Was Baha'u'llah a Saint ?

[IgnatianPhilo]

As far as I am aware, Baha’u’llah says nothing about who is closer to God, the atheist Buddhist or the monotheist. What is really in the heart of the atheist Buddhist may be a lot more theistic than what you might give them credit for.

God is the judge of all Ignatian, you know that. How can I possibly comment? None knoweth their fate…

It’s a silly question and you know it brother!

.

Silly question for an even more silly religion I suppose. But the question demands answering if you are committed to this concept of progressive revelation. If the point of all of these manifestations is to bring us closer to God, which is your argument for the necessity of Ali Hussain, then it must follow that since the Buddha come after Abraham, his followears, both theistic or atheistic are closer to God than the Jews who worship figment of their imagination, your words not mine.

In fact, your inability to confirm this question will mean you will be unable to confirm it for your own religion’s necessity. For you must believe yours is the best path because yours is the newest religion offered by God. The same should be with Buddhism, which doesn’t really care about God, as much as it cares about escaping suffering and the universe. This is a big problem for Baha’i because if you confirm that Buddhism is greater than Judaism and the law of Moses, you admit belief in God is not so important as the acations of individual.

But prove to me that Buddhists require belief in God, that the Buddha taught this. I don’t think you can.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

My humble perspective is that anyone who does not acknowledge Baha’u’llah as the Manifestation of God for this age and rejects Him is equally distant from God.

I am willing to bet my life that he is just Husayn Ali, a nobody. Just another good guy becoming a false prophet like Joseph Smith and the rest.

I would humbly suggest you study the life of the Buddha, and then you will see the wisdom of the ascetic life seen in Buddhist monasticism and how the principles are so very close to Christian ascetism…

Funny that I was about to say the same to you before you said it to Techno.

How many Buddhist sutras have you studied to get the big picture what the Buddha actually taught? Or did you actually obtained your information on what the Buddha taught from Baha’ism?

Wisdom comes from knowledge which also comes from information. But information does not necessarily give you knowledge, and knowledge does not necessarily give you wisdom.

 

[Servant19]

So the devilish characteristics… was already in the Big Bang right from the start ?

Prejudice and hatred are not made of electrons and protons etc…

You are mixing your material things with spiritual things.



.

 

[Techno2000]

Prejudice and hatred are not made of electrons and protons etc…

You are mixing your material things with spiritual things.



.

Ok, so these devilish characteristics were in the sperm, and the egg right from the start when God created them ?

 

[Servant19]

Ok, so these devilish characteristics were in the sperm, and the egg right from the start when God created them ?

They are not in the sperm and the egg, that would make them physical characteristics, which they are not

Also, Bahais don’t call them devilish characteristics, we call them “potentialities of capacity”

That means that we are made with a huge potential and capacity to do good. The degree to which we fulfill our potential for good is the difference between being in a state of hell (distant from God) or heaven (nearness to God)

.

 

[Servant19]

Silly question for an even more silly religion I suppose. But the question demands answering if you are committed to this concept of progressive revelation. If the point of all of these manifestations is to bring us closer to God, which is your argument for the necessity of Ali Hussain, then it must follow that since the Buddha come after Abraham, his followears, both theistic or atheistic are closer to God than the Jews who worship figment of their imagination, your words not mine.

In fact, your inability to confirm this question will mean you will be unable to confirm it for your own religion’s necessity. For you must believe yours is the best path because yours is the newest religion offered by God. The same should be with Buddhism, which doesn’t really care about God, as much as it cares about escaping suffering and the universe. This is a big problem for Baha’i because if you confirm that Buddhism is greater than Judaism and the law of Moses, you admit belief in God is not so important as the acations of individual.

But prove to me that Buddhists require belief in God, that the Buddha taught this. I don’t think you can.

You are making the incorrect assumption that Judaism and Hinduism and Buddhism were intended to be global religions. They were not. They were revealed and founded during a time where little was known of the world, and so where relatively region specific at the time. Those who were Hindu found heaven through Buddhism.
Those who were Hebrew found heaven through Moses.

