Was Christ always fully man and fully God, even before Incarnation?

[comrade1789]

Maybe a silly question, but Was Christ always fully man and fully God, even before Incarnation? The reason I ask is that Christ who existed before the foundation of the world, begotten, not made, who was not created in the image of God, but IS the Image of God, would all this mean that he was always fully God and fully Man, or was he only fully God and Man after the Incarnation, but before that was only fully God as the 2nd Person of the Trinity?

Somehow, being God being eternal, the Incarnation is when eternity entered time, so God being outside of chronological or linear time, is it conceivable then that he could have existed as fully God and Man before He ever took the form of Man in the temporal order? I ask this also because I was thinking about God the Father having no form, yet man was created in the image of God, and when God wanted to be visible to man, he took the form of man. So that got me wondering that if man was made in the image of God, then perhaps this might suggest that God the Son eternally is fully man and fully God,not just since the Incarnation.

I hope I made my pondering clear, not sure how to better word it. Can anyone clear this up for me?

Thanks.

 

[afthomercy]

The Incarnation is the event in time, of the Second Person assuming a human nature in addition to his eternally held divine nature. Thus, I would think that Christ was only “fully God” before the Incarnation, and in addition became “fully man” at the point of Incarnation.
Let’s imagine, for a moment, that Christ was fully man even before the incarnation, but kept invisible to mankind. Too many difficulties would arise, some of which are:
(a) A human is always born of a woman. So of whom was this eternal prehistoric human Christ born? Will we now have to invent an eternally existant human mother for him? If he didn’t have Adam’s genes, then he is not even part of the human race!
(b) If his human form pre-existed Mary, then she was only his surrogate mother. This is inconsistent with our belief that he was concieved of her.
(c) Humanity implies a physical body, which in turn implies a physical place. Where was he ‘parked’ till he entered Mary’s womb? Didn’t he age?

The right way in which the phrase “made in the image and likeness of God” should be understood, is: “if the spirit-only God were ever to take on a physical body, he would look exactly like a man” and this is what happened at the Incarnation!

 

[DavidKays]

Maybe a silly question, but Was Christ always fully man and fully God, even before Incarnation? The reason I ask is that Christ who existed before the foundation of the world, begotten, not made, who was not created in the image of God, but IS the Image of God, would all this mean that he was always fully God and fully Man, or was he only fully God and Man after the Incarnation, but before that was only fully God as the 2nd Person of the Trinity?

Somehow, being God being eternal, the Incarnation is when eternity entered time, so God being outside of chronological or linear time, is it conceivable then that he could have existed as fully God and Man before He ever took the form of Man in the temporal order? I ask this also because I was thinking about God the Father having no form, yet man was created in the image of God, and when God wanted to be visible to man, he took the form of man. So that got me wondering that if man was made in the image of God, then perhaps this might suggest that God the Son eternally is fully man and fully God,not just since the Incarnation.

I hope I made my pondering clear, not sure how to better word it. Can anyone clear this up for me?

Thanks.

