Was Christianity ever a "Jewish sect"?

[Qoeleth]

From another discussion, something I wonder about:

Is it correct or appropriate to say “Christianity was initially a Jewish sect”?

I take Christianity necessarily to involve belief in the Divinity of Jesus. As far as I understand Judaism (which is not that much), such a belief would make one “non-Jewish”. Someone (a Jewish person), recently pointed out to me that “Messianic Jews” and “Jews for Jesus”, were, in fact, better described as “Christians”.

How would a Jewish person feel about the statement: “Christianity started as a Jewish sect”.

Personally, I think Christian is one religion (centered on the belief of the Divinity of Christ), and Judaism is another (in which the idea of ‘God taking flesh’ is untenable). So, Christianity was never simply ‘a branch of denomination of Judaism’, but a whole new religion (acknowledging a certain overlap in what we regard as Sacred writings).

 

[Reuben_J]

In a way it can be seen that way.

Generally it wasn’t meant as another religion which is Christianity. It was meant to be a progression of Judaism and Jesus was the Messiah that the Jews were waiting for.

It was much later when it was clear that the then mainstream Judaism would not accept it. They were not called Christians then, probably the Way, but obviously still considered themselves Jewish. It was only later they called themselves Christians at Antioch, probably realising the divorce from Judaism was a point of no return.

It nevertheless tried to recruit the Jews into their rank and early Christian preachers would still use the synagogues in the various Roman provinces as springboards for their evangelization. … and later began to bring in the Gentiles especially with the rise of St Paul as one of the main preachers.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

Today, ethnically Jewish people are different from religiously Jewish. You are Jewish if your mother was Jewish, but that doesn’t mean you are a practicing Jew. 2,000 years ago, there was little distinction between the two because everyone fulfilled their expected religious obligations (even Mary and Joseph). Certainly, from the authorities, Jesus was considered an issue among the Jews.

From the Roman point of view, after the Resurrection, Christians may have been a “Jewish sect”, but from the Jewish religious leaders point of view, they were no longer living according to the Jewish laws. Christians were recognized as their own entity rather quickly, especially once Gentiles were brought in (Acts).

There were other religions at that time, so it didn’t take long to establish Christians as a separate group. Especially once they began to cause trouble for the authorities. Christians caused unrest in Jewish settlements. The persecutions began rather quickly as a result.

 

[GEddie]

Today, ethnically Jewish people are different from religiously Jewish. You are Jewish if your mother was Jewish, but that doesn’t mean you are a practicing Jew. 2,000 years ago, there was little distinction between the two because everyone fulfilled their expected religious obligations (even Mary and Joseph). Certainly, from the authorities, Jesus was considered an issue among the Jews.

From the Roman point of view, after the Resurrection, Christians may have been a “Jewish sect”, but from the Jewish religious leaders point of view, they were no longer living according to the Jewish laws. Christians were recognized as their own entity rather quickly, especially once Gentiles were brought in (Acts).

There were other religions at that time, so it didn’t take long to establish Christians as a separate group. Especially once they began to cause trouble for the authorities. Christians caused unrest in Jewish settlements. The persecutions began rather quickly as a result.

You would be accepted as Jewish, provided you had the blood, even if you rejected the religion (i.e., were atheist); but not if you followed another religion (i.e., believed in Jesus).

Messianic Jews cannot claim citizenship of Israel, and those born there are not fully accepted.

But the first Christians (and their Head!) were Jewish. It was the events of AD70 that led to the permanent division of the two faiths.

ICXC NIKA

 

[PJM]

From another discussion, something I wonder about:

Is it correct or appropriate to say “Christianity was initially a Jewish sect”?

I take Christianity necessarily to involve belief in the Divinity of Jesus. As far as I understand Judaism (which is not that much), such a belief would make one “non-Jewish”. Someone (a Jewish person), recently pointed out to me that “Messianic Jews” and “Jews for Jesus”, were, in fact, better described as “Christians”.

How would a Jewish person feel about the statement: “Christianity started as a Jewish sect”.

