Warnings about Harry Potter

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Portrait said:
Dear EasterJoy,

Cordial greetings.

It is not merely a question of maturity but rather that children read works of fiction with a different consciousness than adults. This is something that is quietly overlooked by the pro-Potterites. They seem to pass over the fact that the young are in a state of formation and their understanding of reality is being forged at every turn. It is for this reason that children’s author’s have a moral obligation to ensure that they do not blur the distinction between right and wrong and truth and falsehood. Men of the calibre of C.S. Lewis and J.R. Tolkein realised this and respected it, whereas R.K. Rowling, owing to her liberal world view does not.

For the record, I have no fundamental objection per se to wholesome fantasy literature which reinforces the absolute unchanging moral order of the universe in the child’s mind. On the other hand I strongly disapprove of corrupt morally ambiguous fantasy with a dab of veneer, like Harry Potter, because that undermines it. The cosmetics are the “values” woven into the tale by the author.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
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I think we’re on the same page. It is not about whether or not magic is part of a fictional storyline. It is about what worldview the fictional storyline advances. It can have a very subtle and powerful effect, even on adults, when a novelist or director forges a positive connection with a character and then puts negative moral thinking or actions into a positive light.

It is like letting your kids hang around with charismatic and successful friends who have bad morals. Their attitudes wear off, even if they never actually do anything wrong. I think that, if skillfully woven, the influence of a fictional character can be greater and more lasting than that of a real person, even for an adult.
 
And that is the same basis for magic in Harry Potter. It’s an innate ability of certain people. It’s a genetic trait, much like in LotR, X-Men, and so on. It’s not something that can be acquired unless you are born with it.
 
Harry Potter, no. Its a good versus evil type of movie. No different then CS Lewis etc. I’ve never really read the books and I’ve only seen the first movie ( my girls aren’t into Harry Potter anyways) and really its no different then many movies out there right now.
Now the Golden Compass, yes that is truely one evil movie.
All it took was for us to see the movie once and it is never allowed in my home ever again.That was before I knew there was even a controversy of it. The only reason it made its way into my home was that Daniel Craig (a k.a James Bond) was in it so my husband brought it home.
 
Scary movies- depends. I would rather watch a good comedy. I have read way too much true crime and books by FBI profilers to find any entertainment in serial killer type movies. Ghost or alien stuff if emphasis on suspense vice gore
 
styrgwillidar said:
Scary movies- depends. I would rather watch a good comedy. I have read way too much true crime and books by FBI profilers to find any entertainment in serial killer type movies. Ghost or alien stuff if emphasis on suspense vice gore
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I prefer psychological thrillers as opposed to things with gore. Don’t show me what is scary - keep me guessing! THat is what will scare me…this is why Signs scared the piddle out of me the first time I saw it.
 
Whitacre_Girl said:
I prefer psychological thrillers as opposed to things with gore. Don’t show me what is scary - keep me guessing! THat is what will scare me…this is why Signs scared the piddle out of me the first time I saw it.
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👍👍👍👍 The ending to the signs made me cry though.

I could just feel her pain. 😦

The notebook made me cry too.
That one always gets to me.
 
EasterJoy said:
I think we’re on the same page. It is not about whether or not magic is part of a fictional storyline. It is about what worldview the fictional storyline advances. It can have a very subtle and powerful effect, even on adults, when a novelist or director forges a positive connection with a character and then puts negative moral thinking or actions into a positive light.

It is like letting your kids hang around with charismatic and successful friends who have bad morals. Their attitudes wear off, even if they never actually do anything wrong. I think that, if skillfully woven, the influence of a fictional character can be greater and more lasting than that of a real person, even for an adult.
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Dear EasterJoy,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for the above.

Indeed we are singing from the same hymn sheet and I would concur wholeheartedly with all of your remarks.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
styrgwillidar said:
Portrait, Christ’s peace be with you.

