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Techno2000
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What will happen when you die, and find out that it was true, that Jesus is God, and now you will be Judged by him… what will you Say ?
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Nick44
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The Bab, Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha have all written many prayers for our use. We are also free to use our own words, but we believe the revealed prayers have a special potency.
bahaiprayers.org/
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Nick44
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I’ll be pleased to have Jesus judge me. What would you say to Him when He asks you why you failed to recognize Him when He returned in His new name?
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Techno2000
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Because, I didn’t think he would be so creepy looking.
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GuyNextDoor
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I would say this is what the Holy Catholic Church which He instituted has taught us and the simple straightforward english in the bible, verified by the greek manuscripts and hebrew texts which gave me the confidence to follow Him. If I should be wrong and the Church is wrong, will my understanding be faulted by Jesus for not giving myself up to some organisation which seemingly twists the scriptures,and other religions out of arrogance in order to have their own religion, which focus so much on a heaven which they claim is on earth? Will Jesus fault me for standing firm & proclaiming His Truth? Will He fault me for taking heed of His warnings so carefully?
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eddie_too
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the bahai doctrine that manifestations(?) contradict themselves from one to the next should be enough for a rational person to reject its proponents out of hand.
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Nick44
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Remember He comes in clouds, my friend. Just another way of saying He is hidden behind many veils…easy to remain hidden and be missed to outward eyes.Because, I didn’t think he would be so creepy looking.
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eddie_too
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why do the bahai believe that God grants them forgiveness? where do they get such an idea?
the bahai offend an infinite being and then say oh well, were sorry and everyone is supposed to believe this makes up for their deliberately choosing to offend almighty God?
why were there ever any manifestations if it only takes a word to make everything right with God?
the bahai offend an infinite being and then say oh well, were sorry and everyone is supposed to believe this makes up for their deliberately choosing to offend almighty God?
why were there ever any manifestations if it only takes a word to make everything right with God?
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GuyNextDoor
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“Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.”
Not every eye saw Husayn Ibn Ali when he came.
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Techno2000
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Jesus and Mary, are the New Adam and the New Eve they are perfectly beautiful in every way, and have no need to hide themselves.
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eddie_too
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most people with even a half-functioning brain can come up with imaginative ideas about mysterious subjects.
the fact that husayn ali came up with imaginative ideas proves nothing.
an empty tomb on the other hand, well now we are talking and have something to talk about.
it is so typical of fallen humans to want to share in the glory of those whom they reject out of hand.
now, I know the bahai will object to my saying they reject Jesus out of hand. it is simply that when a group teaches the opposite of what Jesus taught, they are being totally disingenuous when they say they accept Jesus.
you are not accepting Jesus when you substantively reject everything He taught us humans.
no, husayn ali did not teach anyone to believe in and accept Jesus. husayn ali taught everyone that Jesus was wrong.
most likely husayn ali taught everyone that Jesus was wrong because husayn ali thought that this would make him superior to Jesus. that is typical of the thinking of unredeemed fallen human beings. try to take from those who earned without earning anything themselves.
we, who so choose, have been saved through the blood of Jesus Christ and there is nothing that can change that. there is also nothing else that can save a human being from hell.
the fact that husayn ali came up with imaginative ideas proves nothing.
an empty tomb on the other hand, well now we are talking and have something to talk about.
it is so typical of fallen humans to want to share in the glory of those whom they reject out of hand.
now, I know the bahai will object to my saying they reject Jesus out of hand. it is simply that when a group teaches the opposite of what Jesus taught, they are being totally disingenuous when they say they accept Jesus.
you are not accepting Jesus when you substantively reject everything He taught us humans.
no, husayn ali did not teach anyone to believe in and accept Jesus. husayn ali taught everyone that Jesus was wrong.
most likely husayn ali taught everyone that Jesus was wrong because husayn ali thought that this would make him superior to Jesus. that is typical of the thinking of unredeemed fallen human beings. try to take from those who earned without earning anything themselves.
we, who so choose, have been saved through the blood of Jesus Christ and there is nothing that can change that. there is also nothing else that can save a human being from hell.
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GuyNextDoor
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I am really still waiting for a Baha’i to come help me understand more about their views on Buddhism before I head into the subject of Hinduism. So far all I got from Servant19 is the same accusation he responded to us “the inability to offer sufficient response”, yet all I got from him is “i don’t care about anything else”. Will any Baha’i be kind enough to render their assistance and show “the ability to offer a sufficient response” to this subject? Would love to verify Husayn Ibn Ali’s authenticity.
