Was Adam culpable in Gen. 4

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The more I think of it… perhaps no.

It was Eve, after all who tempted and prodded him. Eve being the only woman alive at that point, he probably found her quite pretty and charming and tough to refuse :).

On the other hand… God did tell them both not to eat of tree of good and evil… so… idk:shrug:.

Then again… why place the tree of good and evil around two especially inquisitve people ( especially that silly, foolish eve?) Did not God create an “attractive nuisance?”

This is a somewhat related question, but what exactly does the Church teach about Adam and Eve? Do they teach they, and the garden of Eden were literal places.

I just wonder because it appears that indeed they were not, and natural history evolution sort of disproves that two fully developed people just one day appeared on the earth:blush:
 
The sin was disobedience. Did Adam know that if he disobeyed God, he would die? I think so. Was it fair? I can’t put my finite mind into God’s place so I cannot walk in his shoes.
 
Anthony2112 said:
The sin was disobedience. Did Adam know that if he disobeyed God, he would die? I think so. Was it fair? I can’t put my finite mind into God’s place so I cannot walk in his shoes.
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If God killing all the Egyptian first born sons and generally reigning terror on Egypt due to Pharoh’s obstinancy is fair, than so is his punishment to Adam and Eve.
 
HabemusFrancis said:
If God killing all the Egyptian first born sons and generally reigning terror on Egypt due to Pharoh’s obstinancy is fair, than so is his punishment to Adam and Eve.
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I don’t think we can apply “fairness” to God. We don’t know enough. There also may be more going on behind the scene in scripture that we don’t know about. The scriptures do not tell us everything.
 
HabemusFrancis said:
If God killing all the Egyptian first born sons and generally reigning terror on Egypt due to Pharoh’s obstinancy is fair, than so is his punishment to Adam and Eve.
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Didn’t God make Pharoah obstinent? Or did I misread that section?

And what makes this true?:
"Ver. 3. I shall harden, &c.; not by being the efficient cause of his hardness of heart, but by permitting it; and by withdrawing grace from him, in punishment of his malice; which alone was the proper cause of his being hardened. Ch. "(Haydock Bible Commentary, courtesy of Verbum)
 
Upgrade25 said:
Didn’t God make Pharoah obstinent?
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Um, no, He didn’t. What God did was allow Pharoah his free will, unhindered. The texts of Exodus need to be read not as psychological or even ‘literal’ concepts, but represent the Jewish thinking of the writer at the time he wrote.

Here’s an example. Most of us, when we’re hell-bent, so to speak, on doing evil, will have at least one point, maybe several, where it seems as if God is trying to ‘nudge us away’ from the evil. Maybe we’re about to commit sexual sin, and ‘all of a sudden’ we get this kind of ‘vision’ of how wrong it is, and we draw back. Maybe we’re thinking of stealing, and we see somebody get hauled off for shoplifting, see the tears on the faces of the parents, see the headlines in the local paper. . .and suddenly we don’t feel like stealing anymore.

We still have the free will to steal, but ‘something’ that we could STILL have ‘blown off’ makes us realize and helps us reconsider.

Well, with Pharoah, God just let him have that free will to do evil (and yes, keeping a whole group of people enslaved is evil, especially if you’re being told this is against the will of God or even ‘a god’ if you’re pantheistic), and Pharoah was warned of the consequences not just to him PERSONALLY but to the people he ruled (and should have been concerned about). God just ‘let’ Pharoah continue on trying to get what Pharoah wanted, because Pharoah had made it clear that he wasn’t going to listen, wasn’t open to good. Most of us considering an evil act ARE open to good and that’s why we can be ‘turned’ from it. But some few people are not. Remember, too, that this ‘turning away’ of God’s wasn’t for Pharoah’s whole life or anything, and that it is still entirely open to possibility that Pharoah, before his death, repented of his actions.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Um, no, He didn’t. What God did was allow Pharoah his free will, unhindered. The texts of Exodus need to be read not as psychological or even ‘literal’ concepts, but represent the Jewish thinking of the writer at the time he wrote.

Here’s an example. Most of us, when we’re hell-bent, so to speak, on doing evil, will have at least one point, maybe several, where it seems as if God is trying to ‘nudge us away’ from the evil. Maybe we’re about to commit sexual sin, and ‘all of a sudden’ we get this kind of ‘vision’ of how wrong it is, and we draw back. Maybe we’re thinking of stealing, and we see somebody get hauled off for shoplifting, see the tears on the faces of the parents, see the headlines in the local paper. . .and suddenly we don’t feel like stealing anymore.

