Warnings about Harry Potter

[Portrait]

Honestly. Go take a look at the industry of why Harry Potter and the like are a threat to your kids soul and why you need our (read their) books/DVDs/CDs/Activity book to make sure the souls of these little ones is safe. THEN look at the prices they charge,

My good sir can you say cashing in?

Dear cyberwolf001,

Cordial greetings.

I was not aware that books, CD’s etc. written or produced by Christian commentators opposed to the Potter phenomenom were prohibitively expensive. For example, Michael O’ Brien’s recent book, Harry Potter and the Paganization of Culture (Fides et Traditio Press, 2010) is only just over $20:00. That does not seem excessive as far as religious books of this size go.

Can you give some examples of exorbitant prices that you had in mind, by Christian publishers, Catholic or protestant?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Joe_5859]

Honestly. Go take a look at the industry of why Harry Potter and the like are a threat to your kids soul and why you need our (read their) books/DVDs/CDs/Activity book to make sure the souls of these little ones is safe. THEN look at the prices they charge,

My good sir can you say cashing in?

Well, I am in agreement with the “cynical” modifier, but less so with the “truthful” one.

People like Michael O’Brien are not seeking to “cash in”, they are coming from a place of genuine concern over the state of our culture (and the salvation of souls). O’Brien’s anti-Potter book is published by some obscure Polish publishing company (and it is only available from them). I don’t think he’s raking the money in hand over fist. I’m sure his novels from Ignatius Press net him much more revenue (as they should because they really are great books).

I disagree with O’Brien’s views of Harry Potter, but I don’t question his motives. I don’t think his position has earned him many new fans. Quite the opposite. I would bet that people like John Granger are making much more money writing in support of Harry Potter than vice versa.

I think the anti-Da Vinci Code market was a bit more lucrative.

As an aside, I also think it says something that Ignatius Press (who publishes pretty much all of O’Brien’s stuff) seems to have taken a pass on his anti-Potter book. In fact, all the Catholic publishers in the U.S. seem to have passed on producing anti-Potter books in general. Many of them (Ignatius Press, OSV, Bridegroom Press, etc.) have published books criticizing “The Da Vinci Code” but not one of them (that I am aware of) has published something similar denigrating Harry Potter.

 

[Joe_5859]

Exactly right.

 

[SamH]

Having read the Da Vinci code (has anyone filed a class action lawsuit over the time wasted on that book yet?) I have to agree. Long, laborious and reaching for credibility that it never attains. The South Park episode about the origins of the Easter Bunny has makes much more sense.

I watched the latest HP movie, not nearly as good as previous installments. The main characters are isolated for long periods of the movie with boring dialog. They just can’t carry the movie without the detailed sets and interaction with other interesting/eccentric characters.

 

[Portrait]

Well, I am in agreement with the “cynical” modifier, but less so with the “truthful” one.

People like Michael O’Brien are not seeking to “cash in”, they are coming from a place of genuine concern over the state of our culture (and the salvation of souls). O’Brien’s anti-Potter book is published by some obscure Polish publishing company (and it is only available from them). I don’t think he’s raking the money in hand over fist. I’m sure his novels from Ignatius Press net him much more revenue (as they should because they really are great books).

I disagree with O’Brien’s views of Harry Potter, but I don’t question his motives. I don’t think his position has earned him many new fans. Quite the opposite. I would bet that people like John Granger are making much more money writing in support of Harry Potter than vice versa.

I think the anti-Da Vinci Code market was a bit more lucrative.

As an aside, I also think it says something that Ignatius Press (who publishes pretty much all of O’Brien’s stuff) seems to have taken a pass on his anti-Potter book. In fact, all the Catholic publishers in the U.S. seem to have passed on producing anti-Potter books in general. Many of them (Ignatius Press, OSV, Bridegroom Press, etc.) have published books criticizing “The Da Vinci Code” but not one of them (that I am aware of) has published something similar denigrating Harry Potter.

Dear Joe,

Cordial greetings and hope all is well.

Hear, hear, well said. Mr. O’ Brien is definitely not making any serious money out of writing against the Potter novels. He writes only out of a deep conviction and because he is very concerned, as I and many others are also, about the deplorable paganization of children’s culture.