Actually I am tempted to start a Poll on this subject.
Actually I am tempted to start a Poll on this subject.
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GuyNextDoor
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Good that you cited from Revelation 1:7, IF Jesus’ return is to be hidden by the clouds, can you also explain why did that same verse is immediately followed with “…every eye will see him, even those who pierced him…”?
Can you also explain the immediate follow-up “…and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him.” If the return of Jesus is to be hidden behind veils as you stated, how can people wail on account of Him if they do not recognize Him at all?
Revelation 1:7
"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen."
Can you also show me where & when did every eye saw Husayn Ibn Ali when 'he came with the clouds’?
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arthra
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Eddie wrote above:
*husayn ali did not teach anyone to believe in and accept Jesus. husayn ali taught everyone that Jesus was wrong.
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Thanks for your post Eddie…It may be you are unaware that all Baha’is accept Jesus…and I’ve yet to meet a Baha’i who thinks Jesus was “wrong”.
There are over five hundred references to Jesus in the translated Writings alone!
Here are a few of them:
**You must follow the example and footprints of Jesus Christ. Read the Gospels. Jesus Christ was mercy itself, was love itself. He even prayed in behalf of His executioners—for those who crucified Him—saying, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” If they knew what they were doing, they would not have done it. Consider how kind Jesus Christ was, that even upon the cross He prayed for His oppressors. We must follow His example. We must emulate the Prophets of God. We must follow Jesus Christ. We must free ourselves from all these imitations which are the source of darkness in the world. **
I shall ask you a question: Did God create us for love or for enmity? Did He create us for peace or discord? Surely He has created us for love; therefore, we should live in accordance with His will. Do not listen to anything that is prejudiced, for self-interest prompts men to be prejudiced. They are thoughtful only of their own will and purposes. They live and move in darkness. Consider how many different nations and divergent religious beliefs existed when Christ appeared. Enmity and strife prevailed among them—Romans, Greeks, Assyrians, Egyptians—all warring and hostile toward each other. Christ, through the breaths of the Holy Spirit, united them, established fellowship among them so that no trace of strife remained. Under His standard they became united and lived in peace through His teachings. Which is preferable and more commendable? To follow the example of Jesus Christ or to manifest the satanic instinct? Let us strive with all our powers to unite the East and West so that the nations of the world may be advanced and that all may live according to the one foundation of the religions of God. The essentials of the divine religion are one reality, indivisible and not multiple. It is one. And when through investigation we find it to be single, we have a basis for the oneness of the world of humanity. I will pray for you, asking confirmation and assistance in your behalf.
~ Abdul-Baha Promulgation of Universal Peace
Have a blessed Christmas season Eddie!
*husayn ali did not teach anyone to believe in and accept Jesus. husayn ali taught everyone that Jesus was wrong.
*
Thanks for your post Eddie…It may be you are unaware that all Baha’is accept Jesus…and I’ve yet to meet a Baha’i who thinks Jesus was “wrong”.
There are over five hundred references to Jesus in the translated Writings alone!
Here are a few of them:
**You must follow the example and footprints of Jesus Christ. Read the Gospels. Jesus Christ was mercy itself, was love itself. He even prayed in behalf of His executioners—for those who crucified Him—saying, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” If they knew what they were doing, they would not have done it. Consider how kind Jesus Christ was, that even upon the cross He prayed for His oppressors. We must follow His example. We must emulate the Prophets of God. We must follow Jesus Christ. We must free ourselves from all these imitations which are the source of darkness in the world. **
I shall ask you a question: Did God create us for love or for enmity? Did He create us for peace or discord? Surely He has created us for love; therefore, we should live in accordance with His will. Do not listen to anything that is prejudiced, for self-interest prompts men to be prejudiced. They are thoughtful only of their own will and purposes. They live and move in darkness. Consider how many different nations and divergent religious beliefs existed when Christ appeared. Enmity and strife prevailed among them—Romans, Greeks, Assyrians, Egyptians—all warring and hostile toward each other. Christ, through the breaths of the Holy Spirit, united them, established fellowship among them so that no trace of strife remained. Under His standard they became united and lived in peace through His teachings. Which is preferable and more commendable? To follow the example of Jesus Christ or to manifest the satanic instinct? Let us strive with all our powers to unite the East and West so that the nations of the world may be advanced and that all may live according to the one foundation of the religions of God. The essentials of the divine religion are one reality, indivisible and not multiple. It is one. And when through investigation we find it to be single, we have a basis for the oneness of the world of humanity. I will pray for you, asking confirmation and assistance in your behalf.
