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Robert_Sock
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You may, if you wish, but know that there is a paradox no matter if choosing to say His glorified was physical or spiritual.
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Gorgias
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Some Jews believe this, but again I ask: is this a doctrinal belief of Judaism? (My understanding is that it is not – and therefore, Maimonides’ writings are thus an exposition of what some Jews believe. In other words, this is simply – at most – a faction’s belief.) Good on him that he believes in the resurrection; but he doesn’t speak for Christian doctrinal belief… which has always held that Jesus’ (and our!) glorified bodies will be physical and perfected, and not merely spiritual.
(The fact that we believe that our glorified physical bodies will be perfect is the answer to your question, BTW: Jesus can pass through locked doors not because He is only spiritual, but because His glorified body does not have the physical limitations that our do.)
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GEddie
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The paradoxes exist only in your mind.
Resurrectional bodies have command over their substance and movement through time so as to make such seeming paradoxes beside the point.
ICXC NIKA
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Robert_Sock
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What are these physical limitations that you believe will be lifted?Some Jews believe this, but again I ask: is this a doctrinal belief of Judaism? (My understanding is that it is not – and therefore, Maimonides’ writings are thus an exposition of what some Jews believe. In other words, this is simply – at most – a faction’s belief.) Good on him that he believes in the resurrection; but he doesn’t speak for Christian doctrinal belief… which has always held that Jesus’ (and our!) glorified bodies will be physical and perfected, and not merely spiritual.
(The fact that we believe that our glorified physical bodies will be perfect is the answer to your question, BTW: Jesus can pass through locked doors not because He is only spiritual, but because His glorified body does not have the physical limitations that our do.)
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CHRISTINE77
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But somehow you think the physical parts of Jesus limits him. Why do you think his body was either spiritual or physical? Most people here do not see why you limit him in this fashion. Jesus is limitless. He is God. Why do you seek to totally humanize him?
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Linusthe2nd
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Posts 19 and 24, Christ’s Glorified body was a real physical body but it was and is totally subject to his soul and it this way we say that it was " spiritualized, " not because it was a spirit but because it was a body totally subject to his soul, which is indeed spiritual. And this is the same body we receive in communion, a real but spiritualized body. No one is trying to limit the Person of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is limitless in his Divine Nature and in his human nature through the power of the Divine Second Person, but not by nature.
Linus2nd
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Bookcat
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CA show on the subject
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
Yes, scripture shows that Jesus rose with the same body he had when he died, except that now it was Glorified. So yes, Christ’s glorified body was a body and not a spirit.
Linus2nd
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Please explain how a physical body could walk through a locked door?
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
As Bryllos said in post #12, quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church, " 645 By means of touch and the sharing of a meal, the risen Jesus establishes direct contact with his disciples. He invites them in this way to recognize that he is not a ghost and above all to verify that the risen body in which he appears to them is the same body that had been tortured and crucified, for it still bears the traces of his passion. Yet at the same time this authentic, real body possesses the new properties of a glorious body: not limited by space and time but able to be present how and when he wills; for Christ’s humanity can no longer be confined to earth and belongs henceforth only to the Father’s divine realm. For this reason too the risen Jesus enjoys the sovereign freedom of appearing as he wishes: in the guise of a gardener or in other forms familiar to his disciples, precisely to awaken their faith. "
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Linusthe2nd
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Or again, from my post # 19, Christ’s resurrected and Glorified body was just as ours will be. It is truly physical but it had the same special qualities of all the just who will rise from the dead. The Roman Catechism describes the glorified bodies of the just as follows:
" THE QUALITIES OF A GLORIFIED BODY
IMPASSIBILITY
The first endowment or gift is impassibility, which shall place them beyond the reach of suffering anything disagreeable or of being affected by pain or inconvenience of any sort. Neither the piercing severity of cold, nor the glowing intensity of heat, nor the impetuosity of waters can hurt them. It is sown, says the Apostle, in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption.41 This quality the Schoolmen call impassibility, not incorruption, in order to distinguish it as a property peculiar to a glorified body. The bodies of the damned, though incorruptible, will not be impassible; they will be capable of experiencing heat and cold and of suffering various afflictions.
