Was Baha'u'llah a Saint ?

[Servant19]

the quotation of bahuallah provided by techno ignores Jesus’ words to the Jews that He is greater than Abraham or moses. Jesus in no way taught that He is the same as or merely equal to the earlier “manifestations” (and I use this word reluctantly because it makes it seem I buy in to the bahai nonsense about all manifestations being the same which on its very face is absurd).

however, there is an element of truth in this bahai doctrine of manifestations. that element is that God does raise up men and women from time to time throughout human history so as to enact His providential will for His human creatures.

certainly history tells us that noah was such a person as well as Abraham, Elijah, david, and Isaiah and the Hebrew prophets. however, since Jesus is the fulfillment of all of the earlier prophets and men of God, since His Ascension it is right to understand that those men and women who are teaching the teachings of almighty God are doing so through faithful loyalty to the Church Jesus established. that would be the RCC. if someone, teaches outside of the authority of the RCC, we can have no confidence that their teachings are faithful to the teachings of the Lord.

it is true that God uses non-catholics to accomplish His Diving Plan, but not in the role of successors to the apostles. one of the best examples of this would be the emperor Constantine whereby God turned the entire impact of the Roman Empire to His advantage. we are often not privy to God’s intentions and how He plans to save the most souls possible. consequently, it may be that in God’s Divine Plan He intends to use people like mohammed, joseph smith and Bahaullah to grow His kingdom and to save souls. if so, it is our finite knowledge and understanding that does not allow us to see how he intends to accomplish this.

we can rest confident, however that, since Jesus, the RCC is the divinely designated arbiter of truth for mankind.

You have misread the quote from Baha’u’llah and misunderstood it dear eddie.

Think of the sun. The winter sun is the same as the summer sun, but there is a difference.

Jesus is acknowledged in the Baha’i Writings as the summer sun in comparison to Moses’ winter sun.

There are significantly deeper connotations to this, and I feel that it would be unwise for me to pursue these concepts right now

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[Servant19]

http://www.ncregister.com/images/sized/images/uploads/transfiguration-255x336.jpgThe Transfiguration
After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Wasn’t this kinda of a clue Servant19 ?

Not sure what you are referring to Techno?

Would you mind elaborating please?

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[Randy_Carson]

Not sure what you are referring to Techno?

Would you mind elaborating please?

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Read Matthew 17.

 

[Servant19]

This Religion screams…New Age, its seem like this was one of the beginnings of the New Age movement.

What is it about the New Age that you do not like Techno?

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[Servant19]

It’s syncretism.

The Baha’i Faith is pretty much as syncretistic as this:

The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.

The Baha’i Faith simply goes further to say that the Founders of some of the major global religions which hold these Truths were not “false prophets” which leads to, and has lead to disunity, contention and strife, but rather Manifestations of the Word of God for the education of the hearts of men.



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[Servant19]

The purpose of my post was to demonstrate that your assertion that God and Jesus must be two entities was incorrect.

So let me make sure I understand you: God was our savior according to Isaiah. Jesus is our new savior but not God. Is this the teaching of Baha’u’llah? Or did he get it from someone else?

Is this correct? Let’s take a look. Notice what Isaiah said, Servant:

Isaiah 45:21
Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.

Now, you can argue that Jesus became the savior after this was written all you want, but the fact of the matter is that God is not “in time” the way we are. All time is “now” to God. So, when He says that He knows of no other “Savior”, He means EVER. That alone is fatal to your argument. But there’s more:

Notice what Peter said:

1 Peter 1:20-21
20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

If Jesus was chosen before the creation of the world to be our savior, then God knew of this “other” savior, Jesus, before He ever inspired the prophet Isaiah to write.

IOW, Servant, God either did or did not know of Jesus AS SAVIOR before Isaiah was ever born. Since God is omnipotent and not bound by time, it is not possible that God did not know that Jesus was our savior. OTOH, if Peter is correct that Jesus was chosen as Savior way BEFORE Isaiah wrote, then it means that Jesus must be God (sharing the divine nature with the Father and not as one person) because God declared through Isaiah that there is no other God and Savior besides Himself.

Dear friend, there are SEVERAL Saviors in the Old Testament:

When the sons of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up a Savior for the sons of Israel to save them, Othniel the son of Kenaz. Judges 3:9

But when the sons of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up a Savior for them, Ehud the son of Gera, the Benjaminite. Judges 3:15

To tell me that when God “chose” Jesus to be the Savior means that Jesus is God, is to tell me that when God chose Othniel and Ehud to be Saviors, that they too are God.

It is abundantly clear that salvation was available to all peoples of the world, and the Savior is YAHWEH, and the “office-bearer” of the salvific process is found in numerous individuals throughout history.

But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving that which I have vowed I will pay. Salvation is from YAHWEH. (Jonah 2:9).

Now to further emphasize that Jesus was an “office-bearer” of God’s salvation, we have the account of Simeon, in Luke:

And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, according to Your word; For my eyes have seen Your salvation. (Luke 2:25-30).

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[Techno2000]

What is it about the New Age that you do not like Techno?

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I kinda like New Age Music,but rest is gobbledygook.

 

[Servant19]

I kinda like New Age Music,but rest is gobbledygook.

That’s very vague

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[GaryTaylor]

The Baha’i Faith is pretty much as syncretistic as this:

The Baha’i Faith simply goes further to say that the Founders of some of the major global religions which hold these Truths were not “false prophets” which leads to, and has lead to disunity, contention and strife, but rather Manifestations of the Word of God for the education of the hearts of men.