That the Catholic publishers have declined publishing any anti-Potter book might just back-up what I said about there being a conspiracy to silence those who feel compelled, for very genuine reasons, to critique the Potter series. In the interests of fairness and impartiality they surely ought to allow the opposing arguments to be heard, especially from a reputable author and thoroughly decent man like Michael O’ Brien.

What People should be asking is why the mainstream Catholic press are so fearful of publishing a book that intelligently and, in the opinion of many of us, cogently argues against this culturally unhealthy series of books. Perhaps they also have some anxiety that their reputation will be seriously undermined by publishing such a hard-hitting and provocative attack against a series of books that enjoys world-wide popularity, even among many Catholics. It really does look that way.

Jolly good too see you on the boards again Joe - deep in controversy yet again!

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[John_of_Woking]

Never thought I’d say this…but I actually agree with Jack on the ‘Dungeons and Dragons’ thing.

It always seem to be heavy metal IT geeks who are into it anyway

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Never thought I’d say this…but I actually agree with Jack on the ‘Dungeons and Dragons’ thing.

It always seem to be heavy metal IT geeks who are into it anyway

I can’t tell if you’re serious but just in case, let me tell you that the people I play it with all the time are all trading card game junkies with a fondness for Japanese comics/cartoons. They’re pretty much more into J-pop and stuff than metal.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Larf. Jack Chick does go overboard. I have no clue about D&D. Always struck me as a bit dark though? Anyway let’s not derail the thread…

Now…Back to Fr.Euteneur’s comments

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You know, that actually reminds me that I have the parody-plot bunny of that tract still locked up in my head. Instead of DnD though, I’m thinking of using Yu-Gi-Oh!. XD

I find it humorous though that Chick Publications hasn’t spoken on the matter of fantasy fiction for quite some time now. Is it just me or do I detect a scent of fear that they’ve been exposed as the idiots that they are?

 

[John_of_Woking]

Maybe I am just a bit impressionable . I am also wary of the occult.

I just like the pure and the good. I thirst for it. I am tired of nihilism - I used to drown in the stuff.

That’s not to say I can’t appreciate the genius in some secular art such as in music :Radiohead’s ‘How to Disappear Completelty’ or Andrew Bird’s ‘Nervous tic motion’. I just think sometimes it’s best to rest in the Sacred Heart of Jesus and avoid the diet of pain and existential angst that assails us.

 

[kenofken]

Maybe I am just a bit impressionable . I am also wary of the occult.

I just like the pure and the good. I thirst for it. I am tired of nihilism - I used to drown in the stuff.

That’s not to say I can’t appreciate the genius in some secular art such as in music :Radiohead’s ‘How to Disappear Completelty’ or Andrew Bird’s ‘Nervous tic motion’. I just think sometimes it’s best to rest in the Sacred Heart of Jesus and avoid the diet of pain and existential angst that assails us.

Most of us occultists are not nihilists. If nothing else, The Big Lebowski warned me off that path. I’m not going to risk having John Goodman bite MY ear off!

 

[cyberwolf001]

Dear cyberwolf001,

Cordial greetings.

I was not aware that books, CD’s etc. written or produced by Christian commentators opposed to the Potter phenomenom were prohibitively expensive. For example, Michael O’ Brien’s recent book, Harry Potter and the Paganization of Culture (Fides et Traditio Press, 2010) is only just over $20:00. That does not seem excessive as far as religious books of this size go.

Can you give some examples of exorbitant prices that you had in mind, by Christian publishers, Catholic or protestant?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

I’ll see if I can hunt down some prices for you. Most of this came from Protestants as you’ll note I never ment in particular but the Christian Anti-Potter movement as a whole. I’ve seen this with Pokemon and other works. One Magnum Opus of this was a series called the Coming Pagan Invasion or something like that but that was more of an Anti-Paganism than Anti-Harry thing.

Searching it looks like the prices have come down a lot the books when I saw them sold for $40 or more and that’s a 126 page paperback.

Well, I am in agreement with the “cynical” modifier, but less so with the “truthful” one.