BRIGHTNESS ( or Clarity )
The next quality is brightness, by which the bodies of the Saints shall shine like the sun, according to the words of our Lord recorded in the Gospel of St. Matthew: The just shall shine as the sun, in the kingdom of their Father.42 To remove the possibility of doubt on the subject, He exemplifies this in His Transfiguration.43 This quality the Apostle sometimes calls glory, sometimes brightness: He will reform the body of our lowness, made like to the body of his glory;44 and again, It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory.45 Of this glory the Israelites beheld some image in the desert, when the face of Moses, after he had enjoyed the presence and conversation of God, shone with such lustre that they could not look on it.46
This brightness is a sort of radiance reflected on the body from the supreme happiness of the soul. It is a participation in that bliss which the soul enjoys, just as the soul itself is rendered happy by a participation in the happiness of God.
Unlike the gift of impassibility, this quality is not common to all in the same degree. All the bodies of the Saints will be equally impassible; but the brightness of all will not be the same, for, according to the Apostle, One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, and another the glory of the stars, for star differeth from star In glory: so also is the resurrection of the dead.47
AGILITY
To the preceding quality is united that which is called agility, by which the body will be freed from the heaviness that now presses it down, and will take on a capability of moving with the utmost ease and swiftness, wherever the soul pleases, as St. Augustine teaches in his book On the City of God,48 and St. Jerome On Isaias.49 Hence these words of the Apostle: It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power.50
SUBTILITY
Another quality is that of subtility, which subjects the body to the dominion of the soul, so that the body shall be subject to the soul and ever ready to follow her desires. This quality we learn from these words of the Apostle: It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body.51
These are the principal points which should be dwelt on in the exposition of this Article.*
Advantages of Deep Meditation on this Article
But in order that the faithful may appreciate the fruit they derive from a knowledge of so many and such exalted mysteries, it is necessary, first of all, to point out that to God, who has hidden these things from the wise and made them known to little ones, we owe a debt of boundless gratitude. How many men, eminent for wisdom or endowed with singular learning, who ever remained blind to this most certain truth! The fact, then, that He has made known to us these truths, although we could never have aspired to such knowledge, obliges us to pour forth our gratitude in unceasing praises of His supreme goodness and clemency.
Another important advantage to be derived from reflection on this Article is that in it we shall find consolation both for ourselves and others when we mourn the death of those who were endeared to us by relationship or friendship. Such was the consolation which the Apostle himself gave the Thessalonians when writing to them concerning those who are asleep.52
Again, in all our afflictions and calamities the thought of a future resurrection must bring the greatest relief to the troubled heart, as we learn from the example of holy Job, who supported his afflicted and sorrowing soul by this one hope that the day would come when, in the resurrection, he would behold the Lord his God.53
The same thought must also prove a powerful incentive to the faithful to use every exertion to lead lives of rectitude and integrity, unsullied by the defilement of sin. For if they reflect that those boundless riches which will follow after the resurrection are now offered to them as rewards, they will be easily attracted to the pursuit of virtue and piety.
On the other hand, nothing will have greater effect in subduing the passions and withdrawing souls from sin, than frequently to remind the sinner of the miseries and torments with which the reprobate will be visited, who on the last day will come forth unto the resurrection of judgment.54 "
Article Eleven catecheticsonline.com/Trent.php
You can also read the following reflection:
parishableitems.wordpress.co…l-be-like-his/
Fr. Feltes is a regular blogger and well worth following.
How does God do it? Maybe he will tell us when we get to heaven.
Linus2nd
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JimG
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I don’t know. But, a locked door, at the molecular level, is mostly empty space. A human body, at the same level, is mostly empty space.
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Linusthe2nd
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JimG
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I think that there must be empty space, otherwise nothing could move, including human beings. Now it is true that the atomic models now are somewhat different from the early models. Still the nucleus is densely packed, with little empty space, but the largest volume of an atom consists of the electron cloud, which is not dense at all.