Too bad you haven’t read the books or you could comment meaningfully on them.
They have nothing to do with the occult. It’s a fantasy where some people have magical ability, it’s genetic and does not come from an outside source.
(There is little theology in HP, I think this was deliberate to avoid magic involving the invocation of good or evil forces.)

Like Transformers 2, it’s a tale of opposition to evil. It showcases 3 approaches-
  • Opposing and confronting evil even if it means risking ones life
  • Ignoring and hoping evil will simply go away- or at least leave you alone.
  • Cooperating and embracing evil.
The protaganist opposes evil, and is even willing to sacrifice his own life in that cause- seeing and accepting that this life is not the end. His ultimate victory comes from being willing to let go of this world, to sacrifice himself.

His opposite number is so ‘of this world’ that he is willing to corrupt his very soul to avoid death, to stay attached to this world and exercise power within it. His ultimate loss is shown to be, not defeat in this world, but what his existence will be in the next.

You may or may not see that as compatible with catholic teaching.

I have more problems with ‘Grease’ and it’s lesson, or the average Disney show portraying adults as clueless than I do with HP.
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Dear styrgwillidar,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your response above.

As far as the literary Christian classics The Chronicles of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings are concerned, the good versus evil element is clearly dilineated unlike these Potter tales. In the works of Lewis and Tolkein, to put it quite simply, evil is evil and good is good and, most importantly, the good is promoted whilst evil is not. Thus the “battle between good and evil” argument is utterly and hopelessly without merit. If there is any battle in Rowling’s books then it is a conflict between a horrific evil (Voldemont and his Death Eaters) and a lesser sort of evil (the Harry character and the other “good” characters who only appear virtuous because it is so much less offensive and frightening than the greater evil).

At any rate, to go to the length, as some fanatical aficionados do, of asserting that HP is a “Christian” series in the tradition of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings is risible and untenable and evinces a serious want of good judgement.

Someone may incredulously ask, if the Potter books are so un-Christian and worthless why have they enjoyed such world-wide success?; Is it really possible that so many people, including many intelligent Catholics and Protestants, have been duped as regards the Potter novels? A resounding yes. The voice of history tells us that there is such a thing as mass public deception - ask the Germans, they know all about that.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Portrait said:
Dear styrgwillidar,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your response above.

As far as the literary Christian classics The Chronicles of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings are concerned, the good versus evil element is clearly dilineated unlike these Potter tales. In the works of Lewis and Tolkein, to put it quite simply, evil is evil and good is good and, most importantly, the good is promoted whilst evil is not. Thus the “battle between good and evil” argument is utterly and hopelessly without merit. If there is any battle in Rowling’s books then it is a conflict between a horrific evil (Voldemont and his Death Eaters) and a lesser sort of evil (the Harry character and the other “good” characters who only appear virtuous because it is so much less offensive and frightening than the greater evil).

At any rate, to go to the length, as some fanatical aficionados do, of asserting that HP is a “Christian” series in the tradition of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings is risible and untenable and evinces a serious want of good judgement.

Pax
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Really? and Narnia and LOTR didn’t have those characters, say like Edward in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, or Borimir in LOTH? 🤷 You use evil to describe the “good” characters in HP, yet I cannot think of which character you might be referring to or what they did to deserve being called evil, do you have any specific examples. They are human characters, and thus have faults and weaknesses. 🤷 If they didn’t, the story wouldn’t be at least believable or engaging.

And people see this series has having Christian themes is not as fantastical as you think. Harry is only alive because his mother died to protect him, the ultimate gift of love. As HP “fights” the “bad guy” throughout the series, Harry always wins because of something like he knows how to love, he was loved by his mother, he shows loyalty to what is good and right, and refuses to be corrupted. At the conclusion of the series HP makes the ultimate sacrifice in order to save those he loves (and indeed to save everyone), How are these not Christian themes?

