Was Baha'u'llah a Saint ?

[Techno2000]

That sounds some really thick soup boiling… gobbledygook gobbledygook. Somebody turn the heat down!

I told my girlfriend today that buddha did not believe in a God… she was shocked, people assume that buddhist believe in God.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

Guy next door… Thanks for your post!

The Buddha in my view had a mission that was not to align Himself with those who were clearly using the Vedas to enrich themselves and keep a hold of the spiritual lives of the population…so He taught “Neti Neti” not this…not that… He opposed using animal sacrifices and allowing priests to have a privileged class… He opposed the caste system of His day…much like Jesus who opposed the class structure of ancient Judaea and the Temple sacrifice system… He released the doves and so on from the Temple precincts.

I do not see what or how all these you posted has anything to do with the Buddha not acknowledging in a Creator God, if he knows there’s one. I am not asking about his deeds, when I know about the sutras inside out. To say he does not acknowledge a Creator when he knows of one, is worse than someone refusing to acknowledge his own parents when he knows he is not an orphan. How did Baha’ism arrive at acknowledging Siddartha Gautama being a ‘manifestation of God’ when all of the other ‘manifestations of God’ acknowledge a Creator God?

 

[GuyNextDoor]

Dear arthra, quoting the link you provide to which I will extract out here to point out the errors:

The Unknowable Essence

Speaking of the Creator, the “First Cause”, the Buddhist Scriptures say:
O disciples, there is a non-born, a non-produced, non-created and a non-formed. If there were not, O disciples, a non-born, a non-produced, a non-created and a non-formed, there would be no issue for the born, the produced, the created, the formed." (Udana, v.81)

Bahá’u’lláh described God in this way:
The birds of men’s hearts, however high they soar, can never hope to attain the heights of His unknowable Essence. It is He Who hath called into being the whole of creation, Who hath caused every created thing to spring forth at His behest … Far be it from His glory that human pen or tongue should hint at His mystery, or that human heart conceive His Essence."

Below is the whole passage of the verse which the link extracted from the sutra:

**‘Monks, there is an unborn, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded. Monks, if that unborn, not-become, not-made, not-compounded were not, there would be apparent no escape from this that here is born, become, made, compounded. But, monks, since there is an unborn, not-become, not-made, not-compounded, therefore the escape from this that here is born, become, made and compounded is apparent.’ **

The non-born, a non-produced, non-created and a non-formed which the Buddha taught in this passage of the Udana is the Nirvana, the highest state attainable. The Buddha did not teach of a Creator God or a First Cause here or anywhere, never did and never will be in his teachings.

Buddhism does not place reliance for salvation on some external power, such as a god or even a Buddha, but places the responsibility for life’s frustrations squarely on the individual. Here’s what the Buddha taught:

By oneself, indeed, is evil done; By oneself is one defiled.
By oneself is evil left undone; By oneself indeed is one purified.
Purity and impurity depend on oneself. No one purifies another.

The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Paths after having found the cause of suffering and taught people how to eradicate suffering so mankind does not need to go through the cycles of rebirth endlessly. If you read all and I mean ALL his teachings (not through the eyes of a Baha’i) instead of a little here and a little there, you will understand what he is really teaching and not what Baha’ism is attempting to tell you what the Buddha is teaching.

God is not what Buddhism is about, the eradication of suffering is. From the way I see it, no offense…Baha’ism has fell into its own soup of leftovers when it tries to cook everything together, especially Buddhism.

 

[Techno2000]

God is not what Buddhism is about, the eradication of suffering is.

Which is the opposite of Catholicism, which says suffering has merit in God’s eyes.

 

[Servant19]

Which is the opposite of Catholicism, which says suffering has merit in God’s eyes.

So you suffer in heaven Techno?

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[Servant19]

Dear arthra, quoting the link you provide to which I will extract out here to point out the errors:

Below is the whole passage of the verse which the link extracted from the sutra:

**‘Monks, there is an unborn, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded. Monks, if that unborn, not-become, not-made, not-compounded were not, there would be apparent no escape from this that here is born, become, made, compounded. But, monks, since there is an unborn, not-become, not-made, not-compounded, therefore the escape from this that here is born, become, made and compounded is apparent.’ **

The non-born, a non-produced, non-created and a non-formed which the Buddha taught in this passage of the Udana is the Nirvana, the highest state attainable. The Buddha did not teach of a Creator God or a First Cause here or anywhere, never did and never will be in his teachings.