Buddha taught about God by claiming there was an Uncreated. There is nothing other than God that is Uncreated. What proof do you have that Buddha taught no God exists?

.

 

[Techno2000]

That means that we are made with a huge potential and capacity to do good. The degree to which we fulfill our potential for good is the difference between being in a state of hell (distant from God) or heaven (nearness to God)

.

We have something similar in the Catholic Faith: Those who were the most Ungrateful for the Pain and Sufferings of Jesus go to the lowest levels of Hell,and those who were the Most Grateful go to the Highest Levels of Heaven.

 

[Servant19]

We have something similar in the Catholic Faith: Those who were the most Ungrateful for the Pain and Sufferings of Jesus go to the lowest levels of Hell,and those who were the Most Grateful go to the Highest Levels of Heaven.

We have much more in common than you think…

.

 

[Servant19]

You have an odd way of twisting words. Did I say or imply that the OT is false. Or did I simply point out that your interpretation is incorrect?

You can’t just Google the word “savior” in the Bible and automatically assume that because the word appears on one verse, it must mean the exact same in another verse. Context is everything.

For example, I can “raise” money for a charity, too, and I might be considered a “savior” by those I help, but I am not their savior in the sense that I have atoned for their sins by the shedding of my own blood.

**The word “savior” in the sense of the goalie’s “save” is not the same as Jesus’ salvific work on the cross. Thus, “savior” can have very different meanings.

Do you agree?**

We aren’t going to get very far if you can’t acknowledge that distinction.

This is true.

What separates Jesus AS SAVIOR is that His blood was shed as an atoning sacrifice for our sins AND by rising from the dead, He proved Himself to be God.

Othniel and Ehud did neither of those things. So, while they were saviors in the same sense that a general who leads an army to victory is the savior of his people, they were not saviors in the sense that their blood did nothing for you and me.

And we do not disagree as to whether they were “saviors”; we also agree that God raised them up as saviors. No problem.

Did either of them offer their blood as a sacrifice for the sins of the people? Further, since neither of them WAS GOD, their blood was insufficient to atone for the sins of all humanity even if they had.

Othniel and Ehud were God. Is this Baha’i teaching or did you come up with this on your own?

Othniel, Ehud and Baha’u’llah. All men who died, were buried and never rose again.

These are your Gods, Servant? If so, your “gods” are too small to be worthy of your worship.

You make some fair and valid points here Randy.

The only reason Othniel and Ehud were ever brought up was to point out that just because the Old Testament says that Yahweh is the Saviour and Jesus is a Saviour does not automatically give rise to the deduction that Jesus is God.

That’s all I’m trying to say.

And Bahai teaching in no way states that Othniel and Ehud were God.



.

 

[Servant19]

Remember, Jesus is God, but not uncreated God, right?

You believe that Jesus was not uncreated??

.

 

[Servant19]

Well, if anything, I think that private, one-on-one evangelism is the way they ought to go.

Exposing Baha’u’llah’s faulty reasoning in a public forum accessible to anyone with an internet connection and a browser seems like a bad idea.

Kinda counterproductive, don’tcha think?

Just to let you know that Abdu’l-Baha travelled across Europe and the US and taught the Bahai Faith to often quite large Church congregations. His talks to these congregations can be found in books such as Paris Talks for example.

A large majority of European and US Bahais came from these large scale settings.



.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

Whether Buddha taught the existence of God or not, in a direct sense, is not so much relevant.

I actually have not come across one Buddhist who does not believe in God…maybe I’m just lucky

The point being that the “highest state attainable” is an “unborn” …how can one “attain” unborn-ness without being uncreated? The only “uncreated” is God…

Buddhism implied God, but did not state it categorically, and many Buddhists I know acknowledge this implication.

That is faulty reasoning if you have truly read all of the Buddhist sutras in detail without any prejudice. Its the same faulty reasoning that some ignorant Buddhist-Taoist mish mash fell into.