Like I said, I am not a huge fan of the series, I find it doesn’t capture my interest. But I have read all the books and seen the movies, when I am in certain literary mood, I read these books. So you can’t call me a “Potterite.” A book like HP in my personal opinion is in my opinion is a lot less harmful, than when I discovered my favorite childhood series pushed a extreme feminist position in her books (and in later books started pushing homosexuality).
 
Whitacre_Girl said:
Dear Whitacre_Girl,

I believe the ghost that did that was peeves, and this character is known to be malicious to the nth degree. Annoying all characters, and certainly not set out to be an example, but rather a non-example.

In all cases I can think of, lying, cheating, stealing, breaking laws, deception and so forth is all met with a negative reaction by some event or character. Potter is reprimanded several times by adults for his behavior, and the message is clear in the books that just because you don’t like a rule, doesn’t mean you get to break it. In cases where rules are broken and there is no reprimand the rules are unjust and involve the mistreatment of other human beings or creatures - laws like slavery, “racism,” and classism.

And yes, there are cases of genuine childhood mischief…but come on, if we’re gunna toss out books because of this, then wave bye-bye to the chronicles of narnia! So long Ramona, and ta-ta Nancy Drew, and the Hardy Boys!

So you are saying that again, we have to have a set law in every piece of fantasy we read? Again, there goes Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of the Rings - both which (I might add) borrow from pagan ideas in their writing. Chrinicles of Narnia refers multiple times to “gods” and Lord of the Rings has no moral code and an abundance of magic and magic rituals. Rowling, like all fantasy authors, borrows from multiple culture’s backgrounds. Some of those resemble the mordern occult. But to think for a second that such reference is promoting real witchcraft in any way is absolutely laughable.

By your description, you’d have children reading nothing but bible stories. If that works for you, then all the better…but there’s nothing wrong with imagination.

I’d also like to see more specifics from the books that back up your many claims. The ghost was a good one, but again, wrong ghost to use. Peeves is not a hero. While he may not be a villian, he exemplifies everything studen’ts shouldn’t be and is purposefully offensive. Student’s don’t like him and avoid him.
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Dear Whitacre_Girl,

Cordial greetings and again thankyou for your response to my post.

The fact that this ghost sings a mocking parody of a Christmas carol is still very irreverent and in poor taste, especially in a book intended for young readers, some of whom may be Christians.

More seriously, the Harry Potter character is said to be essentially good and morally sound and guilty only of, in your words, “genuine childhood mischief”. I beg to differ, but let us see. He blackmails, he blows up his aunt, uses trickery and deception, “breaks a hundered rules” (to quote the mildly censorious, but ultimately approving Dumbledore). Frequently he lies to extricate himself from trouble, and allows himself to be provoked into taking revenge against his student enemies. Now you will surely appreciate when many of us say that we fail to see how such a character is a good role model for Christian youth. Clearly this does not sound good for the character who is supposed to be the hero of the tales. Can you inform us as to what positive moral message this is conveying to young impressionable minds, still in a state of formation?

In these details and a plethora of others throughout the series, the unsuspecting child reader is insidusiously encouraged in his baser instincts, whilst lip service is paid to some ambiguous morality.

Moreover, Harry’s faults are seldom punished, if they are at all then it is usually by the negative authority figures in the tale. The positive authority figures actually *reward *HP for his disobedience when it brings about some perceived good. His lies, his acts of vengeance and the misuse of his powers are frequently ignored. The only message that seems to ring loud and clear throughout the series is “the end justifies the means”. Now our morally bankrupt and irreligious world may see little wrong with this but our God decidedly does - “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness” (Isa. 5: 20). There is evidently no nebulous morality from God’s standpoint and neither should there be from ours.