People like Michael O’Brien are not seeking to “cash in”, they are coming from a place of genuine concern over the state of our culture (and the salvation of souls). O’Brien’s anti-Potter book is published by some obscure Polish publishing company (and it is only available from them). I don’t think he’s raking the money in hand over fist. I’m sure his novels from Ignatius Press net him much more revenue (as they should because they really are great books).

I disagree with O’Brien’s views of Harry Potter, but I don’t question his motives. I don’t think his position has earned him many new fans. Quite the opposite. I would bet that people like John Granger are making much more money writing in support of Harry Potter than vice versa.

I think the anti-Da Vinci Code market was a bit more lucrative.

As an aside, I also think it says something that Ignatius Press (who publishes pretty much all of O’Brien’s stuff) seems to have taken a pass on his anti-Potter book. In fact, all the Catholic publishers in the U.S. seem to have passed on producing anti-Potter books in general. Many of them (Ignatius Press, OSV, Bridegroom Press, etc.) have published books criticizing “The Da Vinci Code” but not one of them (that I am aware of) has published something similar denigrating Harry Potter.

I thought we where talking about Anti-Harry in general and not just from Catholics. Opps

At also misrepresented Gnosticism AND Paganism.

Having read the Da Vinci code (has anyone filed a class action lawsuit over the time wasted on that book yet?) I have to agree. Long, laborious and reaching for credibility that it never attains. The South Park episode about the origins of the Easter Bunny has makes much more sense.

I watched the latest HP movie, not nearly as good as previous installments. The main characters are isolated for long periods of the movie with boring dialog. They just can’t carry the movie without the detailed sets and interaction with other interesting/eccentric characters.

I always wondered why make this a two parter. It’s the one Harry Potter film that you CAN cut stuff out of the books with and save the plot.

---

Now IS there some attraction to Paganism via Harry Potter? Maybe I’ve yet to meet any Pagans that became such over the series. Although I came into Paganism after discovering it while doing some research on the mythological backgrounds of a Role Playing game I liked. I simple hadn’t realized that polytheism was an option or that people still worshiped these gods.

In this sense the issue facing Catholicism is a growing “free market” of religions. Especially as a generation of Pagan authors write books that ARE aimed at teaching Pagan values and how the Church will deal with this.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Well I gotta tell yah it is not as “deep” as The Lord of the Rings but I found it still pretty good. Anyway from what I’ve seen from the 1st book; there is alot about loyalty, friendship, trust, courage, kindness etc etc. Maybe the next few novels will show what all the fuss is about - I do plan to continue reading since I’m kind of hooked now. lol

Enjoy your journey with Harry and his friends, ericboutin! I’m glad you’ve decided to keep reading; they really do only get better and better as the series goes on.

Dearly beloved brethren,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for all of your replies to my latest post.

Welcome back, Portrait!

Thus, for example, these morally unwholesome books need to be examined in the context of the ongoing paganization of children’s cullture, a phenomenom that has already proved to have negative consequences.

I’ve read the selection that’s available online of O’Brien’s book on that process of ongoing paganization and Harry Potter.

I really do assure you, Portrait, that Rowling’s series actually does not meet O’Brien’s criteria for paganized children’s literature.

Her symbols, for instance, are very traditional. At different points in the series, the lion, the phoenix, the stag, etc. consistently represent and stand with good, and serpents and dragons consistently represent evil or at least opposition or obstacles for the good guys. Examples of the latter category: that a serpent represents the house of Salazar Slytherin, that “parseltongue” (speaking with snakes) is considered a sign of dark magic, also how Harry and his friends must slay a basilisk (in Chamber of Secrets) and Voldemort’s pet snake Nagini in Deathly Hallows.

I guarantee you, Portrait, the symbolism is very Christian and traditional. If young children go from reading Harry Potter to Genesis 3, they will immediately understand that the serpent in the Garden of Eden is up to something sinister.

I’m not even sure if O’Brien’s view on the portrayal of dragons makes a lot of sense. Another poster pointed out that even Tolkien portrays a tame dragon in Farmer Giles of Ham. But the irony is that whether it makes sense or not, Rowling’s series conforms fully to his demands on children’s literature in this regard.

Moreover, little serious attention has been given to the fact that the foundational element of the series is witchcraft and sorcery, unlike the fantasy works of C.S. Lewis or Tolkein.