Hi! I am a Greek Orthodox Christian and in my Church there have been some statements that may or may not help answer your question. To put it simply Jesus is fully God before the Incarnation and then took on a human nature to be fully Man after the incarnation. The Greek Fathers of the Church always had in my opinion better statements regarding this issue than the Latin Fathers. The Greeks in my opinion were more into mystical theology as in the case of St.John Chrysostom. I wish Catholics will study the Greek Fathers more and read what they have to say. As for me I have read and studied the Latin Church Fathers and after so many years I find a difference between the both. The Greeks tend to speak from their experience. The Eastern Way wants to engage in all the emotions that will help them to express their beliefs. Instead of thinking about God which is basically the Western Way they want to experience all those emotions that our Lord felt while He was on Earth. One of the things that the Greek Fathers have said was that to be fully Human is to be fully Divine. That is if you wish to be exactly like God then allow your humanity to be fully expressed. That is the more you become Human the more you become like God. The Greeks Fathers had also an expression which stated that God became Man so that Man may become " God ". And to do this we need the Grace of God to help us. As the Gift of the Holy Spirit works and grows within us we become more Human thus revealing our truest humanity and self and by cooperating with that Grace we can grow to become like God. In the truest sense God is the most Perfect Human ever. God gave us humanity the greatest gift possible that is the potential to grow into our humanity with His Grace to become more like Him. So in some respective God even though He was fully God before the Incarnation can be said to be fully Human as well. All He took was Human flesh at the Incarnation. But His Humanity that which was expressed in the Flesh was in Him all the time. Again the Greek Fathers will say to be fully Human is our goal. Once that has been acheived then we become fully like God. So then we can also say that Jesus was also Fully God and yet He was fully Human even before the Incarnation. All He did different at the Incarnation was to take on Human flesh yet His Humanity was always there. This is how the Greek Fathers talk. In my opinion it is much deeper thought than what is taught in the West.

 

[DPMartin]

Maybe a silly question, but Was Christ always fully man and fully God, even before Incarnation? The reason I ask is that Christ who existed before the foundation of the world, begotten, not made, who was not created in the image of God, but IS the Image of God, would all this mean that he was always fully God and fully Man, or was he only fully God and Man after the Incarnation, but before that was only fully God as the 2nd Person of the Trinity?

Somehow, being God being eternal, the Incarnation is when eternity entered time, so God being outside of chronological or linear time, is it conceivable then that he could have existed as fully God and Man before He ever took the form of Man in the temporal order? I ask this also because I was thinking about God the Father having no form, yet man was created in the image of God, and when God wanted to be visible to man, he took the form of man. So that got me wondering that if man was made in the image of God, then perhaps this might suggest that God the Son eternally is fully man and fully God,not just since the Incarnation.

I hope I made my pondering clear, not sure how to better word it. Can anyone clear this up for me?

Thanks.

comrade

good question:

How does God know what is for Him, or against Him? Could it be by revelation of His Word?

As far as when God’s Presence was in His creation, that was when

Gen:1:2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. ** And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.**

And then He spoke.

3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

And then He witnessed the Light that it was what He said:

4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

And divided the Light from that which did not let there be Light.

Therefore what is God’s Word in respect to the creation of man?

26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Therefore the creation of man in God’s image, likeness is fulfilled. And He is pleased. Note the statement in

Luke:3:38: Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Which became tarnished, less then God’s Will and Expectation. In guilt in shame and in blame. Not God’s image, nor likeness. Not the Will of God for His son, or sons.

Which without that which is of God, His Word, that is of God, in His Presence (Holy Spirit) cannot be restored. For if man cannot see God, then how is he to be in God’s image or likeness without the revelation of God’s Word?

Hence the Lord God states what He will do about it:

Gen:3:15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And just like when He made himself present in His creation. Did He in the Son of man, our Lord Jesus Christ. Conceived of the Holy Spirit and not of a man, through the woman, Virgin Mary, that is the Word of God reveal in the world, not to the world (in the world) as in (human existence).

Therefore the proof is in the pudding. In human existence. Not about human existence, nor to human existence. In human existence. Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God in the Presence of God (Holy Spirit) that is directly of God (only begotten ) hence Son of God, fulfilled in the Son of man, restoring the ability to the sons of men to become sons of God in the fulfillment according to God the Father’s Will. Which is what Jesus did for us, that we are not able to do of our own.

He, Jesus, Without guilt, without shame, without blame, restoring us to the same, in our repentance from ourselves and unto Him. In His Grace, His Mercy and His Forgiveness.

That which fulfilled the Will of God, by the Word of God in the Presence of God, which is the Image and Likeness of God in the Son of man. God’s Will restored, in man.