Personally, I think Christian is one religion (centered on the belief of the Divinity of Christ), and Judaism is another (in which the idea of ‘God taking flesh’ is untenable). So, Christianity was never simply ‘a branch of denomination of Judaism’, but a whole new religion (acknowledging a certain overlap in what we regard as Sacred writings).

ANSWER: NO

For at least two reasons:

[1] St Luke was not a Jew newadvent.org/cathen/09420a.htm

[2] It is an impossibility to separate any and all churches from their CHOSEN set of Faith beliefs.; and thus Catholics are separated by Differing sets of Faith beliefs, and not literally members of the “same church” [ie: faith set.]

To BE a “Jewish sec” implies to STILL be a follower of Judaism; and what Christ Desires and DID accomplish was to establish a near completely NEW Religion to compete with bot Judaism I Paganism. Which is WHY Jesus choose the term “church” which 1st appears in His Testament of Mt 16:18-19 " "
[18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church[Singular], and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven

Pagans would have their Temples; Jews their Synagogues, and Christ followers would have their "Church"

GBY

 

[meltzerboy]

From another discussion, something I wonder about:

Is it correct or appropriate to say “Christianity was initially a Jewish sect”?

I take Christianity necessarily to involve belief in the Divinity of Jesus. As far as I understand Judaism (which is not that much), such a belief would make one “non-Jewish”. Someone (a Jewish person), recently pointed out to me that “Messianic Jews” and “Jews for Jesus”, were, in fact, better described as “Christians”.

How would a Jewish person feel about the statement: “Christianity started as a Jewish sect”.

Personally, I think Christian is one religion (centered on the belief of the Divinity of Christ), and Judaism is another (in which the idea of ‘God taking flesh’ is untenable). So, Christianity was never simply ‘a branch of denomination of Judaism’, but a whole new religion (acknowledging a certain overlap in what we regard as Sacred writings).

Based on what I have read, I believe Christianity was a Jewish sect at the start. There were a group that called themselves Jewish Christians, which I suppose emphasizes the Christian element more than the Jewish. Still, they considered themselves Jews who believed in Jesus as the Messiah and Son of G-d. Later, the rabbis disavowed such “Jews” on a theological basis; however, historically speaking, these Christians–whose offspring today are Messianic Jews, Hebrew Catholics, Nazarene Jews, and the like–were regarded as Jews.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Based on what I have read, I believe Christianity was a Jewish sect at the start. There were a group that called themselves Jewish Christians, which I suppose emphasizes the Christian element more than the Jewish. Still, they considered themselves Jews who believed in Jesus as the Messiah and Son of G-d. Later, the rabbis disavowed such “Jews” on a theological basis; however, historically speaking, these Christians–whose offspring today are Messianic Jews, Hebrew Catholics, Nazarene Jews, and the like–were regarded as Jews.

I agree with meltzerboy, but I do not believe they called themselves Christians at that early time, simply those that believed Jesus as the Messiah. I believe they were still seen as Jews though.

 

[ltwin]

There is a really interesting article at My Jewish Learning that looks at the split from the perspective of Christians, Jews, and Romans. I don’t think the split was something that happened over night but something that developed over decades.

. . . After the destruction, the tannaim immediately recognized the need to standardize and unify Judaism. One of the first steps was to standardize the Eighteen Benedictions, which, along with the Shema, constituted the core of the daily prayers.

At the same time, they expanded an old prayer to include an imprecation against the minim, Jews with incorrect beliefs. In this period, this could only have meant the early Jewish Christians, who observed the laws of Judaism but accepted the messiahship of Jesus. Although the rabbis continued to regard the early Christians as Jews, they reformulated this prayer in order to expel them from the synagogue, as testified to by the Gospel of John and the church fathers.

In addition, the tannaim enacted laws designed to further separate the Jewish Christians from the community by prohibiting commerce and certain interrelationships with them.

Hereafter, it is possible to trace the process of separation from the end of the first century C.E. until the period of the Bar Kokhba Revolt (132‑135 C.E.), when the tannaim outlawed the writings of the early Christians, declaring that Torah scrolls or texts with divine names copied by Christians had no sanctity. This was clearly a polemic against the Gospels, which must have been circulating in some form by now.