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The attempted fusion though wonderful in intention distracts from one point in that the same one, Baha’i Faith, whos Truths are that these were not “false prophets”, is that all are worshiped also, and with self desired worship of the one who makes this claim; Baha’i Faith . Thus not testifying to the Light of the World, but that they are the Light of the World, Baha’i Faith . Jesus Himself addressed this claim and namely with the evil one. Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”

Either Jesus was wrong and the Baha’i Faith is right, or the Baha’i Faith was wrong and the Living God was right. Much elaboration is required from the Baha’i Faith who “simply goes further to say”.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Dear friend, there are SEVERAL Saviors in the Old Testament:

And how many of them were God?

To tell me that when God “chose” Jesus to be the Savior means that Jesus is God, is to tell me that when God chose Othniel and Ehud to be Saviors, that they too are God.

And how many of them were called “God and Savior”?

Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

 

[Servant19]

The attempted fusion though wonderful in intention distracts from one point in that the same one, Baha’i Faith, whos Truths are that these were not “false prophets”, is that all are worshiped also, and with self desired worship of the one who makes this claim; Baha’i Faith . Thus not testifying to the Light of the World, but that they are the Light of the World, Baha’i Faith . Jesus Himself addressed this claim and namely with the evil one. Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”

Either Jesus was wrong and the Baha’i Faith is right, or the Baha’i Faith was wrong and the Living God was right. Much elaboration is required from the Baha’i Faith who “simply goes further to say”.

Baha’i teaching does not go in any way against “Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only” Gary.



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[GaryTaylor]

Baha’i teaching does not go in any way against “Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only” Gary.



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In monotheist understanding of One God you cannot worship who you claim is not God and worship One God who is God… Tis impossible. I think you guys should amend this, surely you have some writing which is holy to help.

 

[Servant19]

And how many of them were God?

And how many of them were called “God and Savior”?

Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

Thankyou for this quote Randy. If you look more thoroughly there is an even more direct reference in the Bible, from Paul revering Jesus as God. I have addressed in another point why this sort of direct equivalence of Jesus as God does not in any way harm Baha’i theology. The Apostles calling Jesus God “enhances” the validity of Baha’i teaching on the station of the Manifestation of God.

In regards to your question “How many of the saviours were called God?” it follows logic that if Christ was the only Saviour which Catholicism espouses (vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01101998_p-18_en.html), then all of Ehud AND Othniel AND Jesus were all one God, OR, none of them were God at all.

Is that faulty reasoning?

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[GaryTaylor]

Servant thats aside from our homoiousian difficulties.

 

[Servant19]

In monotheist understanding of One God you cannot worship who you claim is not God and worship One God who is God… Tis impossible. I think you guys should amend this, surely you have some writing which is holy to help.

Tis not impossible dear friend, because in Catholicism you have Deus a Se and you also have Deus pro nobis. You worship one by worshipping the other

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[Servant19]

Servant thats aside from our homoiousian difficulties.

Baha’is are not homoiousian either dear Gary

It is not the “likeness” of God that you see in a Manifestation of God. It is every active attribute of God in its most perfect expression, that you see in a Manifestation of God…



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[GaryTaylor]

Tis not impossible dear friend, because in Catholicism you have Deus a Se and you also have Deus pro nobis. You worship one by worshipping the other

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The homoiousian difficulties

I noticed the pesky all have sinned verse in my reading too. Whats your thought on that in regards to Jesus and Mary and Mohammed and the others?

 

[Servant19]

So many errors in this post, I am not sure where to begin.

Lets start with this: Isaiah did mean Jesus when he foretold about him all those time.

Isaiah 9:6

**6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
**
Who do you think this child is? Yep Jesus. So who do you think Isaiah referred to when he said Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace? That’s right, God.

This passage alone speaks of the Holy Trinity and of Jesus. Why would he be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace? Common sense & precision reading will tell you that Jesus is God and one of the three Persons in the Holy Trinity. Isaiah himself recognized that.

Before you even go explaining with Husayn Ibn Ali’s station or Jesus’ station because God is one as in singular, it’s better if I explain below since I already know where this is heading.
**
Deuteronomy 6:4
4 “Hear, O Israel: dThe Lord our God, the Lord is one.**

The Hebrew word saying that God is One is אֶחָד (echad) which means composite unity. It is the same word used in Genesis 2:24

**24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
**
The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is of the same essence. Jesus is God. What you are mistaken is that God is only 1 as in absolute unity, one and only…and thus comes all these Husayn Ali’s teachings of Stations here and sun ray there.

The Hebrew word you should be looking for as absolute unity is יָחִיד (yachid) which does not exist anywhere in the scriptures when describing God. However I will await for you to find me that word יָחִיד (yachid) in all the Hebrew texts and I will retract my post.

How do you know the reference in Isaiah is a reference to Jesus?

The divinely ordained Rabbinic Order disagree with you wholeheartedly. Jesus was nowhere near any of those things.

According to the Rabbis who are after all the experts in what Isaiah was really saying, I could easily refer to Baha’u’llah as all of those things (Wonderful, Mighty Father etc etc) and I would be equally valid in the claim.

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[Servant19]

The homoiousian difficulties

I noticed the pesky all have sinned verse in my reading too. Whats your thought on that in regards to Jesus and Mary and Mohammed and the others?

Which all have sinned verse?

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[GaryTaylor]

Which all have sinned verse?

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Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,