 

[comrade1789]

Thank you all for your responses. I must have been really tired or foggy and don’t know why I was all of a sudden confused on this issue. Our Creed spells it out clearly, "He came down from heaven, was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

 

[PJM]

=comrade1789;7325044]Maybe a silly question, but Was Christ always fully man and fully God, even before Incarnation? The reason I ask is that Christ who existed before the foundation of the world, begotten, not made, who was not created in the image of God, but IS the Image of God, would all this mean that he was always fully God and fully Man, or was he only fully God and Man after the Incarnation, but before that was only fully God as the 2nd Person of the Trinity?

Somehow, being God being eternal, the Incarnation is when eternity entered time, so God being outside of chronological or linear time, is it conceivable then that he could have existed as fully God and Man before He ever took the form of Man in the temporal order? I ask this also because I was thinking about God the Father having no form, yet man was created in the image of God, and when God wanted to be visible to man, he took the form of man. So that got me wondering that if man was made in the image of God, then perhaps this might suggest that God the Son eternally is fully man and fully God,not just since the Incarnation.

I hope I made my pondering clear, not sure how to better word it. Can anyone clear this up for me?

Thanks.

The short answer is NO

However; As an “All-Knowing God” He would have always been aware that it would happen, which is not the same thing as “BEING” both God and man.

Love and prayrers,
Pat

 

[thomas_jd]

Maybe a silly question, but Was Christ always fully man and fully God, even before Incarnation? The reason I ask is that Christ who existed before the foundation of the world, begotten, not made, who was not created in the image of God, but IS the Image of God, would all this mean that he was always fully God and fully Man, or was he only fully God and Man after the Incarnation, but before that was only fully God as the 2nd Person of the Trinity?

Somehow, being God being eternal, the Incarnation is when eternity entered time, so God being outside of chronological or linear time, is it conceivable then that he could have existed as fully God and Man before He ever took the form of Man in the temporal order? I ask this also because I was thinking about God the Father having no form, yet man was created in the image of God, and when God wanted to be visible to man, he took the form of man. So that got me wondering that if man was made in the image of God, then perhaps this might suggest that God the Son eternally is fully man and fully God,not just since the Incarnation.

I hope I made my pondering clear, not sure how to better word it. Can anyone clear this up for me?

Thanks.

Read the Nicene Creed and you will get a better understanding.

 

[afthomercy]

The Greeks Fathers had also an expression which stated that God became Man so that Man may become " God ".

This thought resonates with the prayer which the celebrant utters during the Offertory [Latin rite], at the time of mixing the water and wine:
“O God,
Who wonderfully created the dignity of man’s nature,
and have more wonderfully renewed it,
grant that, through the mystery of this water and wine,
we may be made partakers of His divinity
Who humbled Himself to become a partaker of our humanity,”

The West is not so far from the East, after all!

When the Greek Fathers state “to be fully Human is to be fully Divine… That is if you wish to be exactly like God then allow your humanity to be fully expressed”, I presume they are talking in the figurative sense rather than in the literal sense. We have before our eyes 3-creatures who were not corrupted by sin and hence could be described as being “fully human”, viz. Adam & Eve (pre-Fall) and Mary. Even Mary, who had the highest conceivable in-filling of the Holy Spirit, could not be said to come anywhere close to divinity in the literal sense.

It is true that Jesus is the most perfect expression of humanity, but that is in His human nature and not in His divine nature, hence to say that “In the truest sense God is the most Perfect Human ever” seeks to dissolve the distinction between Humanity and Divinity, which is not acceptable.

 

[DavidKays]

This thought resonates with the prayer which the celebrant utters during the Offertory [Latin rite], at the time of mixing the water and wine:
"O God,
Who wonderfully created the dignity of man’s nature,
and have more wonderfully renewed it,
grant that, through the mystery of this water and wine,
we may be made partakers of His divinity
Who humbled Himself to become a partaker of our humanity,"

The West is not so far from the East, after all!