In the time of Paul, about 60 C.E., the decision to open Christianity to gentiles had taken place, and the tannaim grad*ually found themselves facing a church whose members were not Jews from the point of view of halakhah [Jewish law]. To the rabbis, they were not Jews with incorrect views about the messiah but gentiles who claimed to be the true Israel. For this reason, the tannaim began to see the Christians as the other, not as Jews who had gone astray.

This process was complete by the Bar Kokhba period [a brief period of Jewish sovereignty following the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba against the Romans in 132 CE]. Jewish Christianity had been submerged, while Gentile Christianity had gained the ascendancy. Since it was now virtually the only form of Christianity the rabbis encountered, they termed the Christians notzerim (“Nazarenes”), regarding them as a completely separate and alien religious group.

It also goes on to say that the Roman government under the Emperor Nerva (96-98 AD) no longer made Christians pay the fiscus judaicus, a tax on Jews that was punishment for the First Jewish-Roman War. Interestingly, it seems that Jewish Christians may have also been excluded from paying the tax as well.

 

[Qoeleth]

There is a really interesting article at My Jewish Learning that looks at the split from the perspective of Christians, Jews, and Romans. I don’t think the split was something that happened over night but something that developed over decades.

It also goes on to say that the Roman government under the Emperor Nerva (96-98 AD) no longer made Christians pay the fiscus judaicus, a tax on Jews that was punishment for the First Jewish-Roman War. Interestingly, it seems that Jewish Christians may have also been excluded from paying the tax as well.

But simply believing Christ is the Messiah (excuse the tautology) does not make a person a Christian. The Ebionites and Nazoreans (early Chritian/Jewish groups) were not actually Christians (but Jews who accepted the ethical teachings of Jesus), since the didn’t believe in the Divinity of Christ.

Remember, Muslims call Jesus the Messiah (it’s in the Koran) and believe in the Virgin birth, miracles, moral teachings of Jesus. But there not quite Christian, because the don’t accept the full Divinity.

Christian began when people believe in the Divinity, not just Messiahship, of Jesus. So, for this reason, to be a Christian (as opposed to a Jew who accepts Jesus as Messiah, or a Muslim, for that matter), a person must accept the Divinity of Christ. And for this reason, I don’t think it makes sense for a person to be both a religious Jew and a Christian at the same time.

Of course, Christian could follow Jewish customs, etc. to some extent, but that’s a different thing.

 

[7_Sorrows]

But simply believing Christ is the Messiah (excuse the tautology) does not make a person a Christian. The Ebionites and Nazoreans (early Chritian/Jewish groups) were not actually Christians (but Jews who accepted the ethical teachings of Jesus), since the didn’t believe in the Divinity of Christ.

Remember, Muslims call Jesus the Messiah (it’s in the Koran) and believe in the Virgin birth, miracles, moral teachings of Jesus. But there not quite Christian, because the don’t accept the full Divinity.

Christian began when people believe in the Divinity, not just Messiahship, of Jesus. So, for this reason, to be a Christian (as opposed to a Jew who accepts Jesus as Messiah, or a Muslim, for that matter), a person must accept the Divinity of Christ. And for this reason, I don’t think it makes sense for a person to be both a religious Jew and a Christian at the same time.

Of course, Christian could follow Jewish customs, etc. to some extent, but that’s a different thing.

but I guess that is the way it was in the very early days of what we now call Christianity. they didn’t call themselves Christians early on.
I am not sure how many years they were a Jewish sect. it could have been less than 20 years.

 

[ltwin]

But simply believing Christ is the Messiah (excuse the tautology) does not make a person a Christian. The Ebionites and Nazoreans (early Chritian/Jewish groups) were not actually Christians (but Jews who accepted the ethical teachings of Jesus), since the didn’t believe in the Divinity of Christ.

Remember, Muslims call Jesus the Messiah (it’s in the Koran) and believe in the Virgin birth, miracles, moral teachings of Jesus. But there not quite Christian, because the don’t accept the full Divinity.