Buddhism does not place reliance for salvation on some external power, such as a god or even a Buddha, but places the responsibility for life’s frustrations squarely on the individual. Here’s what the Buddha taught:

By oneself, indeed, is evil done; By oneself is one defiled.
By oneself is evil left undone; By oneself indeed is one purified.
Purity and impurity depend on oneself. No one purifies another.

The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Paths after having found the cause of suffering and taught people how to eradicate suffering so mankind does not need to go through the cycles of rebirth endlessly. If you read all and I mean ALL his teachings (not through the eyes of a Baha’i) instead of a little here and a little there, you will understand what he is really teaching and not what Baha’ism is attempting to tell you what the Buddha is teaching.

God is not what Buddhism is about, the eradication of suffering is. From the way I see it, no offense…Baha’ism has fell into its own soup of leftovers when it tries to cook everything together, especially Buddhism.

Whether Buddha taught the existence of God or not, in a direct sense, is not so much relevant.

I actually have not come across one Buddhist who does not believe in God…maybe I’m just lucky

The point being that the “highest state attainable” is an “unborn” …how can one “attain” unborn-ness without being uncreated? The only “uncreated” is God…

Buddhism implied God, but did not state it categorically, and many Buddhists I know acknowledge this implication.

The Baha’i application of the “progressive revelation” conceptual framework offers the explanations that arthra gave above, relating to Neti Neti

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[Techno2000]

So you suffer in heaven Techno?

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No, suffering in this mortal life while on the planet earth, if there was suffering in Heaven then it wouldn’t be Heaven.

 

[Techno2000]

The Baha’i application of the “progressive revelation” conceptual framework offers the explanations that arthra gave above, relating to Neti Neti

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Now that I know that… “progressive revelation” will take care of everything, I feel better now.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Whether Buddha taught the existence of God or not, in a direct sense, is not so much relevant.

I actually have not come across one Buddhist who does not believe in God…maybe I’m just lucky

The point being that the “highest state attainable” is an “unborn” …how can one “attain” unborn-ness without being uncreated? The only “uncreated” is God…

Buddhism implied God, but did not state it categorically, and many Buddhists I know acknowledge this implication.

The Baha’i application of the “progressive revelation” conceptual framework offers the explanations that arthra gave above, relating to Neti Neti

.

Was Buddhism was closer to God than Abraham was and his dispensation? In fact the Buddha (who did not really care to speak about God or the need to worship him) was closer to God right? Are atheistic followers of the Buddha closer to God than theistic Jews who follow Moses? They must be per the standard of progressive revelation right?

 

[Servant19]

No, suffering in this mortal life while on the planet earth, if there was suffering in Heaven then it wouldn’t be Heaven.

So you too believe in “eradication of suffering”…

CCC 1025
"To live in heaven is “to be with Christ.”

Can this be done in this life, before our physical death? Buddhists thinks so…and as in the tradition of Neti Neti, they don’t say, we want to “be with Christ”, they say we want to eradicate everything that is “not Christ”…for everything that is not Christ leads to suffering…

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[Servant19]

In fact the Buddha (who did not really care to speak about God or the need to worship him)

What is your proof of this Ignatian?

Where does Buddha say that there is NO GOD?
And where does the Buddha say we should not worship?

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[IgnatianPhilo]

What is your proof of this Ignatian?

Where does Buddha say that there is NO GOD?
And where does the Buddha say we should not worship?

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Where does the Buddha say we must worship God? Where does he stress it’s importance? The fact that there can be atheistic buddhists who simply don’t care about the divine is proof of that no? But answer the question, Who is closer to God, the atheistic buddhist simply trying to escape suffering (which was the main teaching of the so called Buddha) or the Jew who worships God (although you said the jew worships a figment of his imagination)?

 

[Servant19]

Where does the Buddha say we must worship God? Where does he stress it’s importance? The fact that there can be atheistic buddhists who simply don’t care about the divine is proof of that no? But answer the question, Who is closer to God, the atheistic buddhist simply trying to escape suffering (which was the main teaching of the so called Buddha) or the Jew who worships God (although you said the jew worships a figment of his imagination)?

