Was 3rd maccabees in septuagint?

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I’m trying to figure out which books were in the Septuagint and why books like 3rd Maccabees is in the Greek Orthodox Bibles but not in Roman Catholic Bibles. My understanding is that the Septuagint contained the 46 OT books in the RC OT but I’m reading other things that say books like 3rd Maccabees and others were as well but considered to be Apocyphal and didn’t make it into the RC canon. Clarity is what I’m seeking here.
 
Different copies had slightly variant collections of books, and there was no established Jewish canon until after the time of Jesus.
 
NHInsider said:
Different copies had slightly variant collections of books, and there was no established Jewish canon until after the time of Jesus.
Click to expand...
NH,

Assuming you are correct, how did the Jews know what was and wasn’t scripture in your opinion? Clearly Jesus held them accountable for knowing the scriptures so they had to have had a least some idea what was and what wasn’t scripture.
 
There was no question about the Torah/Pentateuch. Some of the Jews (including those our NT calls the Sadducees) accepted a short canon (not including “the Writings”), others (including the Pharisees) a longer one. The number of “disputed” books, even in the first and second century, was ultimately quite small.
 
SemperReformada said:
NH,

Assuming you are correct, how did the Jews know what was and wasn’t scripture in your opinion? Clearly Jesus held them accountable for knowing the scriptures so they had to have had a least some idea what was and what wasn’t scripture.
Click to expand...
Hel them accountable? Not all Jews adhered to the same books, precisley why there was no fixed canon prior and during Jesus days. Many Protestants affirm the Jews already adhered to 39 books due to Josephus reference. However,Josephus does not state a fixed canon was in place or determined. If it was fixed prior to Jesus,then where was it fixed? By whom? And where?
 
Nicea325 said:
Hel them accountable? Not all Jews adhered to the same books, precisley why there was no fixed canon prior and during Jesus days. Many Protestants affirm the Jews already adhered to 39 books due to Josephus reference. However,Josephus does not state a fixed canon was in place or determined. If it was fixed prior to Jesus,then where was it fixed? By whom? And where?
Click to expand...
Just a quick search from biblegateway.com.

2.Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ?
Matthew 21:41-43 (in Context) Matthew 21 (Whole Chapter)
3.Matthew 22:29
Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
Matthew 22:28-30 (in Context) Matthew 22 (Whole Chapter)
4.Matthew 26:54
But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”
Matthew 26:53-55 (in Context) Matthew 26 (Whole Chapter)
5.Mark 12:10
Haven’t you read this passage of Scripture: “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
Mark 12:9-11 (in Context) Mark 12 (Whole Chapter)
6.Mark 12:24
Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?
Mark 12:23-25 (in Context) Mark 12 (Whole Chapter)
7.Mark 14:49
Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”
Mark 14:48-50 (in Context) Mark 14 (Whole Chapter)
8.Luke 4:21
He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
Luke 4:20-22 (in Context) Luke 4 (Whole Chapter)
9.Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
Luke 24:26-28 (in Context) Luke 24 (Whole Chapter)
10.Luke 24:32
They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
Luke 24:31-33 (in Context) Luke 24 (Whole Chapter)

The Jews were expected to know the scriptures. How did they do this? Let’s suppose the Jews had not “officially” closed the canon.

How could the Jews have had any clue what was and what wasn’t scripture?
 
NHInsider said:
There was no question about the Torah/Pentateuch. Some of the Jews (including those our NT calls the Sadducees) accepted a short canon (not including “the Writings”), others (including the Pharisees) a longer one. The number of “disputed” books, even in the first and second century, was ultimately quite small.
Click to expand...
Okay, but how did they know the Torah/Pentateuch was scripture?
 
Raider_Red said:
I’m trying to figure out which books were in the Septuagint and why books like 3rd Maccabees is in the Greek Orthodox Bibles but not in Roman Catholic Bibles. My understanding is that the Septuagint contained the 46 OT books in the RC OT but I’m reading other things that say books like 3rd Maccabees and others were as well but considered to be Apocyphal and didn’t make it into the RC canon. Clarity is what I’m seeking here.
Click to expand...
A list useful for comparing the various canons of the various churches appears here—and appears to be quite accurate: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon. Because the Byzantine and other churches of the east were not included in some of the early gatherings attempting to define the biblical canon in the West, their own biblical canons developed in different directions than did the Western canon.

Also, there really was no “The Septuagint” until the invention of the codex around the fourth century. (Once you have intended to publish a book, some needs to decide what goes in it. Prior to that, translations of individual books or parts of books would have been copied on parchment scrolls or papyrus, and no one document would have included all of the definitively canonical biblical texts.)

As for the current Greek Orthodox Bible, you can check out the list of books in the table of contents using the preview feature at Amazon.com:

amazon.com/Orthodox-Study-Bible-Ancient-Christianity/dp/0718003594/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1300487204&sr=1-1#reader_0718003594
 
Not in my experience. Most of the Protestants I know/knew either never thought about how they knew the Bible was the Bible, or clung to the idea that the books of their Bibles somehow testified to their own canonicity. They believe what they’ve been told, that the Catholic Church added books to the Bible in order to support teachings that they (Protestants) reject. There are some liberal Protestants who do not hold to a closed canon, but most Evangelicals and Reformed do, vehemently. But they believe that the Table of Contents is built in, not figured out by human beings (since they deny that Jesus gave any human beings either the authority or the inspiration that would have required.)
 