Christian began when people believe in the Divinity, not just Messiahship, of Jesus. So, for this reason, to be a Christian (as opposed to a Jew who accepts Jesus as Messiah, or a Muslim, for that matter), a person must accept the Divinity of Christ. And for this reason, I don’t think it makes sense for a person to be both a religious Jew and a Christian at the same time.

Of course, Christian could follow Jewish customs, etc. to some extent, but that’s a different thing.

Peter and Paul were certainly Jews and Christians at the same time. They never stopped being Jewish. It was certainly possible to be both a Jew and a Christian who believed in Jesus’ divinity. All the earliest disciples were Jews, so I’m not really sure what you’re suggesting–that the first Christians denied that Jesus was divine? How does that work when Paul clearly is convinced that he is the son of God and divine.

Obviously, over time, the lines between Judaism and Christianity hardened and Jewish Christians were excluded from the synagogues. Yet, for a time, Christianity was very much considered a Jewish sect–a very weird and offbeat Jewish sect.

I don’t think it makes sense for a person to be both a religious Jew and a Christian at the same time.

But that’s because you live 2 thousand years after the “parting of the ways” between Christianity and Judaism. A lot has happened, and its “obvious” to us living today that the two religions are in fact two different religions. But it wasn’t “obvious” to those living 2 thousand years ago, when Jesus was only recently crucified and his Jewish followers were only just beginning to reach out to Gentiles.

 

[Qoeleth]

Peter and Paul were certainly Jews and Christians at the same time. They never stopped being Jewish. It was certainly possible to be both a Jew and a Christian who believed in Jesus’ divinity. All the earliest disciples were Jews, so I’m not really sure what you’re suggesting–that the first Christians denied that Jesus was divine? How does that work when Paul clearly is convinced that he is the son of God and divine.

Obviously, over time, the lines between Judaism and Christianity hardened and Jewish Christians were excluded from the synagogues. Yet, for a time, Christianity was very much considered a Jewish sect–a very weird and offbeat Jewish sect.

But that’s because you live 2 thousand years after the “parting of the ways” between Christianity and Judaism. A lot has happened, and its “obvious” to us living today that the two religions are in fact two different religions. But it wasn’t “obvious” to those living 2 thousand years ago, when Jesus was only recently crucified and his Jewish followers were only just beginning to reach out to Gentiles.

Sure- I agree that if you asked St. Paul and St. Peter, “Are you Jewish?” and “Are you Christian?”, they would have answered “Yes” to both. But Paul- perhaps he would have also added “And a Roman!”, in that he was (before becoming a Christian), both a Pharisee, an**d a Greco-Roman monotheist (i.e. his ethical teachings, notions of the soul and the flesh, seem very close to Seneca). And, he wrote in Greek, after all…

But still- I am not comfortable with saying Christianity originally was simply “a sect of Judaism”, because I believe it was a totally new religion- although it draw background from older religions (including Jewish monotheism and Greco-Roman philosophical monotheism).

Certainly, when I read Augustine, there seems to be closer affinity to Plotinus than to anything like traditional Judaism.

I think many modern authors emphasise the Jewish influence, at the expense of the Greek and Roman one (which has become unfashionable).

 

[ltwin]

But Paul- perhaps he would have also added “And a Roman!”, in that he was (before becoming a Christian), both a Pharisee, an**d a Greco-Roman monotheist (i.e. his ethical teachings, notions of the soul and the flesh, seem very close to Seneca).

Paul had Roman citizenship, but he would not have described himself as “Roman” since he was ethnically Jewish. He also would not have described himself as religiously “Roman” since that would have meant he was a pagan.

The ancient world did not set religion and ethnicity apart. To be Roman meant you worshiped the pagan gods. To be Jewish meant you worshiped only one God, the Jewish deity. If you converted to Judaism, you had to completely renounce your former culture and live according to the Jewish law.

Christianity was unique in that it asked Gentiles to worship the Jewish god without renouncing their former culture and nationality. Therefore, you could be a Jewish Christian, but you could also be a Roman Christian or a Greek Christian.This was confusing for many people in the ancient world, which is why early Christians were called “atheists” and “haters of mankind” and also why they were seen as seditious and subversive. Christians put the empire in danger by not worshiping the pagan pantheon.