Quantum mechanics puts some uncertainty into the model. An electron which used to be thought of as at a certain point in its ‘orbit’ is now thought of as 98% here, and perhaps 2% there, but it still doesn’t invalidate the notion of empty space. (One could resurrect the notion of an all pervasive ether, but that causes more problems than it solves.)
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GEddie
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Truly empty space is not needed for motion, just sufficient energy to push aside the atoms or molecules in the path of intended motion.
There isn’t empty space between water molecules, yet we can easily push our bodies (which aren’t much denser) through water.
We can’t push through steel or stone because the energy required to push past the atoms involved is several magnitudes more than our bodies can command (or contain).
But an everlasting-life body has command of its energy, as well as its material.
ICXC NIKA.
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JimG
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So when we push aside or displace other molecules, aren’t we pushing them into some other space? If all matter was as densely packed as an atomic nucleus I might agree that there was little empty space. But most matter is not densely packed. Interplanetary vehicles coasting through space meet no resistance from matter occupying the space it is passing through.
I agree that a glorified body would have no trouble passing through otherwise ‘solid’ matter because the person has complete control over all his parts, even to the atomic level. That might not require excess force, just making judicious use of the already existing empty space between molecules.
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Linusthe2nd
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I don’t think we need concern ourselves with earthly laws of nature where the actions of a glorified body are concerned. A glorified body just bypasses material laws.
Linus2nd
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Usagi
Guest
Robert,
Your own OP points out that there are two seemingly contradictory data points to reconcile, yet you seem already to have reached your conclusion by focusing on one of those (that the resurrected body can pass through solid matter or teleport or something like that) to the exclusion of the other (that the resurrected body can eat and be touched).
As others have pointed out, the phrase “spiritual body” is entirely Biblical, but it still seems to mean something distinct from “soul” or “spirit.” The resurrected body may not be made of earthly matter as we understand it, but it doesn’t seem to be made of pure spirit (by the Catholic definition) either, since spirit can neither be seen nor touched.
According to Catholic teaching, between my death and the general resurrection, I will exist as a disembodied soul. After the general resurrection, I will exist as a composite of soul and glorified body – a different and superior state from being a bodiless spirit. It will also be a different and superior state than being a composite of soul and mortal body, so using the word “physical” as we understand in now may not be sufficient, but we csn’t go to the other extreme of eliminating the “body” aspect entirely, either.
Usagi
Your own OP points out that there are two seemingly contradictory data points to reconcile, yet you seem already to have reached your conclusion by focusing on one of those (that the resurrected body can pass through solid matter or teleport or something like that) to the exclusion of the other (that the resurrected body can eat and be touched).
As others have pointed out, the phrase “spiritual body” is entirely Biblical, but it still seems to mean something distinct from “soul” or “spirit.” The resurrected body may not be made of earthly matter as we understand it, but it doesn’t seem to be made of pure spirit (by the Catholic definition) either, since spirit can neither be seen nor touched.
According to Catholic teaching, between my death and the general resurrection, I will exist as a disembodied soul. After the general resurrection, I will exist as a composite of soul and glorified body – a different and superior state from being a bodiless spirit. It will also be a different and superior state than being a composite of soul and mortal body, so using the word “physical” as we understand in now may not be sufficient, but we csn’t go to the other extreme of eliminating the “body” aspect entirely, either.
Usagi
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Aloysium
Guest
:twocents:
Since it is a resurrected body, not a new body, it will be this body as it should be, not with its imperfections.
We here, are to a greater or less extent disconnected from the Ground of our being, who brings us into and maintains our existence.
As each moment, the link between we in time and Eternity, is fresh in itself,
in final loving union with the Godhead, we emerge perpetually new in our totality.
The problem lies in the broken relationship between ourselves and God - it is spiritual in nature.
Although made of the same matter as the rest of the universe, the body will suffer no corruption, since the unity who we are, will exist in communion with its Source, eternally pristine, vibrant and alive.
Not sure if this is clear - something like that.
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