The reasons why some commentators are unwilling censure the HP novels is twofold. Many, I suspect, are fearful of being branded anti-intellectual or reactionary bigots. This would certainly be an issue for those working in academia where an outright denunciation of the books might discredit them in the eyes of collegues and lead to them being declared persona non grata. The other reason is that many, quite understandably, do not have the courage to to say something that they know will make them extremely unpopular with friends and family, perhaps even alienate them from their own children who may regard them as moralistic fuddy-duddies and downright “mean”. However, I actually believe that in many cases Christians, Catholic and Protestant, have become so influenced by the spirit of the age that their powers of spiritual discernment have become severely impaired and even blunted. Thus they have convinced themselves, and labour to convince others, that there is nothing amiss with the Potter books and films and that those who dare to speak ill of them must be joyless priggs or hidebound fundamentalists. That is very sad indeed beloved.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
jilly4ski said:
Really? and Narnia and LOTR didn’t have those characters, say like Edward in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, or Borimir in LOTH? 🤷 You use evil to describe the “good” characters in HP, yet I cannot think of which character you might be referring to or what they did to deserve being called evil, do you have any specific examples. They are human characters, and thus have faults and weaknesses. 🤷 If they didn’t, the story wouldn’t be at least believable or engaging.

And people see this series has having Christian themes is not as fantastical as you think. Harry is only alive because his mother died to protect him, the ultimate gift of love. As HP “fights” the “bad guy” throughout the series, Harry always wins because of something like he knows how to love, he was loved by his mother, he shows loyalty to what is good and right, and refuses to be corrupted. At the conclusion of the series HP makes the ultimate sacrifice in order to save those he loves (and indeed to save everyone), How are these not Christian themes?

Like I said, I am not a huge fan of the series, I find it doesn’t capture my interest. But I have read all the books and seen the movies, when I am in certain literary mood, I read these books. So you can’t call me a “Potterite.” A book like HP in my personal opinion is in my opinion is a lot less harmful, than when I discovered my favorite childhood series pushed a extreme feminist position in her books (and in later books started pushing homosexuality).
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Which is exactly like I said early. It’s the same as a non-Catholic coming onto this board and saying “you Catholics worship Mary.” We know that’s not true and that this person is ignorant. In such a situation the best thing to do is try to educate that person.

There are very clear defining points on what is good and what is evil in Harry Potter. There are also some definite Christian themes that run though the whole series. It amazes how someone could miss them. In this way it’s a lot like Narnia.

Potrait you need to stop listening to hearsay and start doing your own research.
 
Portrait said:
More seriously, the Harry Potter character is said to be essentially good and morally sound and guilty only of, in your words, “genuine childhood mischief”. I beg to differ, but let us see. He blackmails, he blows up his aunt, uses trickery and deception, “breaks a hundered rules” (to quote the mildly censorious, but ultimately approving Dumbledore). Frequently he lies to extricate himself from trouble, and allows himself to be provoked into taking revenge against his student enemies. Now you will surely appreciate when many of us say that we fail to see how such a character is a good role model for Christian youth. Clearly this does not sound good for the character who is supposed to be the hero of the tales. Can you inform us as to what positive moral message this is conveying to young impressionable minds, still in a state of formation?

Moreover, Harry’s faults are seldom punished, if they are at all then it is usually by the negative authority figures in the tale. The positive authority figures actually *reward *HP for his disobedience when it brings about some perceived good. His lies, his acts of vengeance and the misuse of his powers are frequently ignored. The only message that seems to ring loud and clear throughout the series is “the end justifies the means”. Now our morally bankrupt and irreligious world may see little wrong with this but our God decidedly does - “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness” (Isa. 5: 20). There is evidently no nebulous morality from God’s standpoint and neither should there be from ours.

Pax
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I can’t place the blackmail reference, but HP does not “blow up” his aunt as in make her explode. He accidentally makes her blow up, like you would blow up a balloon (ie inflates her). I cannot place his lying to get out of trouble nor his taking revenge on fellow students. The one book about revenge (book 5/6 I think), I think treats that subject fairly well, as in the reader sees that revenge is unhealthy and doesn’t solve your problems or make you feel better.