Buddha taught about God by claiming there was an Uncreated. There is nothing other than God that is Uncreated. What proof do you have that Buddha taught no God exists?

If the Buddha does not acknowledge a Creator God exists, how is he to teach that “not born and not made” means God?

This is what the Buddha himself taught:

**If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why does he order such misfortune
And not create concord?

If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why prevail deceit, lies and ignorance
And he such inequity and injustice create?

If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Then an evil master is he, (O Aritta)
Knowing what’s right did let wrong prevail!

Bhûridatta Jataka**

There’s your proof. He just insulted the Creator God.

The Buddha argues that the three most commonly given attributes of God’s omnipotence, omniscience and benevolence towards humanity cannot all be mutually compatible with the existential fact of dukkha.

So now, either the Buddha, your ‘manifestation of God’ is wrong or he is lying since Baha’ism teaches of a Creator God.

 

[Techno2000]

It must be a Very Merry Convoluted Christmas time for the Bahá’í faith this time of year.What in the world do people in your religion say about Christmas.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Good point… when do these" Revelations" stop progressing ?

Never. First, note that there is no definitive list of who is a manifestation of God.

“These Messengers, Whom Bahá’u’lláh called “Manifestations of God ,” are principally the Founders of the major revealed religions, such as Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, and so forth.”

If such is the case, there should at least be agreement regarding each founder’s teachings on God. However, just the opposite is true.

• Krishna taught that God is pantheistic.
• Buddha was agnostic and indifferent to God’s existence.
• Muhammad was intensely monotheistic.
• And Jesus taught of a triune God.

Either these founders contradict each other (making it impossible to discern between a true founder and a false one), or the nature of God is contradictory (which is self-defeating and absurd), or the Baha’i Faith is false.

Further, by allowing these contradictory messages to be delivered by these “manifestations”, God Himself is culpable for all the religious wars between groups who follow one manifestation or another. Maybe our Baha’i friends can answer this question:

Why did God, in His infinite Wisdom and Omniscience, not foresee the possibility that followers of Muhammed would go to war with and kill the followers of the previous manifestation, Jesus?

The same may be said of Christian persecutions of the followers of another manifestation, Moses, of course.

Not only is there no official list of manifestations in the past, but there are more manifestations expected in the future…about one every thousand years or so:

In reality, there is only one religion, the religion of God. This one religion is continually evolving, and each particular religious system represents a stage in the evolution of the whole. The Bahá’í Faith represents the current stage in the evolution of religion. To emphasize the idea that all of the teachings and actions of the Manifestation are directed by God and do not originate from natural, human sources, Bahá’u’lláh used the term “revelation” to describe the phenomenon that occurs each time a Manifestation appears. In particular, the writings of the Manifestation represent the infallible Word of God. Because these writings remain long after the earthly life of the Manifestation is finished, they constitute an especially important part of the phenomenon of revelation. So much is this so, that the term “revelation” is sometimes used in a restricted sense to refer to the writings and words of the Manifestation.

Religious history is seen as a succession of revelations from God and the term “progressive revelation” is used to describe this process. Thus, according to Bahá’ís, progressive revelation is the motive force of human progress, and the Manifestation Bahá’u’lláh is the most recent instance of revelation.

Bahá’u’lláh taught that the time interval between two Manifestations may be about one thousand years. He also taught that the process of revelation will not stop with His revelation and that another Manifestation will come after Him, though not before the expiration of one thousand years from Bahá’u’lláh’s coming. According to the Bahá’í writings, the process of revelation will continue indefinitely into the future and humankind will see the coming of a great many more Manifestations.

info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-4.html

 

[Servant19]

That is faulty reasoning if you have truly read all of the Buddhist sutras in detail without any prejudice. Its the same faulty reasoning that some ignorant Buddhist-Taoist mish mash fell into.

If the Buddha does not acknowledge a Creator God exists, how is he to teach that “not born and not made” means God?