Not really. There’s no sorcery - i.e. real-world invocational magic - in the series at all. Not even the bad guys ever use it. And even Harry Potter’s fictionalized magic isn’t the focus of the series, which is all about mortality, courage, friendship, perseverance, human relationships, etc. And all of these are portrayed in very morally positive ways.

However, I do not want to restate the arguments that I have already made in this thread, suffice to say that there has been a monumental failure to understand the power of cultural material over human consiousness, and thus its effects upon human actions. Many Catholics tacitly assume nowadays that it is possible to aborb a great deal of flawed and unsavoury material and remain totally impervious to its dangers. Alas, such persons forget that the young are in a state of formation and are thus vulnerable to the deformation of their understandings of reality, especially the nature of good and evil.

I agree completely.

That’s one of the main reasons I love the Harry Potter series so much: it thoroughly inculcates into its reader a Christian worldview on death, love, and self-sacrifice.

Alas, the Potter books prevent the young from developing a *properly ordered *sense of good and evil, which is hardly surprising given that they are relativistic products of our relativistic age. As Catholics we surely ought to avoid giving our precious children books which strongly reinforce moral relativism.

As someone who has read the whole series two or three times, I still wonder how you can possibly come to this conclusion. I’ve rarely encountered more morally absolutist stories in my life.

As regards the letters penned by Pope Benedict (when he was Cardinal Ratzinger) they have not been demonstrably proved to have been forgeries. Moreover, contrary to what some have said they cannot be dismissed as mere “thankyou notes” to Gabreile Kuby and neither is there any conclusive proof that some aide at the Vatican wrote the letters. All of this is nothing more than special pleading on the part of the pro-Potterites who just wish that Pope Benedict had never made these “embarrassingly reactionary” remarks when he was Cardinal Ratzinger.

Oh, don’t misunderstand us, Portrait. Of course the letter isn’t a “forgery.”

It’s just they’re not what the haters of this series desperately want them to be: LifeSiteNews’ fraudulent claim that “Pope Benedict Opposes Harry Potter Novels” is quite literally as big a distortion as the headlines that ran when Fr. Fleetwood praised the series.

As far as Monsignor Fleetwood is concerned, it would not be first time that his comments have been the occasion of disinformation. When he responded to a reporters question about the Potter series at a press conference, he replied, “If I have understood well the intentions of Harry Potter’s author, they help children to see the difference between good and evil”. Sadly, this sperficial personal opinion was the source of the erroneous world media headlines that the Vatican and Pope John Paul II had approved of the Potter series.

Or maybe he’s right. You really ought to consider that.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Furthermore, if those who have appraised the Potter books negatively are so off beam and so obviously misinformed, then why the widespread phenomenom of anger directed against them, especially since they are voicing a minority viewpoint?

I can tell you exactly why. Because these books foster in the soul a deeply Christian worldview and understanding of death which glorifies heroic self-sacrifice. The books also are literally structured around symbolic journeys from spiritual death to resurrection. They are wholesome and beautiful.

The anger against those who write against Harry Potter is the anger of those who share the same end as the Harry-haters - conversion of the world to Christ - but who see them persisting obstinately in something that actually works against the evangelizing of youth everywhere. That’s where the anger comes from.

Sadly much of this hostility has come from the ranks of orthodox Catholics who vehemently defend the series. Gabreile Kuby’s arguments, for example, have been misrepresented, her integrity publicly ridiculed and not infrequently she has suffered other kinds of ad hominem attacks against her person. Indeed, as I understand it, this is a fairly common experience among those who feel compelled to resist the Potter phenomenom.

While lack of charity is always lamentable, opponents of Harry Potter on religious or moral grounds cannot fairly expect anything more charitable than dismissal if they persist in erroneous opinions even after proven correction. The distortions of anti-Potter arguments have been exposed time and time again, and the reasons to celebrate this beautiful series have been clearly laid out and supported with verifiable evidence.

Portrait, you may find this hard to believe, but I really do find O’Brien’s arguments utterly unconvincing. I’ve read some of his treatment of the matter, and I’ve read John Granger. I have encountered other apologists for both sides as well.