You say his faults are rarely punished and then only by the negative authority figures, but this is again untrue. HP gets punished the same as all the other students for committing infractions against the school rules by teachers that are considered good characters. 🤷 (Like when him and Ron drive the car in to school, hitting the tree, I believe they had to miss the feast, lost points for their house and got several weeks of detention).
 
2 days left until the release!

The trailer looks awesome. :dancing:
 
Portrait, greetings,

No individual is all good or all bad. Any portrayal of individuals as pure good (or evil) tends to become boring very quickly due to the unreality of it, as well as eliminating any real possibility for character development through the tale. So to say some are evil and others are less evil is tending to take a calvinistic (did I just make up a word?) view of things, man is irredemiably corrupt and incapable of being good. The story is really about the contrast in choices made by two similar individuals and where it leads them.

As parents we guide our children. I have had some good conversations with my kids over the themes in HP. Particularly the conclusion where Rowlings shows how Voldemort will spend eternity- proir to the final conflict. I.E. whether Voldemort is to win on earth or not, his true loss is the damage he willingly did to his immortal soul and the consequences he has chosen. There is also, speaking of evil and less evil, the theme of redemption for several characters. That is, people always have the option to reverse course, reject the evil and return to pursuing good. Even HP gives Voldemort the opportunity to change his course at the end, to allow him to salvage his soul vice destroying him.

I won’t argue that HP was intended as a Christian writing. However, most folks take away things from a story based on what they bring into it. I mentioned Transformer 2 earlier because if you know WWII and aviation history, the names of the ships used in the film as well as some of the aircraft depicted in the Smithsonian scene speak volumes. Additionally, the use of the phrase ‘Let’s roll’ was something I immediately understood while my young children who were 3 and 5 on 9/11 missed. While a lot of folks either hated or were simply ambivalent about the film- I took away quite a bit from that whether it was intentionally placed there or not.

The good characters are in fact just that. Christ said that a good tree bears good fruit while a bad tree bears bad fruit. The good characters choose to perform good works- acts of charity, nobility, sacrifice, caring and love. Making the effort to protect not just their own kind, but others as well. No greater love has a man than to give up his life for his friends.
The evil characters are evil by choice. There is no demonic possession, or consorting with evil supernatural powers which corrput them. Those evil characters choose that path, a path the good characters reject. A point made in a couple of places- conversation between Harry and Voldemort. Voldemort claiming that Dumbledore was too weak, scared and stupid a wizard to have done what Voldemort did. With Harry stating that Dumbledore could have but rejected that path because he was a better man.

Is HP great literature? Here we get into semantics- what is your definition of great literature. I’ve been told Dickens is great literature, but frankly, the man got paid by the word and to me there’s a lot of filler. The Russians- Tolstoy, Chekov etc? I’ve been told they are but I just can’t get into them. Perhaps I’m fundamentally flawed but I can’t get much out of something that’s putting me to sleep or giving me the urge to get up and go do my laundry.

I have a great love for reading. It started with WWII history when I was about 8, then spread to Zane Grey western novels, Sci-fi and fantasy, true crime, biographies, horror well actually about any genre you care to name. There’s good and bad writing in every genre. The story which impacted me the most emotionally was a short story ‘The Cold Equations’ (made into a truly awful film which completely eliminated the core concept of the story). But, if HP has introduced the joy of reading to millions of children, I see the tremendous benefit to that, as they will branch out to reading other things. Being exposed to more concepts. A parent being able to recommend other good books. And since HP definitely does not promote the occult- ie pursuit of powers obtained from some supernatural source, I reject the premise it will somehow lead them to the devil. Especially since it’s central theme is the importance and nobility of sacrifice in opposing evil. And humans being presented with the choice of pursuing good or evil and it’s eternal consequences. The Bible is just as likely to lead them to the devil. Unlike HP, the devil is depicted in the Bible, and he is depicted as a powerful real entity in this world with the capability to reward and take care of his followers here.