We still have the free will to steal, but ‘something’ that we could STILL have ‘blown off’ makes us realize and helps us reconsider.

Well, with Pharoah, God just let him have that free will to do evil (and yes, keeping a whole group of people enslaved is evil, especially if you’re being told this is against the will of God or even ‘a god’ if you’re pantheistic), and Pharoah was warned of the consequences not just to him PERSONALLY but to the people he ruled (and should have been concerned about). God just ‘let’ Pharoah continue on trying to get what Pharoah wanted, because Pharoah had made it clear that he wasn’t going to listen, wasn’t open to good. Most of us considering an evil act ARE open to good and that’s why we can be ‘turned’ from it. But some few people are not. Remember, too, that this ‘turning away’ of God’s wasn’t for Pharoah’s whole life or anything, and that it is still entirely open to possibility that Pharoah, before his death, repented of his actions.
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So God gave Pharoah a chance, and he rejected it?
 
HabemusFrancis said:
If God killing all the Egyptian first born sons and generally reigning terror on Egypt due to Pharoh’s obstinancy is fair, than so is his punishment to Adam and Eve.
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If God is God, and God is good, then His actions are good. And “good” means more than 'good by human standards by society X in year Y".

Even in human standards, let’s suppose I have a sudden heart attack. In order to treat that attack and result in the hopeful saving of my life, doctors are going to have to cut me open. Now, that’s not something ‘good’, right? Normally, we don’t cut people open. And even if I survive, I’m going to have to deal with the consequences of the surgery --pain, stitches, complications of anesthesia, possible blood clots, possible wound dehiscence, etc.etc.

Now take God. God knows ‘the whole picture’ as we do not. Perhaps even the small child killed by gunfire (a terribly evil action) can, ultimately have lost his life and have good result. Perhaps his parents, who might have grown slack and soft in faith, will because of this tragedy turn to God and have their faith burn brightly and be a beacon of hope to others. Perhaps even one person reading about this tragedy will turn his or her life around --perhaps the woman contemplating abortion will have her baby, thinking about the pain of the parents and realizing that she is about to suffer the same pain, self-induced. Perhaps the people who shot the child will turn THEIR lives around. We don’t know. And even if no person DID have ‘good result’ from this, the child’s life is still worthwhile. The child lived a life which mattered.

We know that many of the Egyptians who died were young and innocent. In such a case, they, unlike their elders who were defying God, were on the ‘fast track’ to heaven, were they not? It’s not like God was depriving them --or any of us, for that matter–of a life we **were entitled to. We don’t give ourselves life–God does. That is why He is the ONLY ONE who can ‘take it’ from us without being ‘guilty’ of wrong.

**I know we aren’t just ‘things’, but if you saw a man or woman who was making pottery dishes and they made what looked like a perfect cup, but they took it up and smushed it back into the clay, would you think, “They have no RIGHT to do that to the cup they made?” I don’t think so. As the creators, they have the right to do as they see fit with their creations. Maybe they saw a hairline crack that you missed. Maybe they know more about what is ‘right’ than you do. And those are just human people. How much better does GOD know goodness and right than we fallible human beings?
 
Tantum_ergo said:
If God is God, and God is good, then His actions are good. And “good” means more than 'good by human standards by society X in year Y".

Even in human standards, let’s suppose I have a sudden heart attack. In order to treat that attack and result in the hopeful saving of my life, doctors are going to have to cut me open. Now, that’s not something ‘good’, right? Normally, we don’t cut people open. And even if I survive, I’m going to have to deal with the consequences of the surgery --pain, stitches, complications of anesthesia, possible blood clots, possible wound dehiscence, etc.etc.

Now take God. God knows ‘the whole picture’ as we do not. Perhaps even the small child killed by gunfire (a terribly evil action) can, ultimately have lost his life and have good result. Perhaps his parents, who might have grown slack and soft in faith, will because of this tragedy turn to God and have their faith burn brightly and be a beacon of hope to others. Perhaps even one person reading about this tragedy will turn his or her life around --perhaps the woman contemplating abortion will have her baby, thinking about the pain of the parents and realizing that she is about to suffer the same pain, self-induced. Perhaps the people who shot the child will turn THEIR lives around. We don’t know. And even if no person DID have ‘good result’ from this, the child’s life is still worthwhile. The child lived a life which mattered.