When the Greek Fathers state “to be fully Human is to be fully Divine… That is if you wish to be exactly like God then allow your humanity to be fully expressed”, I presume they are talking in the figurative sense rather than in the literal sense. We have before our eyes 3-creatures who were not corrupted by sin and hence could be described as being “fully human”, viz. Adam & Eve (pre-Fall) and Mary. Even Mary, who had the highest conceivable in-filling of the Holy Spirit, could not be said to come anywhere close to divinity in the literal sense.

It is true that Jesus is the most perfect expression of humanity, but that is in His human nature and not in His divine nature, hence to say that “In the truest sense God is the most Perfect Human ever” seeks to dissolve the distinction between Humanity and Divinity, which is not acceptable.

Hi my friend! It must be hard for Catholics to understand the mysticism of the East since the West tends to be preoccupied with reading than experiencing. I understand your concerns and it may take some time before you can fully understand my statements. Mysticism tends to be not understood properly at first and therefore rejected by many but in reality it can give the deeper and best answers to our quests for understanding who we are and to what are our relationship with God. When I said that God is the most perfect human you must understand that there is no distinction between the human and the divine because Jesus showed that to us and is the example for us. God is teaching us that in our own humanity it is possible to be like Him except in His Divinity. Therefore it is through our humanity that we can acheive this likeness. This is why God gave us this humanity. In some respects it is a great distinction of His own Self. God cannot make us identical to Himself by giving us Divinity so He choose to give us something in order that we can acheive this likeness, and that is in our humanity. In order though for a person to grow in his humanity he needs the Holy Spirit. Without the cooperation of you and God you might as well forget it. But with the cooperation of God we can acheive great heights to become fully human and in the end become 100% in the image and likeness of God. We already have that image stamped into us and now we need to grow into His Likeness. But it is through our humanity cooperating with the Divinity that this is possible. It is possible to receive and acquire the Holy Spirit in this life so that you can radiate Him and still be human. By allowing yourself to be filled with God that is the Holy Spirit then you are allowing your humanity to be fully expressed. The 2 go together. That is why God created us to be human because in the flesh which we can see we are able to become like Him who we can’t see. It is through material things that God choose to divinized. We are not replaced by divinity but are filled with it. Once we are filled then we act and move like our Lord. There can be no more distinction because the divinity is now filled into our humanity. This cooperation is what I am talking about and is possible for every person. In the person of the Blessed Virgin Mary we see this in its fullness. But for us we need to acquire the Holy Spirit daily so that we can acheive what the Blessed Mother has in its fullness. Adam and Eve even though they had the stamp of God’s image did not have His Full likeness. They still had to grow in that way. The Greek Fathers all gave Adam and Eve not the hardness that the Latin Fathers gave and so their teachings on sin were more not on the grave side as so many Latin Fathers had expressed St.Augustine been one. The sin of Adam and Eve was not as grave and serious to the Greeks as it was to the Latins. It was still possible after the Fall to grow into the likeness of God but it is now through His Grace and Mercy.

 

[PJM]

This thought resonates with the prayer which the celebrant utters during the Offertory [Latin rite], at the time of mixing the water and wine:
"O God,
Who wonderfully created the dignity of man’s nature,
and have more wonderfully renewed it,
grant that, through the mystery of this water and wine,
we may be made partakers of His divinity
Who humbled Himself to become a partaker of our humanity,"

The West is not so far from the East, after all!

When the Greek Fathers state “to be fully Human is to be fully Divine… That is if you wish to be exactly like God then allow your humanity to be fully expressed”, I presume they are talking in the figurative sense rather than in the literal sense. We have before our eyes 3-creatures who were not corrupted by sin and hence could be described as being “fully human”, viz. Adam & Eve (pre-Fall) and Mary. Even Mary, who had the highest conceivable in-filling of the Holy Spirit, could not be said to come anywhere close to divinity in the literal sense.