~ Abdul-Baha Promulgation of Universal Peace
Have a blessed Christmas season Eddie!
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arthra
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Guy next door! Good to read your post!..I am really still waiting for a Baha’i to come help me understand more about their views on Buddhism before I head into the subject of Hinduism. So far all I got from Servant19 is the same accusation he responded to us “the inability to offer sufficient response”, yet all I got from him is “i don’t care about anything else”. Will any Baha’i be kind enough to render their assistance and show “the ability to offer a sufficient response” to this subject? Would love to verify Husayn Ibn Ali’s authenticity.
Actually I am tempted to start a Poll on this subject.
I think I responded to your post about the Baha’i views on Buddhism some time ago and offered you some reading material… Have you had a chance to review them?
Essentially as I recall the issue you raised was why didn’t the Buddha appear to support the existence of God as Creator or so on.
My response is that there several schools of thought in India at the time… The Buddha in my view was reluctant to support them but also refused to be aligned with the materialist Carvaka school and He taught against animal sacrifices and the caste system… The teachings of Buddha influenced Asoka after he had conquered a good part of India…and missionaries were sent to various places…as I recall as far as Syria.
Abdul-Baha in Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 470 mentioned the Buddha in this brief reference…
**The holy Manifestations Who have been the Sources or Founders of the various religious systems were united and agreed in purpose and teaching. Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Muḥammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh are one in spirit and reality. Moreover, each Prophet fulfilled the promise of the One Who came before Him and, likewise, Each announced the One Who would follow. **
I’m sure you are well aware that the Buddha made reference to future Buddhas such as Meitreya and the Amitabha Buddha
The Guardian wrote in 1941…
“The Buddha was a Manifestation of God, like Christ, but his followers do not possess his authentic writings.”
Not long ago some Buddhist writings were discovered in what was once known as Gandhara…and interestingly the script Kharosthi was believed to be influenced by Aramaic…which I find fascinating… these writings are supposed to be the most ancient Buddhist writings yet discovered.
I have an assignment for you if you wish to check on it and that is to look up apophatic and negative theology… You may be too busy to do this and if you choose not to …I’ll understand!.
- Art
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Servant19
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Hi Guy,
The authenticity of Baha’u’llah’s Revelation is as assured as it can be for what would be considered “scholarship” at this present moment in time.
The entirety of the English translated Writings of Baha’u’llah are available to view in the original manuscripts, either handwritten by Baha’u’llah Himself, or have His official seal stamped upon them. They are available for your viewing pleasure at the Baha’i World Centre on Mount Carmel, Haifa.
Nothing was revealed, committed to memory and passed down from generation to generation. What is unique about the Baha’i Revelation is that recording implements had been employed** “at the point of revelation”**, and these were later verified for their accuracy by Baha’u’llah Himself with His seal of approval on them.
This is, I am sure you would agree, as authentic as it gets when it comes to accuracy and precision. I know my faith is built upon a reliable Word of God
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Servant19
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My faith is not reliant on the Pali Canon, and its contents as we know it today.
Baha’u’llah verified that the Buddha was a Manifestation of God.
He never verified the Pali Canon as being His authentic teachings.
My faith in the Buddha being a Manifestation of God is based on the reality that Baha’u’llah has got** “so many other things right in His Revelation”** that the minor issue of the Buddha being a Manifestation of God or not is taken on absolute faith in Baha’u’llah’s Word…
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Servant19
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Techno what was the chief purpose of the clergy during the early stages of the post-canonization period?
Was it not to provide clarity of understanding the Bible to those that struggled to understand?
A new Revelation is always somewhat challenging to understand. The beauty of our current social climate is that we can be educated (and education is readily available) to advance our language to a level that will make comprehension of Baha’u’llah’s Revelation easier…
I have visited tribal people in the outbacks of Australia who quote the verses of Baha’i Writings and use the language contained within them to a level that puts my English to shame…BRAVO to them for having developed their spiritual capacity through perseverance, patience, love and determination to attain such a level of human accomplishment never before seen by their ancestors!
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Servant19
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All reference to clouds in the Bible is theological language…not literal clouds.
As Pope Benedict asserts:
So if He did not ascend into a cloud occupying a space, He similarly will not descend upon a cloud, occupying a space.
So what does a cloud signify?