We know that many of the Egyptians who died were young and innocent. In such a case, they, unlike their elders who were defying God, were on the ‘fast track’ to heaven, were they not? It’s not like God was depriving them --or any of us, for that matter–of a life we **were entitled to. We don’t give ourselves life–God does. That is why He is the ONLY ONE who can ‘take it’ from us without being ‘guilty’ of wrong.

**I know we aren’t just ‘things’, but if you saw a man or woman who was making pottery dishes and they made what looked like a perfect cup, but they took it up and smushed it back into the clay, would you think, “They have no RIGHT to do that to the cup they made?” I don’t think so. As the creators, they have the right to do as they see fit with their creations. Maybe they saw a hairline crack that you missed. Maybe they know more about what is ‘right’ than you do. And those are just human people. How much better does GOD know goodness and right than we fallible human beings?
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Thanks, tantum ergo!
praecentor.bandcamp.com/album/missa-de-venerabili-sacramento
 
Anthony2112 said:
The sin was disobedience. Did Adam know that if he disobeyed God, he would die? I think so. Was it fair? I can’t put my finite mind into God’s place so I cannot walk in his shoes.
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The sin was lack of trust.
 
Upgrade25 said:
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=RSVCE

Was Adam culpable for his sin? Did he have all the knowledge needed to reject the sin? Was God unfair to him?
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In my Bible, Adam is culpable for shattering humanity’s relationship with Divinity. This takes place in Genesis, chapter 3. Assuming that chapter 4 is a typo, may I gently suggest that by looking carefully at all the verses in Chapters 1, 2, and 3, one can find answers to all your questions.

Which verse or verses in chapters 1, 2, and 3, would you like start the study of Adam? In my opinion, verses 26 and 27, Chapter 1 are both the easiest and the hardest ones to study. I don’t care if you close your eyes and let your finger do the pointing. We simply need a starting point for the start of our journey looking for Adam.
 
Upgrade25 said:
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=RSVCE

Was Adam culpable for his sin? Did he have all the knowledge needed to reject the sin? Was God unfair to him?
Click to expand...
FIRST of all, it is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD to be “unfair”🙂

And as for Adam;

He too was CREATED in the very “image and likeness of God”

Gen. 1: 26-27
“And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them”

Jn 4:23-24 TELLS US

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.

So God “Is SPIRIT”; and yet the bible tells us that WE “emulate God.” How So?

[No I’m not changing the topic here; I’m answering the question:)

The Universe consist of BILLIONS of Created things; **but only one; only Planet earth can be proved to sustain the life forms we know of.

On Planet earth with its many MILLIONS of “living things”; again only one; Only humanity has the essentials to be able to love or to hate. Only humanity can make more complex things out of less complex things. Only humanity can rationalize.

In order for humanity to be able to do these things requires in an absolute sense:

A MIND [not meaning here our brain]

A INTELLECT [not meaning our “I.Q.”]

& a Freewill

This package of unique and powerful attributes ARE how humanity emulates our God.

Each of these gifts; LIKE GOD are Spiritual-Realities; and immortal. Can’t be killed and never die.

If you doubt this; then quantify for us your FREEWILL:D

What is its size, shape, color and weight? Can’t be done, yet it exist, and only a fi=ool would attempt to dispute this fact.

The POINT here is tha Adam too had this unique Spiritual-package. He was FULLY able to know right from wrong; and GOD made clear to HIM what he ,Adam could & Could NOT do:

Gen. 2: 16-17
"And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat: But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death"

Gen 3: 1-6
Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise? And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die. And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.

And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat

So they had:

[1] Knowledge that it was "literally] a MORTAL SIN

[2] Understood the seriousness of what they were freely choosing to do

[3] And the FREELY choose to do “IT” anyway

Gen. 3: 7-10
And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons. And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise. And the Lord God called Adam, and said to him: Where art thou? And he said: I heard thy voice in paradise; and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself."

So they freely choose to listen to the
“father of lies”…Satan, but COULD have told Satan to God BACK to hell":rolleyes:

Of course they were culpable…😦

God Bless you,

Patrick
 
In order to understand what really happened, (Genesis 3: 6) one has to know what that disobedience (eating the forbidden fruit) entailed. For some dumb reason, most, not all, persons stop short when talking about Adam’s Original Sin and thus the rest of the truth is left under the rug.
 
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