It is true that Jesus is the most perfect expression of humanity, but that is in His human nature and not in His divine nature, hence to say that “In the truest sense God is the most Perfect Human ever” seeks to dissolve the distinction between Humanity and Divinity, which is not acceptable.

***VERY WELL DONE! Thanks,

Let us pray for unfication!

God Bless,
Pat***

 

[dtg]

I think the difference is that He probably didn’t grow up in Heaven.

---

The Bible in a Verse

But now once at the conclusion of the ages Jesus has
appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Hebrews 9: 26b

 

[PJM]

=dtg;7330467]I think the difference is that He probably didn’t grow up in Heaven.

---

The Bible in a Verse

But now once at the conclusion of the ages Jesus has
appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Hebrews 9: 26b

Two problems with these statements:

John.4: 1.[23] But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. 2.[24] God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

*** Our Triune God-head is A SPIRIT, not physical matter, all though God as demonistrated has the power and ability to assume what ever form suits Him.

Any “growing up” had to be done by the infant Jesus while on earth; and in addition to natural physical developement; Christ also “learned,” which is say, “experienced humanity.” As GOD He certainly knew; but had not actually experienced it.

The second issue: “and put away sin” in actually anti-biblical. This means, NOT ONLY is it NOT in the Bible, BUT actually contradicts trachings on the topic of sin that are in the Bible.

ONE of the most basic rules of understanding the bible correctly is:

No one set of verses can contradict another set of verses. Were this to be even a possibility; then TRUTH COULD NOT EXIST. And without truth, the Bible would have no value at all for Faith isues.***

2nd. Peter Chapter One verse 20-21 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

2 Pet.3: 16 “peaking of this as he [PAUL] in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. “

** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. ** There is sin which is mortal**; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, ** but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. ** Jesus said to them ** again, “Peace be with you. ** As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” ** And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

***I pray friend that this informations aids your understanding.

May God continue to guide you,
Pat***

 

[afthomercy]

God cannot make us identical to Himself by giving us Divinity so He choose to give us something in order that we can achieve this likeness, and that is our humanity. …We already have that image stamped onto us and now we need to grow into His likeness. But it is through our humanity cooperating with the Divinity that this is possible. … By allowing yourself to be filled with God that is the Holy Spirit then you are allowing your humanity to be fully expressed. The 2 go together… This cooperation is what I am talking about and is possible for every person. In the person of the Blessed Virgin Mary we see this in its fullness.

My dear friend, thanks for the clarification. As far as the quoted parts of your message are concerned, I’m in full agreeement with you. There’s no disconnect, we are on the same page. I’d even go so far as to say that where the “fullness of humanity” is concerned, Jesus [in his human nature of course] and the Blessed Virgin Mary are at par.

Humanity is like a hot air balloon, which can reach the heights of Divinity by firing up the Holy Spirit gas within. Here we have all the ingredients for a successful mission: A vehicle (humanity), gas (Holy Spirit/grace) and our will/co-operation (fire)
I’m not so sure whether we need to “acquire the Holy Spirit daily”. He has been poured into us at Baptism, and that single dose is enough.

The soft/harsh treatment of original sin in the two traditions is an interesting one. Thanks for mentioning it, as I am not at all familiar with Greek Orthodox thought. It is a very fundamental one for the West, and I’m guessing that it must be one of the stumbling blocks to unification.