SemperReformada said:
Okay, but how did they know the Torah/Pentateuch was scripture?
Click to expand...
Most of the Penteteuch is “LAW”, as in the governing documents of the society. They are spoken of as “the books of Moses”. People understood their status as scripture from that fact, that they express the duties of a Jew as negotiated by Moses and the Fathers (Patriarchs). It would be odd that anyone would regard an actively proclaimed law as non-scripture. That isn’t true about the prophets and wisdom writings.

When Jesus holds people accountable for the scriptures, he holds them accountable for the scriptures they believe in. This is why Jesus quotes Moses to the Sadducees on the nature of the resurrection, but does not use the prophetic work about the valley of dry bones. The Saducees would reject arguments from books they didn’t believe in just as protestants will reject arguments from books not in their canon. A book’s canon, or more colloquially which list it is on, is related to how the book was used. (And I include scrolls as “Books”, BIBLOS, though not in the modern bound sense). Scrolls are “books” – just not paginated ones.

It is quite true that the situation then and now are the same in one sense – that there is a rejection of various books according to sects. But, Jesus does make a distinction – he says that the Pharisees (not Sadducees) have come into “the chair of Moses” therefore do what they say, but not what they do. (Hypocrites). The Pharisees maintained strict adherence to the Law, but the Sadducees were liberal, pro-foreign governmental style adherent’s. There is good and bad in both positions, and ultimately Jesus reprimanded them both for serious faults, but after Jesus spoke neither side’s apologetics and traps could withstand his analysis of whatever set or subset of scriptures were believed in.

The Samaritan woman, at the well, can be presumed to have rejected certain books – except one, Moses, who foretold of the coming of Jesus “A prophet like me, to whom you will listen”. This is why her words are so startling… “I can see you are a prophet.” and Jesus words to her were equally telling, “But salvation is from the Jews” ( Not ISRAEL, but JUDAH. )

A testimony of varying levels of scriptural anarchy is manifest throughout the scriptures themselves, but as Jesus came to heal the sick – note it didn’t stop Jesus from declaring who was the curator – The “Pharisees.”, the same sect as St. Paul. Just so, to whomever the chair of Moses is given takes over that responsibility. It was to be taken away from the Pharisees and GIVEN to another, and the one to whom it is given then has the responsibility to maintain the books.

It is not one and the same to say Jesus was given the chair, for Jesus was also present (in figure) at the time of Moses according to St. Paul, (Abraham longed to see my day, and he saw it) but still there was a governing authority called the “Chair of Moses” which was not the “ark of the Covenant” itself. The Ark being the only recorded chair designed only for God to sit on, prefiguring Jesus’ incarnation.
The ark was not for Moses to sit on, much less the Pharisees !
 
NHInsider said:
Not in my experience. Most of the Protestants I know/knew either never thought about how they knew the Bible was the Bible, or clung to the idea that the books of their Bibles somehow testified to their own canonicity. They believe what they’ve been told, that the Catholic Church added books to the Bible in order to support teachings that they (Protestants) reject. There are some liberal Protestants who do not hold to a closed canon, but most Evangelicals and Reformed do, vehemently. But they believe that the Table of Contents is built in, not figured out by human beings (since they deny that Jesus gave any human beings either the authority or the inspiration that would have required.)
Click to expand...
I agree that many, probably the vast majority of non-Catholics, do not give much thought to the canon.
 
SemperReformada said:
Just a quick search from biblegateway.com.

2.Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ?
Matthew 21:41-43 (in Context) Matthew 21 (Whole Chapter)
3.Matthew 22:29
Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
Matthew 22:28-30 (in Context) Matthew 22 (Whole Chapter)
4.Matthew 26:54
But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”
Matthew 26:53-55 (in Context) Matthew 26 (Whole Chapter)
5.Mark 12:10
Haven’t you read this passage of Scripture: “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
Mark 12:9-11 (in Context) Mark 12 (Whole Chapter)
6.Mark 12:24
Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?
Mark 12:23-25 (in Context) Mark 12 (Whole Chapter)
7.Mark 14:49
Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”
Mark 14:48-50 (in Context) Mark 14 (Whole Chapter)
8.Luke 4:21
He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
Luke 4:20-22 (in Context) Luke 4 (Whole Chapter)
9.Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
Luke 24:26-28 (in Context) Luke 24 (Whole Chapter)
10.Luke 24:32
They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
Luke 24:31-33 (in Context) Luke 24 (Whole Chapter)

The Jews were expected to know the scriptures. How did they do this? Let’s suppose the Jews had not “officially” closed the canon.

How could the Jews have had any clue what was and what wasn’t scripture?
Click to expand...
Which Jews are you referring to? The Pharisees? Sadducees? Essense? Each held to different books. If I am correct does not James mention a book not in our Bibles?
 
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