When the Pope spoke of the “cloud” being “theological language”, he was suggesting that the sacred author was employing the usage of a stylistic metaphor common throughout the Jewish Tanakh rather than recounting some kind of more physical event, when he related this experience. In the Hebrew Bible, a cloud often expresses two things:
- God’s Glory (ie the “Pillar of Cloud” in Exodus 13:21)
- The Shekhinah (“manifest presence”) of God (ie Hebrews 1:2-3)
So the cloud signifies the “glory of God” being manifest upon His return, and even those who pierced Him will wail. Those who pierced Jesus are not on earth today, so how can they wail? It is in the realm of spirit that they wail.
Nick44 also offers another significance to clouds, which Baha’u’llah elucidates which relates to the veils which cloud the spiritual vision of those on earth. Like all Manifestations of God who came to earth, they were expected to create INSTANT change. Jesus was supposed to unite the whole of Israel immediately as a King with a sword, was He not?
Baha’u’llah too is expected to create instant worldwide recognition. But these verses are as veils which cloud the spiritual reality where all this is actually taking place.
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GuyNextDoor
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Thank you for responding arthra. I have read the links you provided and responded to them on Post 221 before Servant and I went on with further discussions on the subject. Please read up on Post 221, 270, 276, 307 and 324 to better understand where the discussion was left off with a question mark between Servant and me.
Yes you are right. Buddhism has indeed spread to many places from Nepal and there has been many schools in Buddhism such as Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana, etc. From Mahayana onwards, Buddhism has started to include other sutras on their own, mostly compiled from so-called wisdom accumulated by other gurus.
I will only quote sutras in Theravada school since its the oldest surviving school and because their sutras were preserved in the Pali Canon since the day they wrote the first sutra on leaves before copying onto parchments. Nothing was added and nothing removed since the First Council. That is how strict Theravada Buddhism is.
I am aware of them. However a discovery at this point of time which has not been authenticated by the same disciples who heard the sermons of Siddartha Gautama and included into the Pali Canon by the First Council is questionable.
To be honest, I won’t have any faith in any sources outside it, since the Buddhist texts are written by Ananda, the Buddha’s cousin and close personal attendant and thus verified by all the other disciples of the Buddha before being included into the Pali Canon.
Its only fair to acknowledge the texts in the Pali Canon to be more authentic than any sources outside, in the same way you would acknowledge Baha’is writings found within certain Baha’ism perimeters to be authentic, rather than outside it. Won’t you agree?
Yes the Buddha did speak of Maitreya in the Tusita heavens, but a Theravada Buddhist will not come to terms with the existence of the Amitabha Buddha. The Amitabha Sutra is found only in the Mahayana school, and never in Theravada, the oldest surviving school since the days of the Buddha’s direct disciples. Neither did the Buddha taught about Avalokitesvhara in the Pali Canon. Maitreya is the only celestial Bodhisattva recognized by Theravada school.
The Mahayana school was founded during the 2nd Council and fell away from the traditions & disciplines set by the Buddha himself, just like how the Protestants fell away from the Catholic Church. The schism was caused by a group of monks disputing over the strict set of monastic rules and certain academic points, before they left India and became Mahayana. Eg. Theravada Buddhists like the Buddha, will only find their sustenance going around with their alms bowl, you cannot find this detachment from the world in Mahayana.
Ever since then, Mahayana has added and modified sutras before they have their own canon. If you do a research on this topic, you will notice you can never find a Mahayana dominating in any one place which the Buddha’s first disciples has sat and heard the sermons of Siddartha Gautama. Even today, you can only find Mahayana schools outside of Sri Lanka, Thailand and Burma. It is very apparent why that is so.
My point is, if a person’s knowledge of Buddhism derives only from Mahayana, then that person is only acknowledging unauthenticated teachings which did not pass the scrutiny of the Buddha’s first disciples. My sources will only come from the Theravada schools itself and if Baha’is wish to dismiss the Theravada schools, then you can pretty much dismiss the Buddha himself because Baha’ism has scrapped the oldest teachings he has ever taught, leaving nothing for people to verify against, apart from the forceful rejection of the teachings of these so-called “Manifestations of God”, leaving people only blind faith and icons of these founders of the major religions to accept as Baha’is “Manifestations of God”…
Is this a valid assessment to you?
Please read post 221, 270, 276, 307 and 324. All those passages are from the sutras are extracted from the Pali Canon, verified by the very first disciples of Siddartha Gautama.
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