in the occult, it is not harmful. This is something a parent can discern. That’s my 2 cents on the aspect of fictional depictions of magic.

Having said that, with any entertainment aimed at young people, and especially “coming of age” works such as Harry Potter, it never hurts to look out how the various themes of the work are handled. Rather than teaching a healthy scepticism, does the work teach that people in authority can simply be expected to be corrupt…the old “never trust anyone over 30”? Does it teach that older people can make mistakes or does it teach that older people think themselves wise but are really the victims of calcified thinking? Does it teach that the young person may be called upon to do some important work, or does it teach that adults can be depended on to louse up or fail at anything important? Does the work embrace philosophical ideals that are incompatible with the Christian faith? These are some common problems that can come up in coming-of-age fiction, but they don’t have anything to do with magic.
 
Again, I’d hold thatt here is some validity to the claims you were making if they were actually in line with what the Potter books/movies actually contain. It is as if we are talking about two separate peices of literature/entertainment. If we hadn’t had the title in front of us, I’d think you were talking about something completely different. You are basing your knowledge on hearsay. Incorrect hearsay, I might add, based on my firsthand experience with the materal we are disucusing. You say the books promote evil and the occult…I beg you to give me ONE concrete example of that in the book!

See, the magic in the harry potter world functions the same as powers in x-men. Or even technology in our world. It’s a tool, not a way of life. It’s the way they run things, not a religion. Heck, they celebrate christian holidays even!

See, the issue here isn’t the I don’t trust the words on someone else who has read the material at hand…the problem here is that what you are describing is NOT the Harry Potter series, but sounds more like the DaVinci Code (which I have also read). If the reference you were using sounded even remotely similar or used contret examples from the book, we’d have something to actually discuss…but it sounds like the books you are critiquing are something worlds different than the actual books. This is why I can’t accept the arguments. If you can concrete examples…well, that would be easier to discuss. Which part bothers you? WHich part shows relativism?

That is fact. I can understand that. The point is, no church official I know of, aside from the exorcist you mention has said anything against it. I know many priests who have read the books and quite enjoy them!

You say that it does not have concrete examples…it does. There are laws in the Magical world of Harry Potter. Again, you need to provide concrete examples to back up your claim…hearsay without solid examples is not conducive to good discussion on the serious implications you are bringing up to reading these books.

Portrait

Dea

Pax
Dear Whitacre_Girl,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your post above.

You state that “they celebrate Christian holidays even!”. This is an argument that is frequently used by defenders of Potter and has been refuted many times. At Hogwarts holidays such as Christmas and Easter are stripped of Christ, rendered down to nothing more than social customs and assimilated into the “broader” context of the occult symbol-cosmology. One of the friendly ghosts sings a mocking parody of a Christmas carol. Not surprisingly, it is Halloween that is the great feast of the year. Unfortunately, it is this wizard world, gnostic in essence and practice, that neutralizes the sacred and displaces it by normalizing what is profoundly destructive and abnormal in the real. This is extremely disturbing in a chidren’s novel or any other novel for that matter.

The line of demarcation in the Potter books is terribly blurred. Even Rowling has admitted that the books contain references to real-world occult symbolism, lore, subjects and practices. This is surely enough to flash up the warning cones as far as Catholics are concerned. Sorry but the ethics and morality in the series does exalt relativism because there is no objective standard of right and wrong with which to weigh actions. Thus, for example, the so called “good” characters habitually steal, lie, cheat, use unseemly language, break laws, deceive each other, behave hypocritically and have no ethical problem with pursuing revenge - all this is apparently done with a clear conscience. No wonder that Christian parents and others have expressed deep disquietude of the HP novels.

Where, it must be asked, does one find in the HP series any reference to a core system of moral absolutes against which actions can be measured, an indispensable ingredient in any childeren’s novel? It will not do to say by way of reply that our world no longer uses the black and white model of former generations, but has now changed from a chequered pattern to a spectrum. Some aspects of our modern culture may have dared to do this, but God has decidedly not and our brief as Catholics is to teach our children God’s standards of right and wrong, not the sinful world’s fickle and unstable notions. Moral absolutes are immutable and hence perpetually applicable and relevant, irrespective of whether the world or some liberal fantasy fiction author approves of them or not.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
…Thus, for example, the so called “good” characters habitually steal, lie, cheat, use unseemly language, break laws, deceive each other, behave hypocritically and have no ethical problem with pursuing revenge - all this is apparently done with a clear conscience. No wonder that Christian parents and others have expressed deep disquietude of the HP novels.