It reminds me of my early experience with Catholic and Protestant apologetics. Just as the strongest Catholic apologists’ arguments went unanswered while their interlocutors persisted in the anti-Catholic misconceptions that were foundational to their arguments, so in my experience have the strongest pro-Potter apologists’ arguments gone utterly unanswered - the silence regarding them is truly deafening - while their interlocutors persist in falsehoods about the series that are foundational to their arguments.

Could it just be that the pro-Potterites are disconcerted by the arguments of their opponents and are deeply insecure in the untenable postion that they are seeking to uphold, come what may?. This would seem to be confirmed by the considerable amount of “hate mail” that critics of Potter like Gabreile Kuby and Michael O’Brien, and others, receive from people who just do not appreciate this cultural tsunami.

Honestly, I get the exact same impression from the anti-Potter side, Portrait. I know this gets us nowhere - since neither of us can prove or show evidence of anything from mere perceptions - but I’ve never seen a more relentless adherence to flawed data and analyses than the anti-Potter side.

As regards John Granger, Michael O’ Brien was invited to a debate by CNN who promised that both sides in the controversy surrounding the Potter books would be fairly presented. Unfortuantely, it was a biased, heavily manipulated broadcast from start to finish. Mr. O’ Brien was only able to make a few points in the 20 second sound bites before being cut off, whilst John Granger, representing the pro-Potterite camp, was given a lot more time and Mr. O’ Brien was given no time whatsoever to respond to Granger’s erroneous arguments.

If that’s true, I’m sorry to hear that.

But I suspect that what really happened is that Granger’s arguments were simply better. If it looked like O’Brien lost, that’s probably because there’s very little evidence that can possibly support his conclusion. Of course such a debate would seem unfair. In a sense, I’m sure it was a very imbalanced debate - O’Brien’s task was to defend an untenable position. John Granger had it easy.

I think that not because I love the Harry Potter series - though I do - but because I’ve read both their arguments, and Granger’s make a whole lot more sense. I cling not to his conclusions out of desperation, Portrait; rather, my intellect convicts me of their veracity. If you can’t accept that this is indeed the case for me… well, I don’t want to even speculate. That would be an uncharitable speculation.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Havard: The fears of the article you linked to are baseless. There’s nothing exciting about the potentially esoteric parts of Harry’s world. It’s just like ours. People have families. They have relationships. They go to school. Yes, Rowling’s witches and wizards keep their magic secret from the non-magical world, but the really exciting parts of the Harry Potter series are the parts that aren’t esoteric or hidden - they’re the parts that we too are genuinely called to live: heroic fidelity, courage, and self-sacrifice.

Furthermore, if children run around pretending to have Harry Potter-style wizard duels, so what? Waving sticks at each other and shouting stuff like “Petrificus Totalus!” is no different than children pretending to be Jedi and using those same sticks as lightsabers. It’s not occult at all.

I just like the pure and the good. I thirst for it. I am tired of nihilism - I used to drown in the stuff.

I sympathize. I hope by now you’ve been convinced that Harry Potter is quite the opposite of nihilism. Rowling’s world, in fact, exaggerates the efficacy of goodness by means of its fantasy structure; the premise of the series itself is a good example of this praiseworthy feature of the novels: the villain - an evil and extremely powerful wizard - tries to murder a baby (Harry himself), and his mother - helpless in comparison to the villain - attempts to save her son. The villain kills her easily, but the fact that she sacrificed herself for her son causes this seemingly all-powerful villain’s killing curse to rebound off her helpless infant and nearly destroy the villain himself.

And to top it all off, as long as Harry lives with his mother’s relatives, her sacrifice literally protects him from this villain’s power as long as he is underage.

That seems to me about as anti-nihilist as you can get. That’s one thing I love about Harry Potter: positive spiritual values like love actually strongly affect the magic in her world, and they usually constitute or cause magical properties or effects that are way stronger than the regular “spells” themselves.

It’s for reasons like this that Harry Potter’s magic really is like Narnia’s good magic.

 

[Joe_5859]

Dear Joe,

Cordial greetings and hope all is well.

Hear, hear, well said. Mr. O’ Brien is definitely not making any serious money out of writing against the Potter novels. He writes only out of a deep conviction and because he is very concerned, as I and many others are also, about the deplorable paganization of children’s culture.