 

[DavidKays]

Hi afthomercy! I like to know more about your rite. Exactly what is your rite, where did it began and are there many who belong to it. Are you in Communion with Rome? Are there any Orthodox Churches nearby? When I mentioned about acquiring the Holy Spirit daily this is a common Orthodox expression used by many of her Saints. One particular Saint was St.Seraphim of Russia. He has written about it and gave us probably the best statement regarding the acquistion of the Holy Spirit. There is no limit in receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Orthodox Church teaches that it is possible to grow into this gift in such a way that a person can and will radiate this gift to others as did St.Seraphim of Russia. In fact when the Saint was talking to a friend of his the Saint’s eyes and face were lit up and began to shine such as the Lord Jesus did at the Transfiguration. The friend decided to close his eyes and face and the Saint said to put your hands down for you too are radiating the Holy Spirit as well and while the friend put his hands down he was suprised that he too was radiating this same gift. The Saint said to him " Let us thank the Lord Jesus and His Holy Mother for all I had to say was show him Lord this gift and the Lord did so." The Saint use to say that the aim of the Christian life is the acquistion of the Holy Spirit. Yes you do receive Him at Baptism, this is your first dosage but it does not end there. We can receive Him daily to a point where in the Saint you are able to radiate Him through your senses towards others. If you will like I can give some examples on how to receive Him. The best way to receive the Holy Spirit is through prayer and the sacraments and then to find time to be with Him. Then you are constantly in contact with Him to discover who you are in your relation to Him. You need time for this and it can be done even in your own home. St.Seraphim sat on a rock for over 1000 days and it was there he was constantly attacked by the evil spirits who would try to scare him from his ascetical duty. He constantly yelled to his Lord for help for the devils were constantly trying to interfere with his union with God. After this great struggle the Lord awarded him with great gifts and allowed the Holy Spirit to fill every part of his own self. He became the wisest and best known Saint of Russia. He use to say that preaching was easy when said with words. In fact his life now has become a sermon. He said that preaching is like throwing a rock at the top of the mountain and letting it drop to the bottom. But to live and practice that sermon is to take that rock at the bottom and climb back to the top. The Saint also said " Have peace in your soul and thousands around you will be saved! ". To acquire this gift means a great struggle must occur. You will experience in this struggle the presence of the evil one and this will be a sign that you are on the right track. The Greek Fathers did not believe that the Original Sin of Adam and Eve was great. Let me explain that one day a 5 year old girl was visiting my store with her father. Unknowing to her father she grabbed a plastic rosary. About a block away the father noticed it in her hands and told her we need to bring it back. As they began to return it to the store I noticed how much trembling the young girl was going through. She thought it was the most terrible thing to do that she took a small plastic rosary. Shaking all the time how can I convince her that it wasn’t that bad. I believe this is how the Greek Fathers saw the sin of Adam and Eve. It wasn’t a big deal before God but it was to them. I am sure the Lord felt for them the same way I felt for that little 5 year old girl.

 

[afthomercy]

Hi afthomercy! I like to know more about your rite. Exactly what is your rite, where did it began and are there many who belong to it. Are you in Communion with Rome? Are there any Orthodox Churches nearby? When I mentioned about acquiring the Holy Spirit daily … The Greek Fathers did not believe that the Original Sin of Adam and Eve was great…

Thanks for sharing all that you did on the acquisition and radiation of the Holy Spirit. We are on the same wavelength here.

Since you take a soft view on Original Sin, it flows for you not to subscribe to the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Incidentally the Latin rite parish in my locality is named after this very Dogma!

Here are some quick facts and a brief history of my Church, which is the Syro Malabar Church:
The Syro-Malabar Church is an Oriental (Eastern Rite) Catholic Church, one of the 21 Oriental Catholic Churches worldwide. The 21 Oriental Churches and the Latin Church together form the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, a Communion of 22 individual Churches under the Pope.

My Church (pop. approx 4 million) is a very vibrant church and is the second largest eastern rite church, being second only to the eastern rite Ukrainian Church. In 1992, Pope John Paul II raised us to the level of a Major Archiepiscopal Church. We have 26 dioceses (and expanding), of which five are Archdioceses. Major Archbishop Cardinal Mar Varkey Vithayathil is our head.