This is what the Buddha himself taught:

**If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why does he order such misfortune
And not create concord?

If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why prevail deceit, lies and ignorance
And he such inequity and injustice create?

If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Then an evil master is he, (O Aritta)
Knowing what’s right did let wrong prevail!

Bhûridatta Jataka**

There’s your proof. He just insulted the Creator God.

The Buddha argues that the three most commonly given attributes of God’s omnipotence, omniscience and benevolence towards humanity cannot all be mutually compatible with the existential fact of dukkha.

So now, either the Buddha, your ‘manifestation of God’ is wrong or he is lying since Baha’ism teaches of a Creator God.

I’m certainly no expert in Buddhism, but this passage certainly does not say that there is no God.

It most certainly insults God, but which God is the Buddha referring to? Shiva (with some benevolence characteristics)? Yama (with some justice characteristics)?
Most likely Brahma since he was the creator god, in which case, the Buddha was obviously insulting polytheism, of which Brahma was one of many gods…
Nobody knew of one God in the climate in which the Buddha taught. I may be wrong, I’m no expert.

But I do know something. If Jesus had taught that Buddha was a Prophet of God, we would not be having this discussion.

Baha’u’llah is my Jesus, so Buddha is a Manifestation of God.

What needs to be discussed is who was Baha’u’llah?

.

 

[Servant19]

It must be a Very Merry Convoluted Christmas time for the Bahá’í faith this time of year.What in the world do people in your religion say about Christmas.

We are all just a confused mess of 10 million people at Christmas time.

Ramadan is simply a disaster in my house!

My son turns 13 next year, I’ve banned the word “Moses” in my house…



.

 

[Techno2000]

Never. First, note that there is no definitive list of who is a manifestation of God.

“These Messengers, Whom Bahá’u’lláh called “Manifestations of God ,” are principally the Founders of the major revealed religions, such as Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, and so forth.”

If such is the case, there should at least be agreement regarding each founder’s teachings on God. However, just the opposite is true.

• Krishna taught that God is pantheistic.
• Buddha was agnostic and indifferent to God’s existence.
• Muhammad was intensely monotheistic.
• And Jesus taught of a triune God.

Either these founders contradict each other (making it impossible to discern between a true founder and a false one), or the nature of God is contradictory (which is self-defeating and absurd), or the Baha’i Faith is false.

Further, by allowing these contradictory messages to be delivered by these “manifestations”, God Himself is culpable for all the religious wars between groups who follow one manifestation or another. Maybe our Baha’i friends can answer this question:

Why did God, in His infinite Wisdom and Omniscience, not foresee the possibility that followers of Muhammed would go to war with and kill the followers of the previous manifestation, Jesus?

The same may be said of Christian persecutions of the followers of another manifestation, Moses, of course.

Not only is there no official list of manifestations in the past, but there are more manifestations expected in the future…about one every thousand years or so:

In reality, there is only one religion, the religion of God. This one religion is continually evolving, and each particular religious system represents a stage in the evolution of the whole. The Bahá’í Faith represents the current stage in the evolution of religion. To emphasize the idea that all of the teachings and actions of the Manifestation are directed by God and do not originate from natural, human sources, Bahá’u’lláh used the term “revelation” to describe the phenomenon that occurs each time a Manifestation appears. In particular, the writings of the Manifestation represent the infallible Word of God. Because these writings remain long after the earthly life of the Manifestation is finished, they constitute an especially important part of the phenomenon of revelation. So much is this so, that the term “revelation” is sometimes used in a restricted sense to refer to the writings and words of the Manifestation.

Religious history is seen as a succession of revelations from God and the term “progressive revelation” is used to describe this process. Thus, according to Bahá’ís, progressive revelation is the motive force of human progress, and the Manifestation Bahá’u’lláh is the most recent instance of revelation.