That the Catholic publishers have declined publishing any anti-Potter book might just back-up what I said about there being a conspiracy to silence those who feel compelled, for very genuine reasons, to critique the Potter series. In the interests of fairness and impartiality they surely ought to allow the opposing arguments to be heard, especially from a reputable author and thoroughly decent man like Michael O’ Brien.

What People should be asking is why the mainstream Catholic press are so fearful of publishing a book that intelligently and, in the opinion of many of us, cogently argues against this culturally unhealthy series of books. Perhaps they also have some anxiety that their reputation will be seriously undermined by publishing such a hard-hitting and provocative attack against a series of books that enjoys world-wide popularity, even among many Catholics. It really does look that way.

Jolly good too see you on the boards again Joe - deep in controversy yet again!

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

Yes, it is good to see you again, Portrait. I hope all is well with you and your family this Advent season.

I admit, I am somewhat curious about O’Brien’s book. I may have to pick it up at some point. I love his novels and I also enjoyed “A Landscape With Dragons”, so I am interested to hear his take on Harry Potter in its fully developed form (rather that the snippets found in articles on the web).

I’m not sure I’d classify the dearth of anti-Potter books from Catholic publishers as a “conspiracy” per se, but I think you do offer some interesting points to consider. I am all for open discourse on the matter, but I can see why a Catholic publisher wouldn’t want to stick their neck out on this one. Part of it could be fear of backlash. Part of it could be practical considerations about marketability (they wouldn’t want to lose money on it). But then, part of it may also be that they simply don’t agree with the anti-Potter viewpoint and they don’t want to publish something that would not accurately represent them. I wouldn’t be surprised if it were a bit of a mix of all of the above. We seldom do things for only one reason.

At least Mr. O’Brien was able to publish his book somewhere. I was wondering if he would ever publish a book about it. I only recently discovered that he did.

Have a blessed Advent and a merry Christmas!

 

[Portrait]

F.A.O. Fone Bone 2001

Dear Fone Bone,

Cordial greetings and thankyou dear friend for your courteous responses to my recent post.

First, whilst it is freely admitted that good wholesome fiction need not necessarily be overtly Christian, or even religious for that matter, the fact is that the central metaphor and plot engines of the Potter series are witchcraft and sorcery, activities forbidden by God in Sacred Scripture. The Potter books disturbingly and repeatedly portray in a positive light the very activities, albeit in a fictional context, that are denounced in the strongest possible terms in both the Old and New Testaments. Thus, for example, in Deutronomy 18: 9-12 enchanting, divination, charms, consulting with familiar spirits or a necromancer are described as an “abomination” in the sight of God and must therefore be driven out. Now regardless how many children are enticed to enter the occultic sub-culture after reading the Potter novels, it will have a strong impact upon most, in the sense of what educators term propaeduetic-preparing the ground for later worrying developments. In the world of Potter the characters are engaged in activities which in real life undeniably corrupt us, weaken the will, darken the mind, and pull the practioner down into a spiritual bondage which can ultimately end in eternal damnation. This is frequently ignored or downplayed by the pro-Potterites. Rowling’s characters plunge increasingly deeper into that world without displaying any negative side effects, only an enlargement of “character”. This is a lie and as a Catholic I find it most unsettling, as do many others. Since there is so much that dazzles and delights in the Potter books, the reader must needs exercise a certain effort to detect these interior contradictions and mixed messages. Contrary, to some very specious argumentation, these books do have the potential of lowering a child’s guard, both subconcious and spiritual, to actual occult activity, which is now ubiquitous and growing at an alarming rate. Rationally speaking, children may know the that the fantasy element in the series is not “real”, but emotionally the young reader assimilates it as real. Moreover this is further complicated by the fact that in the real world in which our lot is cast there are many opportunities for the young to enter evil occultic subcultures, where some of Potter’s powers are offered as real. These books bridge the gap between normal healthy children and the world of darkness and that surely ought to be cause for grave concern among devout Catholics.