My humble perspective is that anyone who does not acknowledge Baha’u’llah as the Manifestation of God for this age and rejects Him is equally distant from God.

“Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.” - Baha’u’llah

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[Techno2000]

So you too believe in “eradication of suffering”…

CCC 1025
"To live in heaven is “to be with Christ.”

Can this be done in this life, before our physical death? Buddhists thinks so…and as in the tradition of Neti Neti, they don’t say, we want to “be with Christ”, they say we want to eradicate everything that is “not Christ”…for everything that is not Christ leads to suffering…

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The more suffering one had to go through in this life, the more Glory you will get in Heaven… the last will be first, and the first will be last… the rich man becomes poor in Heaven and poor becomes rich in Heaven.The more you have in this life the less you will have in Heaven. God and Heaven… is the opposite of the devil and the world.Thats why the Saints give up everything in this life and suffer so that they will be rich in the next life.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

My humble perspective is that anyone who does not acknowledge Baha’u’llah as the Manifestation of God for this age and rejects Him is equally distant from God.

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No no no, progressive revelation does not equal that. We are forever moving closer to the divine. To say that each of the relgiions before yours is equally incorrect (Or distant from God) is to dismiss the entire notion that we are progressing in spiritual health and proximity towards the divine in religious matters. You said in the last thread that Jews are worshipping figments of their imagination and that Christians are more justified because of their worship of Jesus as God (which you said was allowed). Tell me is the Muslims just as wrong as the Christian? Just as seperated from God as we are? Or does God when the next religion comes along just place theirs at the bottom of the ladder with the rest?

I mean you do realise when your religion is replaced by God’s next big idea your beliefs and everything contained in them will be just as wrong as Christianity by this standard? You will be in another 1000 years you will be as equally distant from God as I am it seems.

 

[Techno2000]

My humble perspective is that anyone who does not acknowledge Baha’u’llah as the Manifestation of God for this age and rejects Him is equally distant from God.

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What if your humble perspective is wrong ?

 

[Servant19]

The more suffering one had to go through in this life, the more Glory you will get in Heaven…

Yes, and what do you think the Buddha did?

Why do you think the monks go to their monasteries and push themselves to the limits of physical human and spiritual endurance?

Suffering itself brings an end to suffering…THIS IS HEAVEN

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[Techno2000]

No no no, progressive revelation does not equal that. We are forever moving closer to the divine. To say that each of the relgiions before yours is equally incorrect (Or distant from God) is to dismiss the entire notion that we are progressing in spiritual health and proximity towards the divine in religious matters. You said in the last thread that Jews are worshipping figments of their imagination and that Christians are more justified because of their worship of Jesus as God (which you said was allowed). Tell me is the Muslims just as wrong as the Christian? Just as seperated from God as we are? Or does God when the next religion comes along just place theirs at the bottom of the ladder with the rest?

I mean you do realise when your religion is replaced by God’s next big idea your beliefs and everything contained in them will be just as wrong as Christianity by this standard? You will be in another 1000 years you will be as equally distant from God as I am it seems.

Good point… when do these" Revelations" stop progressing ?

 

[Servant19]

I mean you do realise when your religion is replaced by God’s next big idea your beliefs and everything contained in them will be just as wrong as Christianity by this standard? You will be in another 1000 years you will be as equally distant from God as I am it seems.

I’m totally comfortable with that.

Religion declines. THe teachings are lost over time. The human expressions and patterns become more and more interjected with “man-made” interjections. I’m confident when humans are involved all manner of problems and tragedies occur to God’s religion.

It is for this reason that God sends new Manifestations of God, to remove the “man-made” and bring back the Divine…

I’m confident that polytheism is a man-made device to explain the “attributes of God”…the original teachings of Krishna, Buddha, Moses and even Jesus may very well have been interjected with lots of human hands over time.

That is why, when it aligns with the “signed and sealed” Writings of Baha’u’llah we say

If not, there are all manner of explanations. Progressive revelation is one explanation, but human interjections and corruption are another. There are others too…

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[Servant19]

Good point… when do these" Revelations" stop progressing ?

When does God no longer have a creation??

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