The term “Syro-Malabar refers to the East Syrian or Chaldean tradition we follow and to the Malabar Coast where Apostle Thomas landed in AD 52. It is believed that he came to India and landed at Kodungallur on the Kerala (south west India) coast. He preached the Gospel to the high caste families of Kerala, many of whom received the faith. He established several churches and moved on to the East coast of India. He was martyred near Little Mount, Madras (now Chennai) and his body was brought to Mylapore (Near Madras) and was buried there.
A connection to the East Syrian Church (Chaldean) was established after the arrival of another Thomas and several families from Cana (Knai Thomman) in the 4th century. This infused new blood to the sagging old church established by St.Thomas and the church began to be ruled by East Syrian (Chaldean) bishops… The Indian church however, did not join the East-Syrian Church or priests from India were not made bishops. This situation lasted for about eleven centuries.
With the arrival of the Portuguese explorer, Vasco De Gama to Calicut on the Kerala Coast in 1498, a Latin connection began to take shape. The Portugese were happy to discover the St.Thomas Christians on the West coast of India, but did not like their connection to East-Syrian Church. Pointing out some expressions in their liturgical texts, the Portugese alleged that St.Thomas Christians believed in the Nestorian Heresy. The Synod of Diamper (Udayamperur) in 1599 convened by the Latin Archbishop Menezes of Goa brought an end to the connection between St.Thomas Christians and East-Syrian Church. St.Thomas Christian Church, thus became a colonial Church of the Portugese.
The Latin connection also brought division to the St.Thomas Christians. The Coonan Cross Oath in 1653 at the Church of Our Lady of Life at Mattanchery was the culmination of several years of latinization by the Portuguese, and the crowd gathered there took an oath that they would not be subject to the Portuguese Archbishop of Goa, Francis Garcia. This revolt eventually split the Church into two: one group continued to recognize the prelates appointed by Rome and the other broke away from Rome and joined the West-Syrian Jacobite Church of Antioch. This group came to be known as the Jacobites (Puthankootukar) or Syrian Orthodox Church of India. The Marthomites separated from the Jacobites in the 19th century due to Anglican Church influence. The Jacobites were further divided into two groups: Methran Kakshi or the Bishop’s group (Syrian Orthodox Church of India) whose Catholicos or supreme head resides at Devalokam, Kottayam and the Bhava Kakshi or Patriarch’s Group (Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church of India) whose head is the Antiochene Jacobite Patriach.
After the Coonan Cross Oath, Rome began to take an active interest in the Kerala Christians. Several Carmelite monks were sent to Kerala and Carmelite Vicar Apostolics were residing at Varapuzha. Also, the Portuguese nominated administrators or archbishops for Malabar who were stationed at Kodungallur. This dual jurisdiction also was cause for complaints to Rome. In 1787, Representatives from 84 churches assembled in Angamly and drew up a document called Angamaly Padiyola which made a strong demand to Rome for native bishops, citing the sins of omission and commission of the foriegn missionaries. In 1861, the arrival of a Chaldean Catholic bishop, Thomas Rokkos sent by the Chaldean patriach created more problems. He was excommunicated on his arrival by the Vicar apostolic of Varapuzha, and a schism followed. Another Chaldean bishop, Elias Melus arrived in 1874 and he too met the same fate. The Syrian Christians, popularly known as the Surais, in and around Thrissur who owe allegiance to the Syrian Nestorian patriarch are the followers of the schism Melus created.
Finally in 1887, Pope Leo XIII decreed the separation of Rite of St.Thomas Catholics from that of the Latins.