Jews were not seen as subversive because they were following their ancient and ethnic religion–they were weird but their weird religious beliefs were a reflection of their nationality, which made sense to ancient people. Christians didn’t make sense. They were really the first to detach religious belief from any inherent ethnicity.

And, he wrote in Greek, after all…

Of course he wrote in Greek. He was an Hellenic Jew. He grew up in Tarsus, which was culturally Greek by the time Paul would have been born. He also knew Hebrew, as well, but he wrote in Greek because that was the lingua franca of his day.

But still- I am not comfortable with saying Christianity originally was simply “a sect of Judaism”, because I believe it was a totally new religion- although it draw background from older religions (including Jewish monotheism and Greco-Roman philosophical monotheism).

It was a slow, gradual thing. Christianity starts out as a new movement within Judaism. Overtime, more and more Gentiles enter the church, which dilutes the “Jewishness” of early Christianity. At the same time, more and more Jews come to see Jewish Christians as heretics and eventually not Jewish at all. As the church grows and Jews become a smaller percentage of the Christian community, its natural for Jews and Christians to see themselves as two separate religions.

Certainly, when I read Augustine, there seems to be closer affinity to Plotinus than to anything like traditional Judaism.

St. Augustine lived 354-430 AD. He lived in modern day Algeria, and his family were Romanized Berbers.Christianity was already considered a different religion by the time he lived. You’re looking too far into the future. As the source I cited earlier stated, the process of separation was already complete by the time of the Bar Kokhba period, which began in 132 AD.

 

[Qoeleth]

Paul had Roman citizenship, but he would not have described himself as “Roman” since he was ethnically Jewish. He also would not have described himself as religiously “Roman” since that would have meant he was a pagan.

The ancient world did not set religion and ethnicity apart. To be Roman meant you worshiped the pagan gods. To be Jewish meant you worshiped only one God, the Jewish deity. If you converted to Judaism, you had to completely renounce your former culture and live according to the Jewish law.

.

But most of the more philosophical Romans and Greeks already believed in “One God.”
Check out this from Seneca:
“It is not necessary to raise your hands to heaven, nor to pray at temples, that
we should be heard by the ears of idols, as if we would be able to be heard.
God is near to you, God is with you, God is within you. The Holy Spirit resides
within us, as the observer and guardian of our good and evil thoughts.”

Almost exactly like Paul. And these sayings, attributed to Pythagoras (although early CE):
“God is a light incapable of receiving its contrary, darkness.
You have in yourself something similar to God, and therefore use yourself as the
temple of God, on account of that which in you resembles God.
When, after having divested yourself of your mortal body, you arrive at the most
pure Heaven, thou shalt be a god, immortal, incorruptible, and Death shall
have no more dominion over you.”

Just like St. John…

Most of the beliefs of early Christianity (the immortality of the soul, the transcendence of God, mind/body dualism, etc.) are best traced to Greco-Roman philosophical monotheism, although a certain amount of ‘Jewish’ terminology is also employed. Early Christian ethics closely resemble those of the Platonists (spiritually) and the Stoics (on a practical level). So, although Jesus had a knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures (as a Galilean), I am sure He recognised the truths of philosophical monotheism. And this is why the Roman world could accept Christianity so easily- and why it became what it is today. .

One could say that Christianity was originally ‘a Greco-Roman mystery religion’. Or a ‘new spiritual movement within the Roman Empire, originating from a philosopher in Roman Palestine.’

 

[ltwin]

But most of the more philosophical Romans and Greeks already believed in “One God.”
Check out this from Seneca:
“It is not necessary to raise your hands to heaven, nor to pray at temples, that
we should be heard by the ears of idols, as if we would be able to be heard.
God is near to you, God is with you, God is within you. The Holy Spirit resides
within us, as the observer and guardian of our good and evil thoughts.”

Almost exactly like Paul. And these sayings, attributed to Pythagoras (although early CE):
“God is a light incapable of receiving its contrary, darkness.
You have in yourself something similar to God, and therefore use yourself as the
temple of God, on account of that which in you resembles God.
When, after having divested yourself of your mortal body, you arrive at the most
pure Heaven, thou shalt be a god, immortal, incorruptible, and Death shall
have no more dominion over you.”