Second, when Potter devotees defend the books by stating that the stories disconnect witchcraft from actual spiritual realities, and hence any talk of a child wanting to go from fantasy witchcraft to its real life counterpart is wildly unreasonable, they are leaping to a big conclusion devoid of empirical evidence. Marcia Montenegro, a former occult practioner, has undertaken painstaking and well-documented research on this aspect of the series. She has outlined in great detail the close relationship between the “fantasy” magic of Potter world and the evil world of real witchcraft and sorcery.

Third, there is a feeble attempt in the Potter series to portray courage and loyalty in the good characters, but courage and loyalty can be found in all people’s, even those involved in the worst forms of paganism. Genuine wholesome fantasy, such as that found in Lewis or Tolkein, at least reinforces the moral order of the universe in the child’s mind; corrupt and morally ambiguous fantasy undermines it. Potter is decidedly corrupt fantasy, with a little cosmetics. The cosmetics are the “values” woven into the tale by Rowling.

Fourth, to state that any negative appraisal of the Potter series is a hindrance to the evanglisation of the young, is quite frankly preposterous. Surely Fone Bone you are not suggesting that Catholics refrain from informing youth about that which could be potentially injurious to their immortal soul, because that might just offend them! In any event, I think that we Catholics we will be more respected if we proclaim what we believe to be the truth without fear or favour, at least in the long term; men may end up thanking us one day for offending them with the truth. Moreover, it is plainly misguided to assert that those who critique and denounce the Potter books, rock music, or any other aspect of modern culture, thereby diminish the credibility of the Church in the estimation of the young or others.

Fifth, In that CNN interview Mr. O’ Brien was not even given the opportunity to present his arguments, thus no one can really say whether he was “defending an untenable position” or not. Mr. Granger only had it “easy” because his opponent was not afforded the chance put his arguments without interruption, so, alas, the debate was imbalanced for this reason. Obviously Granger’s postion would look good if the opposition had been effectively closed down.

Finally, to say that Monsignor Fleetwood may be right about Potter, and that I ought to consider that possibility, is of no real help since I could say that Father Amorth may be just right about Potter (I firmly believe he is btw) and that you should ponder that, but that would only be me expressing my personal conviction. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am sure I have read somewhere that Fleetwood has himself said that he and Father Amorth are only giving their personal opinion on the matter of Potter and are not speaking for the Vatican Office.

Thankyou again for taking the time to write such a detailed response. God bless you.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Portrait]

Yes, it is good to see you again, Portrait. I hope all is well with you and your family this Advent season.

I admit, I am somewhat curious about O’Brien’s book. I may have to pick it up at some point. I love his novels and I also enjoyed “A Landscape With Dragons”, so I am interested to hear his take on Harry Potter in its fully developed form (rather that the snippets found in articles on the web).

I’m not sure I’d classify the dearth of anti-Potter books from Catholic publishers as a “conspiracy” per se, but I think you do offer some interesting points to consider. I am all for open discourse on the matter, but I can see why a Catholic publisher wouldn’t want to stick their neck out on this one. Part of it could be fear of backlash. Part of it could be practical considerations about marketability (they wouldn’t want to lose money on it). But then, part of it may also be that they simply don’t agree with the anti-Potter viewpoint and they don’t want to publish something that would not accurately represent them. I wouldn’t be surprised if it were a bit of a mix of all of the above. We seldom do things for only one reason.

At least Mr. O’Brien was able to publish his book somewhere. I was wondering if he would ever publish a book about it. I only recently discovered that he did.

Have a blessed Advent and a merry Christmas!

Dear Joe,

Cordial greetings and compliments of the Advent season to you and your wife. It was roughly about this time last year that my wife and I were received into the Catholic Church. It has been a great year for us, the highlight of which was a pilgrimage to Cofton Park, here in the U.K., to see our Holy Father for the Beatification of John Henry Newman.

Yes, I am delighted that Mr. O’ Brien has found a publisher for his book. His arguments deserve to be heard and I for one think his case against the Potter series is both unanswered and unanswerable.