I have a lot more problems with popular culture pushing concepts like girlfriend/boyfriend at middle school or even elementary school stage. Grease and other shows sending the message that a girl has to be provocative or slutty to get the guy. That getting the guy/girl is the end all/be all. That parents are to be ignored as irrelevant and out of touch, that they are easily duped and not worthy of respect. Politicians misrepresenting the teachings of the Church. There are so many influences on our kids. Parental guidance and instituting strong moral values, so that our kids interpret those influences through a moral lens, is essential. And what you get out of HP or any other work is largely dependent on what you bring to it.

Peace
 
Portrait said:
Dear Whitacre_Girl,

Cordial greetings and again thankyou for your response to my post.

The fact that this ghost sings a mocking parody of a Christmas carol is still very irreverent and in poor taste, especially in a book intended for young readers, some of whom may be Christians.

More seriously, the Harry Potter character is said to be essentially good and morally sound and guilty only of, in your words, “genuine childhood mischief”. I beg to differ, but let us see. He blackmails, he blows up his aunt, uses trickery and deception, “breaks a hundered rules” (to quote the mildly censorious, but ultimately approving Dumbledore). Frequently he lies to extricate himself from trouble, and allows himself to be provoked into taking revenge against his student enemies. Now you will surely appreciate when many of us say that we fail to see how such a character is a good role model for Christian youth. Clearly this does not sound good for the character who is supposed to be the hero of the tales. Can you inform us as to what positive moral message this is conveying to young impressionable minds, still in a state of formation?

In these details and a plethora of others throughout the series, the unsuspecting child reader is insidusiously encouraged in his baser instincts, whilst lip service is paid to some ambiguous morality.

Moreover, Harry’s faults are seldom punished, if they are at all then it is usually by the negative authority figures in the tale. The positive authority figures actually *reward *HP for his disobedience when it brings about some perceived good. His lies, his acts of vengeance and the misuse of his powers are frequently ignored. The only message that seems to ring loud and clear throughout the series is “the end justifies the means”. Now our morally bankrupt and irreligious world may see little wrong with this but our God decidedly does - “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness” (Isa. 5: 20). There is evidently no nebulous morality from God’s standpoint and neither should there be from ours.

The reasons why some commentators are unwilling censure the HP novels is twofold. Many, I suspect, are fearful of being branded anti-intellectual or reactionary bigots. This would certainly be an issue for those working in academia where an outright denunciation of the books might discredit them in the eyes of collegues and lead to them being declared persona non grata. The other reason is that many, quite understandably, do not have the courage to to say something that they know will make them extremely unpopular with friends and family, perhaps even alienate them from their own children who may regard them as moralistic fuddy-duddies and downright “mean”. However, I actually believe that in many cases Christians, Catholic and Protestant, have become so influenced by the spirit of the age that their powers of spiritual discernment have become severely impaired and even blunted. Thus they have convinced themselves, and labour to convince others, that there is nothing amiss with the Potter books and films and that those who dare to speak ill of them must be joyless priggs or hidebound fundamentalists. That is very sad indeed beloved.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
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Portrait, thank you for your response, but I’m afraid I’m not going to keep going with this. These things you are bringing up are either grossly inaccurate or so horrifically out of context with the series I am starting to suspect that the source you are using hasn’t even read all the books. I’m sorry, but I can’t spend the time going through each of your examples and pointing out how they are either flat out NOT in the books, or taken so far out of context that it’s borderline insane (not you, your source)

Please, please, please. Read the books for yourself if you want to continue the discussion. Take notes. If you want to have this conversation still, I welcome it. But this is starting to, as another poster pointed out, turn into the same scenario where a protestant with a head full of inaccurate information about catholics, then accuses them of things like “worshipping mary” and so on based on shoddy second-hand information. I can’t begin to explain how what you are saying is as accurate as “catholics worship mary” or “catholics think the pope is jesus.”