Where, it must be asked, does one find in the HP series any reference to a core system of moral absolutes against which actions can be measured, an indispensable ingredient in any childeren’s novel? It will not do to say by way of reply that our world no longer uses the black and white model of former generations, but has now changed from a chequered pattern to a spectrum. Some aspects of our modern culture may have dared to do this, but God has decidedly not and our brief as Catholics is to teach our children God’s standards of right and wrong, not the sinful world’s fickle and unstable notions. Moral absolutes are immutable and hence perpetually applicable and relevant, irrespective of whether the world or some liberal fantasy fiction author approves of them or not.
Right. So, for instance, you could have a novel full of magic, but in which there is a White Magic which follows moral law and makes moral demands on people and Black Magic which works against it and is chiefly used for selfish purposes or to defeat the good because it is good, and the moral could be fine, or a world in which using magic according to moral law yields good results and using magic in defiance of moral law yields its predictable consequences, as well.

It is not necessary that real religious figures be explicitly invoked, but it is necessary that real moral law be unmistakeably in full operation. It can be more complicated for older viewers, but the consequences of straying into moral grey areas still needs to be on the side of right. You can have conflicted characters, stories with moral ambiguities, if the audience is old enough, things do not have to be black and white and characters can have the depth and imperfections that real people do, you can have the kind of conflicts and difficulties that a real moral life has, but you still need to be very clear about what is right and wrong. You can’t glorify amoral or immoral thinking and expect that this will have no ill effects.
 
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Portrait:
Dear Whitacre_Girl,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your post above.

You state that “they celebrate Christian holidays even!”. This is an argument that is frequently used by defenders of Potter and has been refuted many times. At Hogwarts holidays such as Christmas and Easter are stripped of Christ, rendered down to nothing more than social customs and assimilated into the “broader” context of the occult symbol-cosmology. One of the friendly ghosts sings a mocking parody of a Christmas carol. Not surprisingly, it is Halloween that is the great feast of the year. Unfortunately, it is this wizard world, gnostic in essence and practice, that neutralizes the sacred and displaces it by normalizing what is profoundly destructive and abnormal in the real. This is extremely disturbing in a chidren’s novel or any other novel for that matter.

I believe the ghost that did that was peeves, and this character is known to be malicious to the nth degree. Annoying all characters, and certainly not set out to be an example, but rather a non-example.
The line of demarcation in the Potter books is terribly blurred. Even Rowling has admitted that the books contain references to real-world occult symbolism, lore, subjects and practices. This is surely enough to flash up the warning cones as far as Catholics are concerned. Sorry but the ethics and morality in the series does exalt relativism because there is no objective standard of right and wrong with which to weigh actions. Thus, for example, the so called “good” characters habitually steal, lie, cheat, use unseemly language, break laws, deceive each other, behave hypocritically and have no ethical problem with pursuing revenge - all this is apparently done with a clear conscience. No wonder that Christian parents and others have expressed deep disquietude of the HP novels.
In all cases I can think of, lying, cheating, stealing, breaking laws, deception and so forth is all met with a negative reaction by some event or character. Potter is reprimanded several times by adults for his behavior, and the message is clear in the books that just because you don’t like a rule, doesn’t mean you get to break it. In cases where rules are broken and there is no reprimand the rules are unjust and involve the mistreatment of other human beings or creatures - laws like slavery, “racism,” and classism.

And yes, there are cases of genuine childhood mischief…but come on, if we’re gunna toss out books because of this, then wave bye-bye to the chronicles of narnia! So long Ramona, and ta-ta Nancy Drew, and the Hardy Boys!
Where, it must be asked, does one find in the HP series any reference to a core system of moral absolutes against which actions can be measured, an indispensable ingredient in any childeren’s novel? It will not do to say by way of reply that our world no longer uses the black and white model of former generations, but has now changed from a chequered pattern to a spectrum. Some aspects of our modern culture may have dared to do this, but God has decidedly not and our brief as Catholics is to teach our children God’s standards of right and wrong, not the sinful world’s fickle and unstable notions. Moral absolutes are immutable and hence perpetually applicable and relevant, irrespective of whether the world or some liberal fantasy fiction author approves of them or not.
So you are saying that again, we have to have a set law in every piece of fantasy we read? Again, there goes Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of the Rings - both which (I might add) borrow from pagan ideas in their writing. Chrinicles of Narnia refers multiple times to “gods” and Lord of the Rings has no moral code and an abundance of magic and magic rituals. Rowling, like all fantasy authors, borrows from multiple culture’s backgrounds. Some of those resemble the mordern occult. But to think for a second that such reference is promoting real witchcraft in any way is absolutely laughable.

By your description, you’d have children reading nothing but bible stories. If that works for you, then all the better…but there’s nothing wrong with imagination.