Bahá’u’lláh taught that the time interval between two Manifestations may be about one thousand years. He also taught that the process of revelation will not stop with His revelation and that another Manifestation will come after Him, though not before the expiration of one thousand years from Bahá’u’lláh’s coming. According to the Bahá’í writings, the process of revelation will continue indefinitely into the future and humankind will see the coming of a great many more Manifestations.

info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-4.html

The Manifestation of Confusion.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

I’m certainly no expert in Buddhism, but this passage certainly does not say that there is no God.

This passage won’t tell you there is no Creator God? Alright I will be a little flexible and buy your theory for the moment that the Buddha did teach about a Creator God, even though it is evident in this passage he said IF.

It most certainly insults God, but which God is the Buddha referring to? Shiva (with some benevolence characteristics)? Yama (with some justice characteristics)?

Most likely Brahma since he was the creator god, in which case, the Buddha was obviously insulting polytheism, of which Brahma was one of many gods…
Nobody knew of one God in the climate in which the Buddha taught.

Which Creator God? Correction. You are suggesting here that a Creator God who created everything in this world creating another Creator God of another land, who in turn created another Creator God of a different land again? How many Creator Gods can there be before they become created gods?

**If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why does he order such misfortune
And not create concord?

If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why prevail deceit, lies and ignorance
And he such inequity and injustice create?

If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Then an evil master is he, (O Aritta)
Knowing what’s right did let wrong prevail!

Bhûridatta Jataka**

Please explain your understanding of ‘creator of the world entire’. Creator of India/Nepal? So how many Creator Gods must there be to create the whole world before they become created Gods?

Baha’u’llah is my Jesus, so Buddha is a Manifestation of God.

What needs to be discussed is who was Baha’u’llah?

We are discussing the authenticity of Husayn Ibn Ali, Servant.

Lets not be too hasty to dismiss the Buddha, Servant. You were pretty quick & confident to ask for evidences earlier, so its only fair to let me answer you until one of us is satisfied. I have several more passages to dispel Bahaism beliefs that the Buddha taught about the existence of a Creator God later on, but I will go along with you and deal with this first.

As you said, the Buddha is one of Baha’is manifestation of God, declared by Husayn Ibn Ali himself.

So what Husayn Ibn Ali (bahaullah?) has taught about the Buddha is in error because as you stated yourself, the Buddha insulted a Creator God (if he ever believed in the existence of one in the first place).

Side Question: Out of honest curiousity, how did you become a Baha’i without reading all the religions that Bahaism has incorporated extensively before acknowledging it is the truth?

 

[Techno2000]

How can all these past Manifestations be incorporated into the Bahá’í Religion when they must first be vetted through rigors of Science according to The CEO of the Bahá’í Faith, Abdu’l-Baha

Words of Abdu’l-Baha :

“If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science, they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible, and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation.”

Words of Abdu’l-Baha :

“spiritualism as such is not taught by the Bahá’í religion. Our Master has said that religion and true science must go together and most of these things have not been proved by science.”

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

You are making the incorrect assumption that Judaism and Hinduism and Buddhism were intended to be global religions. They were not. They were revealed and founded during a time where little was known of the world, and so where relatively region specific at the time. Those who were Hindu found heaven through Buddhism.
Those who were Hebrew found heaven through Moses.

Buddha taught about God by claiming there was an Uncreated. There is nothing other than God that is Uncreated. What proof do you have that Buddha taught no God exists?

.

So Asians are only allowed to be Buddhist? Now tell me is it necessary for you as a Baha’i to worship God? Because if so this , us mean hat yours is greater than Buddhism. Now can you show where in Buddhism, we are to adore the Divine? I don’t think you can.

But this does open up new possibilities of thought, that God arranges his religion according to demographic. Perhaps Abraham represents beta Judaism, and Jesus Judaism 3.0, Muhammed Judaism 4.0 and then I suppose yours Judaism 5.0.

Maybe Buddhism is hinduism 2.0 in which case we need an update for Asia.

You also say you like Australian aboriginal religion, they are are long due a 2.0 version.

Maybe Mormonism is America’s 1.0

Truly the ways of God are strange to us men.