This is exactly why I take the time to read books like The “Davinci Code” rather than reading the notes of someone else who has read it. It prepares you for reliable discussion and meaningful discourse because you understand the material. Just taking someone else’s word for it is like reading devotionals, but never actually reading the Bible for yourself.
 
I admit…I haven’t read the x-men comics. :o

I’m more of a movie-only kind of person with that. So I am unfamiliar with learning powers, i thought it was all genetics.

That is actually what sold me on the “Harry Potter isn’t evil” debate. I believed it was…then I actually took the time to watch the first movie. I thought “Hm…no evidence here of evil…I’ll have to read the books” so I did. I took a week and went through all of them on a school break. (Well, 1-5 since that was all that was out at the time). I was just coming out of wicca, so I was VERY guarded about witchcraft because of bad experiences and a newfound love of Christ. By the time I finished the 5th book I was laughing at myself that I ever thought it was real.

I mean, the whole point of the novel is that magic is an innate ability, and to try to do it if you aren’t gifted, is a joke. Heck, the thing I loved the most is that Rowling suggests that any similarities between the occult and real magic is because some really stupid “muggles” saw a witch or wizard practicing their innate ability, and thought they could do the same thing! A bunch of people who I hung out with when I was a wiccan were actually highly offended by the books as an affront to their faith.

I just giggled. 😃
 
jilly4ski said:
Really? and Narnia and LOTR didn’t have those characters, say like Edward in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, or Borimir in LOTH? 🤷 You use evil to describe the “good” characters in HP, yet I cannot think of which character you might be referring to or what they did to deserve being called evil, do you have any specific examples. They are human characters, and thus have faults and weaknesses. 🤷 If they didn’t, the story wouldn’t be at least believable or engaging.

And people see this series has having Christian themes is not as fantastical as you think. Harry is only alive because his mother died to protect him, the ultimate gift of love. As HP “fights” the “bad guy” throughout the series, Harry always wins because of something like he knows how to love, he was loved by his mother, he shows loyalty to what is good and right, and refuses to be corrupted. At the conclusion of the series HP makes the ultimate sacrifice in order to save those he loves (and indeed to save everyone), How are these not Christian themes?

Like I said, I am not a huge fan of the series, I find it doesn’t capture my interest. But I have read all the books and seen the movies, when I am in certain literary mood, I read these books. So you can’t call me a “Potterite.” A book like HP in my personal opinion is in my opinion is a lot less harmful, than when I discovered my favorite childhood series pushed a extreme feminist position in her books (and in later books started pushing homosexuality).
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Dear jilly4ski,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your post above.

Whilst it is true that Rowling tries to show the difference between good and evil, and to say that good is better than evil, the problem lies in what she presents as good and what she presents as evil. When the struggle is portrayed between the two as thrilling and highly rewarding emotionally, a child reader will be imprinted deeply with messages about the way in which the “good” characters defeat the evil. Although Rowling posits the “good” use of occult powers against their misuse, thus imparting to her tales an aura of morality, the cumulative effect is to shift our understanding of the battle lines between good and evil; the border is never defined. This is a post-modern way of thinking and can only be an un-Christian negative influence upon our children.

Moreover, the author’s characterization and plot continually reinforce the message that if a person is “nice” or “cool” (whatever that is supposed to mean), if he his intentions are good, is brave and loyal to his friends, then he can more or less do as he sees fit to combat horrific evil - magic powers being the weapon of choice. This is consistent with Rowling’s confused notions of authority. In reality magic is an attempt to bypass the limitations of human nature and the authority of God, in order to obtain power over material creation and the will of others through manipulation of the supernatural.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Portrait said:
Dear jilly4ski,