I’d also like to see more specifics from the books that back up your many claims. The ghost was a good one, but again, wrong ghost to use. Peeves is not a hero. While he may not be a villian, he exemplifies everything studen’ts shouldn’t be and is purposefully offensive. Student’s don’t like him and avoid him.
 
If your children are immature enough to think that the Harry Potter fantasies are based on people who really exist, then by all means keep them away from it, as they could find it a gateway to spellcasting and ouiji boards.

And keep them away from Mary Poppins, Dumbo the Elephant, Pinocchio, Peter Pan,…

OK, I don’t mean to make light of ouiji boards, but to say this: Of course a few impressionable kids shouldn’t watch this stuff, but good grief, we are talking about something that is a danger for a vanishingly small number of young people. If we are old enough to realize what is fantasy and what is not, if the work does not encourage us to dabble in the occult, it is not harmful. This is something a parent can discern. That’s my 2 cents on the aspect of fictional depictions of magic.

Having said that, with any entertainment aimed at young people, and especially “coming of age” works such as Harry Potter, it never hurts to look out how the various themes of the work are handled. Rather than teaching a healthy scepticism, does the work teach that people in authority can simply be expected to be corrupt…the old “never trust anyone over 30”? Does it teach that older people can make mistakes or does it teach that older people think themselves wise but are really the victims of calcified thinking? Does it teach that the young person may be called upon to do some important work, or does it teach that adults can be depended on to louse up or fail at anything important? Does the work embrace philosophical ideals that are incompatible with the Christian faith? These are some common problems that can come up in coming-of-age fiction, but they don’t have anything to do with magic.
Dear EasterJoy,

Cordial greetings.

It is not merely a question of maturity but rather that children read works of fiction with a different consciousness than adults. This is something that is quietly overlooked by the pro-Potterites. They seem to pass over the fact that the young are in a state of formation and their understanding of reality is being forged at every turn. It is for this reason that children’s author’s have a moral obligation to ensure that they do not blur the distinction between right and wrong and truth and falsehood. Men of the calibre of C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkein realised this and respected it, whereas R.K. Rowling, owing to her liberal world view does not.

For the record, I have no fundamental objection per se to wholesome fantasy literature which reinforces the absolute unchanging moral order of the universe in the child’s mind. On the other hand I strongly disapprove of corrupt morally ambiguous fantasy with a dab of veneer, like Harry Potter, because that undermines it. The cosmetics are the “values” woven into the tale by the author.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Portrait, Christ’s peace be with you.

Too bad you haven’t read the books or you could comment meaningfully on them.
They have nothing to do with the occult. It’s a fantasy where some people have magical ability, it’s genetic and does not come from an outside source.
(There is little theology in HP, I think this was deliberate to avoid magic involving the invocation of good or evil forces.)

Like Transformers 2, it’s a tale of opposition to evil. It showcases 3 approaches-
  • Opposing and confronting evil even if it means risking ones life
  • Ignoring and hoping evil will simply go away- or at least leave you alone.
  • Cooperating and embracing evil.
The protaganist opposes evil, and is even willing to sacrifice his own life in that cause- seeing and accepting that this life is not the end. His ultimate victory comes from being willing to let go of this world, to sacrifice himself.

His opposite number is so ‘of this world’ that he is willing to corrupt his very soul to avoid death, to stay attached to this world and exercise power within it. His ultimate loss is shown to be, not defeat in this world, but what his existence will be in the next.

You may or may not see that as compatible with catholic teaching.

I have more problems with ‘Grease’ and it’s lesson, or the average Disney show portraying adults as clueless than I do with HP.
 
I have more problems with ‘Grease’ and it’s lesson, or the average Disney show portraying adults as clueless than I do with HP.
Oh, HOW I LOVE Grease… but was BLOWN away when I actually read the lycrics to that song… I had no idea…LOL! It’s a real WHAT??? kind of wagon??? :eek:

I just don’t have a problem with Harry Potter. They are not real people depicting real life in any way. It’s all pretend. But if you don’t realize that it’s pretend, Regardless of age… then you shouldn’t read it. I can see how that would be confusing.

However, I reflect back on the fact that my 5th grade class play was the entire production of MacBeth… in a Catholic School no less… and wonder. WHO SUBJECTS children to the autrocities of that play??? Seriously, I don’t care how amazing MacBeth was. That you can study his writings and earn a degree… WHATEVER!!! Did not belong in a 5th grade classroom… acting out murder and such… or did it?

Somehow, I am unphased by playing the lead. Or am I? I don’t know… I don’t have a problem with HP… so maybe that’s what happens when you study REAL literature…
 
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