Just like St. John…

Most of the beliefs of early Christianity (the immortality of the soul, the transcendence of God, mind/body dualism, etc.) are best traced to Greco-Roman philosophical monotheism, although a certain amount of ‘Jewish’ terminology is also employed. Early Christian ethics closely resemble those of the Platonists (spiritually) and the Stoics (on a practical level). So, although Jesus had a knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures (as a Galilean), I am sure He recognised the truths of philosophical monotheism. And this is why the Roman world could accept Christianity so easily- and why it became what it is today. .

One could say that Christianity was originally ‘a Greco-Roman mystery religion’. Or a ‘new spiritual movement within the Roman Empire, originating from a philosopher in Roman Palestine.’

You seem to be putting a lot of effort into avoiding acknowledging what should be obvious to anyone who has read the Bible: that Jesus was Jewish and that the first Christians were all Jewish and that what we know of today as Christianity emerged out of 2nd Temple Judaism. And what’s with the scare quotes around the word Jewish? I’ve noticed this several times in our discussion.

To say that Jesus owed more to Greek philosophers than the Jewish religion in which he was born would be regarded as a stretch by most scholars, I would think.

 

[ltwin]

In addition, there are limits to the similarities we can make between the philosophical monotheism in the Greco-Roman world and Christianity as historian and New Testament scholar Larry Hurtado points out in his book Destroyer of the Gods: Early Christian Distinctiveness in the Roman World, chapter 2, kindle edition:

In the philosophical traditions, an ultimate and radically transcendent deity was often postulated, but you did not typically engage that transcendent deity directly. For example, you did not usually sacrifice to this deity or implore it directly. Instead, the same philosophers who posited the lofty views of a transcendent deity were content for the worship of the traditional, lesser deities to continue and, indeed, typically took part in this themselves. 61 But the early Christian stance was that the one, true, and radically transcendent God was, nevertheless, also available to a direct relationship with people. Christians believed that you could pray directly to this God and hope to be heard. You could worship this God directly and know that it was welcome. Indeed, prayer and worship directly to this one God was typically urged as the only proper and legitimate worship in Christian circles. In contrast to the practice and views of the pagan world, including specifically philosophical traditions, Christians were to treat the many other deities of the time as unworthy beings, and the worship of them as idolatry.

 

[meltzerboy]

Sure- I agree that if you asked St. Paul and St. Peter, “Are you Jewish?” and “Are you Christian?”, they would have answered “Yes” to both. But Paul- perhaps he would have also added “And a Roman!”, in that he was (before becoming a Christian), both a Pharisee, an**d a Greco-Roman monotheist (i.e. his ethical teachings, notions of the soul and the flesh, seem very close to Seneca). And, he wrote in Greek, after all…

But still- I am not comfortable with saying Christianity originally was simply “a sect of Judaism”, because I believe it was a totally new religion- although it draw background from older religions (including Jewish monotheism and Greco-Roman philosophical monotheism).

Certainly, when I read Augustine, there seems to be closer affinity to Plotinus than to anything like traditional Judaism.

I think many modern authors emphasise the Jewish influence, at the expense of the Greek and Roman one (which has become unfashionable).

There was also a Greco-Roman influence on Judaism. You see, religions develop and evolve, rather than being born fully grown, just as a person develops and evolves. Indeed, our religions are still in the process of evolving despite their orthodox teachings. There were at first many Jewish sects, about 20 to 30 according to modern historical research. We know only a handful in any detail: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and the like; however, there were many others. Judaism was trying to find its own identity, and so was Christianity at the beginning.

 

[7_Sorrows]

There was also a Greco-Roman influence on Judaism. You see, religions develop and evolve, rather than being born fully grown, just as a person develops and evolves. Indeed, our religions are still in the process of evolving despite their orthodox teachings. There were at first many Jewish sects, about 20 to 30 according to modern historical research. We know only a handful in any detail: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and the like; however, there were many others. Judaism was trying to find its own identity, and so was Christianity at the beginning.

Very true.