Goodbye for now and may you and your family have a blessed Christmas.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait:tiphat:

Pax

 

[ericboutin]

Wow for the sake of space I won’t quote Portrait’s response in #518 and obviously this thread is going hyper - intellectual. I’m thinking that is really part of the whole problem here as well. If I let my 10 year old daughter read that response as part of the explanation of why I’m reading HP along with her I’m pretty confident she wouldn’t understand a word of it. From what she’s told me HP for her is about a kid running around with his friends playing weird sounding games and getting into crazy adventures with weird sounding creatures. And believe it or not I really think that’s all it is for her. I know it’s not as exciting as the well meaning dissertation above but that might be why for over 10 years no one has taken this anti-Potter thing seriously - I’m glad I looked into it though as I think it’s every parent’s responsibility but I personally don’t think there is anything here…God Bless all!

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Dear Fone Bone,

Cordial greetings and thank you dear friend for your courteous responses to my recent post.

Likewise. I’m glad you’ve come back to participate in the thread some more, Portrait.

First, whilst it is freely admitted that good wholesome fiction need not necessarily be overtly Christian, or even religious for that matter, the fact is that the central metaphor and plot engines of the Potter series are witchcraft and sorcery, activities forbidden by God in Sacred Scripture. The Potter books disturbingly and repeatedly portray in a positive light the very activities, albeit in a fictional context, that are denounced in the strongest possible terms in both the Old and New Testaments. Thus, for example, in Deutronomy 18: 9-12 enchanting, divination, charms, consulting with familiar spirits or a necromancer are described as an “abomination” in the sight of God and must therefore be driven out.

But why doesn’t it matter that no “magic” in the series resembles real-world occult practices?

For instance, it is perfectly true that in the books Hogwarts offers a class on “Charms.” But the kind of “charms” they learn are blatantly and obviously fantastical and therefore fictional, with no occult undertones. For instance, in “Charms” class Harry learns “the Summoning Charm,” in which a “witch” or “wizard” raises his wand and speaks the phrase “Accio + [object],” which causes that object to magically fly into the witch or wizard’s hand.

Harry uses this charm, for instance, when he’s facing a dangerous dragon in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. He needs his broomstick - a “Firebolt” model - to be able to get by the dragon, so he yells, “Accio Firebolt,” causing his broom to fly out of the castle and into his very hands. Then he flies around on it.

So, yes, there is a “Charms” class at Hogwarts. But this example best illustrates how ridiculous it would be to fear such a portrayal as even a potential gateway into the occult. There’s a reason real-world occultists and pagans - like kenofken here on this thread - scoff at the notion that Harry Potter magic resembles what they do. The occult is real, but this “summoning charm” is obviously fantastical, and in fact it requires a wand to do it, and an integral part of wands in this series is a magical core - a unicorn hair, or a dragon heartstring, etc.

And there are no such things in real life as dragons and unicorns. (a) Children understand this, (b) even if they don’t, this “magic” doesn’t resemble real-world occult practices at all anyway, and (c) if a child does choose - for fun - to run around pretending to have Harry Potter-style wizard duels and pretend to “cast” this “Summoning Charm,” it’s quite literally no more harmful than if he or she pretends to be a Jedi in a lightsaber fight.

The “Divination” class is literally the only one that even superficially approximates potentially occult practices. But Rowling portrays it as a fruitless endeavor, and something that even human witches and wizards should not bother pursuing. In Rowling’s novel, it is the centaur Firenze - not a human being at all - who excels at it.

In fact, Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia actually go at least as far as Rowling’s series does in positive portrayal of potentially occult practices. In Prince Caspian, the centaur Glenstorm - a good guy who receives nothing but praise from the narrator for his courage and fidelity - explains that he used astrology to predict regime change in Narnia. Why don’t you have a problem with that?

I can tell you why I don’t have a problem with it: because the portrayal of astrology loses its danger for two reasons: (1) the fact that, like all Narnia’s magical elements, it is thoroughly Christianized by the context and the work’s fantasy substructure; and (2) because it’s not a human being doing it at all, but a centaur.

Likewise, in Harry Potter, even the witches and wizards are a completely separate kind of human being. In Rowling’s world, you are either born with innate magical ability or not. Normal humans like you and I can’t do magic in Rowling’s series. It would be fruitless to try.

That’s why the comparison to Tolkien’s elves is an apt one. Tolkien’s elves can do things that men consider magic, but it’s not invocational or occult; it’s because they’re elves. Likewise with Harry Potter’s witches and wizards: they have innate abilities due to their very nature, not to any alliance with spiritual powers.