 

[Evan]

Thank you all for your responses. I must have been really tired or foggy and don’t know why I was all of a sudden confused on this issue. Our Creed spells it out clearly, "He came down from heaven, was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

Here is how St Paul puts it in Phil 2:5-7

Make your own the mind of Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped. But he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, becoming as human beings are; and being in every way like a human being,

 

[DavidKays]

Thanks afthomercy for giving me a great detail about the history of your rite. Quite extensive and moving. I do adhere to the teaching of the Immaculate Conception. I understand it fully and I have no problem with it and I do accept it. It does make sense what occured for the Holy Mother. If I was God and I wanted a mother I will want the most perfect mother and I will not want the devil to have any part of her at all. To do this at her conception makes sense so that she will have a great head start. The Orthodox tend to say she became immaculated at the annunciation but I do not accept that. If God wanted His Mother to be immaculated why wait until the annunciation? No He can give that Grace to her anytime and giving her that Grace at her conception just makes more sense. Now she is free to become what God has made her for. To become the Temple of God. And to give her at her conception this priviledge Grace will enable her to grow to become the Mother of God. Thanks for all your info on your church!

 

[afthomercy]

If God wanted His Mother to be immaculated why wait until the annunciation? No He can give that Grace to her anytime and giving her that Grace at her conception just makes more sense. Now she is free to become what God has made her for. To become the Temple of God. And to give her at her conception this priviledge Grace will enable her to grow to become the Mother of God.

Another reason why Immaculation at Conception makes more sense, is that it beautifully supports the dogma of the Assumption. If the Blessed Virgin Mary had been touched by sin upto the Annunciation, then there would have to be restitution for it either in this life or in purgatory. Then we would be prevented from saying with certainty that she went straight up to heaven.

 

[afthomercy]

…Any “growing up” had to be done by the infant Jesus while on earth; and in addition to natural physical developement; Christ also “learned,” which is say, “experienced humanity.” As GOD He certainly knew; but had not actually experienced it…

This statement troubles somewhat me because it comes close to eastern/Hindu view that God created the universe to experience Himself. They say that the formless God has all the knowledge but no experience, so He created the universe (as a material extension of himself) in order to experience himself!

How to reconcile?

 

[afthomercy]

I put together some of the thoughts expressed on this thread in the form of an article, which readers are free to contribute to any Christian publication:

THE GIFT OF HUMANITY

• by A.F. Thomas afthomercy@yahoo.com

“O God,
Who wonderfully created the dignity of man’s nature,
and have more wonderfully renewed it,
grant that, through the mystery of this water and wine,
we may be made partakers of His divinity
Who humbled Himself to become a partaker of our humanity,
Our Lord, Jesus Christ.”(prayer said by the priest at the time of mixing the water and wine, during the Offertory rite)

When God created the human person, He modeled his nature on the lines of His own. This made it ‘easier’ for Him to assume the human nature at the time of the Incarnation. The revelations that God was to be incarnated in human form and that a human would be crowned Queen of Heaven would have rankled with Archangel Lucifer and his camp, because it would mean that they would have to pay obeisance to a lower life form – humans are lower than angels in the hierarchy of persons. This hurt their pride to the point of rebellion.

The intention of the Creator in stamping us with His image and likeness is that we may come to know Him, love Him and be united to Him, as the Catechism teaches us. For this, the co-operation of the Holy Spirit is vital. Without the co-operation of the Holy Spirit, you might as well forget about it! This cooperation is possible for everyone, and in Jesus and the Blessed Virgin Mary we see this in its fullness. Receiving the Holy Spirit commences at Baptism and continues throughout life through prayer and the sacraments.

Adam and Eve made the mistake of believing that it is possible to become ‘equal to’ God, when their aim should have been to become ‘united to’ Him. Contrast this with the attitude of Jesus, who: “though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him…” (Phil 2:6-9a)

Eastern religions that believe in reincarnation also value humanity as THE best form of creation, because humanity has buddhi (intellect), without which it is not possible to attain ‘moksha’, which is freedom from the ‘cycle of rebirth’ and final union with God. Although the Church has the ‘fullness of truth’, this is another example of the spark of truth shining through other religions also!

We may conclude this reflection with the realization that our humanity is such a rich blessing by God, and it is something to be cherished and embraced. In fully descending into our humanity, we get elevated to the heights of divinity through the action of the Holy Spirit!