Although Rowling posits the “good” use of occult powers against their misuse, thus imparting to her tales an aura of morality, the cumulative effect is to shift our understanding of the battle lines between good and evil; the border is never defined.
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Sigh, how many times does it have to be pointed out, that there are no “occult” powers in HP. The magic of HP is not magic as defined as occult or magic as defined by the bible or by Fr. Amorth. It is an innate ability, not connected with summoning or communing with demons.
 
styrgwillidar said:
Portrait, greetings,

As parents we guide our children. I have had some good conversations with my kids over the themes in HP. Particularly the conclusion where Rowlings shows how Voldemort will spend eternity- proir to the final conflict. I.E. whether Voldemort is to win on earth or not, his true loss is the damage he willingly did to his immortal soul and the consequences he has chosen. There is also, speaking of evil and less evil, the theme of redemption for several characters. That is, people always have the option to reverse course, reject the evil and return to pursuing good. Even HP gives Voldemort the opportunity to change his course at the end, to allow him to salvage his soul vice destroying him.

I won’t argue that HP was intended as a Christian writing. However, most folks take away things from a story based on what they bring into it. I mentioned Transformer 2 earlier because if you know WWII and aviation history, the names of the ships used in the film as well as some of the aircraft depicted in the Smithsonian scene speak volumes. Additionally, the use of the phrase ‘Let’s roll’ was something I immediately understood while my young children who were 3 and 5 on 9/11 missed. While a lot of folks either hated or were simply ambivalent about the film- I took away quite a bit from that whether it was intentionally placed there or not.

I have a lot more problems with popular culture pushing concepts like girlfriend/boyfriend at middle school or even elementary school stage. Grease and other shows sending the message that a girl has to be provocative or slutty to get the guy. That getting the guy/girl is the end all/be all. That parents are to be ignored as irrelevant and out of touch, that they are easily duped and not worthy of respect. Politicians misrepresenting the teachings of the Church. There are so many influences on our kids. Parental guidance and instituting strong moral values, so that our kids interpret those influences through a moral lens, is essential. And what you get out of HP or any other work is largely dependent on what you bring to it.

Peace
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Dear styrgwillidar,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for you post, much of which I agree with, especially the last paragrpaph re. popular culture.

With occult themes now apart of mainstream culture, the Potter series is juxtaposed between an increasing amount of blatantly evil material for the young on the one hand, and on the other a tide of cultural material that redefines good and evil in subtler ways. Thus the Potter books can appear to be a healthier specimen of what has been more or less normalized around us. Surely now is the time when we need to exercise more careful and prayerful discernment, because in the confusing array of the extremely disordered, our perceptions can be seriously blurred.

Contemporary society is saturated in all manner of false options, especially the lure of the “lesser evil” argument. In comparison to the great evil of Satanism, a lesser evil such as witchcraft (and in Harry’s case “good sorcery”) can seem preferable by far, a message further reinforced by the Potter books’ denunciation of the extremes of diabolical conduct. What we are apt to forget is that manipulation by the “lesser evil” concept is a classic adversarial tactic in the great war between good and evil - the real war in which we are all immersed. If the lesser evil is presented with a little window-dressing of values, we can turn to it assuming that we are making a choice for the good.

Down through the ages until the 20th century, it was widely understood that the cultivation of personal virtues such as prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance was the indispensable foundation for living a truly happy and fruitful life. The displacement of this understanding by the aambiguos concept of “values” has in no small way contributed to the moral illiteracy and confusion that now dominate so much our world.

Children, by dint of their tender years, are dependent upon us adults to make careful evaluations in the area of culture because they do not have the advatage of age and experience. As I have remarked many times in these debates, they are in a state of formation, assimilating impressions about the nature of reality at a very fundamental level, and few things in life are as powerful as culture for defining reality, for defining good and evil. Now in the case of the Potter series I think that discernment has been exceedingly difficult for many people because the novels seem at first glance to reject evil by dissociating magic from the blatant diabolic. Yet in the real world they are always connected.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
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