Was Christ's Preaching under the "Old Covenant"?

[Strategery]

That’s what Catholics always say, however, it’s my experience that the concept of law and works are always embedded within the Catholic framework.

Interesting.

What is this experience you speak of?

 

[Strategery]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRKH
What did Jesus teach about Works?

Those who abide in Him will have works because they are saved to do works prepared beforehand for them to walk in.

I think we need to hone in on this teaching a bit. Where does Christ teach this?

It leads to another two questions

– What does it mean to abide/remain in Christ?

– What does it mean to believe?

 

[JRKH]

Good old Howie. I Love how you extract from my posts those things you wish to comment on while leaving out some of the context. Kind of like how some people choose to read Scripture, a verse here…a verse there…

You’re right, but it wasn’t a misinterpretation, but a presumption, a “jumping to the wrong conclusion.”

OK - cool

Believers are to love their enemies, and their neighbors

But no one is saved because they love. So there must be a reason for Paul saying that Love is greater than faith and hope. As you agreed above, no one is saved without faith, but many who don’t love, are saved by faith TO love.

Faith TO Love??? you might have to explain that one to me.
So your saying that no one is saved because they Love the Lord their God with their Whole Heart, Their Whole mind and their Whole soul?

While “Faith” or “belief” or “trust”, are prerequisites - after all if one doesn’t believe in God they can hardly Love God, Love appears to be the most important attribute as given by both Christ AND Paul.
Since this is the case, we cannot seperate faith, which is necessary just to get started on the journey, and Love which both Jesus and Paul both taught as the Prime attribute ON the journey. Therefore faith alone is just as dead as Love alone is. So much for “Sola Fide”.

The believing ones will be saved.

Those who abide in Him will have works because they are saved to do works prepared beforehand for them to walk in.

Both of these responses ignore the context of my posts.

I trust God to preserve his word.

It’s not a question of authority for me. The church has always been in possession of the scriptures, given to them by the writers through the Spirit.

By the church’s recognition that the writings were authentic as to their authorship and use.

The Christian Church.

You are right again my friend. They were members of the “Christian Church”. The One and Universal Christian Church. (the Greek for “Universal” is “Catholic” by the way). The Church that had been handed down from the Apostles through the Bishops and has been in possessioin of the scriptures as well as the Sacred Traditions from the beginning and right to this day.

By the way, are you aware that that great founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther acknowledged that without the Catholic Church no onw would have the Bible? Even the leaders of the Reformation knew this.

Peace
James

 

[Howie01]

JRKH:

Good old Howie. I Love how you extract from my posts those things you wish to comment on while leaving out some of the context. Kind of like how some people choose to read Scripture, a verse here…a verse there…

Of course, only non-Catholics do that, and I’m the worst offender.

JRKH:

Faith TO Love??? you might have to explain that one to me.
So your saying that no one is saved because they Love the Lord their God with their Whole Heart, Their Whole mind and their Whole soul?

Scripture says God makes ALIVE those are DEAD in sin and trespasses.

Dead persons don’t love anyone, not even God.

JRKH:

While “Faith” or “belief” or “trust”, are prerequisites - after all if one doesn’t believe in God they can hardly Love God, Love appears to be the most important attribute as given by both Christ AND Paul.

Since this is the case, we cannot seperate faith, which is necessary just to get started on the journey, and Love which both Jesus and Paul both taught as the Prime attribute ON the journey. Therefore faith alone is just as dead as Love alone is. So much for “Sola Fide”.

But without faith, one is DEAD in trespasses and sin. So a love that is more important than faith, can only be God’s love for the DEAD sinner He makes ALIVE.

I believe there’s an explanation for why Paul says that love is greater than faith and hope, but as far as importance, without faith one is DEAD, and the DEAD cannot love.

JRKH:

Both of these responses ignore the context of my posts.

They’re also answers to the questions you posed.

JRKH:

By the way, are you aware that that great founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther acknowledged that without the Catholic Church no onw would have the Bible? Even the leaders of the Reformation knew this.

I think I said what Luther said, but I give God the glory.

 

[savedsinner]

** Galatians 1:11-12**For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.

For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

The Greek words Paul uses, translated as “received” and “handed on”, are technical terms the rabbis of his day used to describe the keeping and teaching of sacred traditions. Paul uses these same word to describe his doctrine on Christs death and resurrection in 1 Cor 15:1-3
“Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast–unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures,”

Though Paul was not present at the Last Supper, he states that he received his teaching from the churches founded by the apostles; they, in turn , received this teaching directly form the lord:“For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you”. 1 Cor 11:23

 

[JRKH]

Of course, only non-Catholics do that, and I’m the worst offender.

Scripture says God makes ALIVE those are DEAD in sin and trespasses.

Dead persons don’t love anyone, not even God.

But without faith, one is DEAD in trespasses and sin. So a love that is more important than faith, can only be God’s love for the DEAD sinner He makes ALIVE.

I believe there’s an explanation for why Paul says that love is greater than faith and hope, but as far as importance, without faith one is DEAD, and the DEAD cannot love.

They’re also answers to the questions you posed.

I think I said what Luther said, but I give God the glory.

Leaving all of the details aside, I was thinking about this whole issue this afternoon and came up with something similar to what you are saying re: God’s Love.
The Whole matter does start with Love - the Love of God for His creation. Otherwise H would have just done away with us and started over.
So our “faith” has to begin as a response to God’s “Love”. Once we accept God’s Love, (in faith) we must begin to Love Him in return. Therefore, once again, we cannot seperate Fatih from Love. Hence - No Sola Fide. No “Faith Alone” - Faith first on our part yes, but NOT Faith Alone.
By the way are you aware of the Church’s teaching on the primacy of faith and our total dependance on God? (in other words no “Merit” or “works” theology)

Peace
James

 

[Howie01]

savedsinner:

Though Paul was not present at the Last Supper, he states that he received his teaching from the churches founded by the apostles; they, in turn , received this teaching directly form the lord:“For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you”. 1 Cor 11:23

Where does Paul say what I’ve put in “blue” above?

 

[Howie01]

JRKH:

Leaving all of the details aside, I was thinking about this whole issue this afternoon and came up with something similar to what you are saying re: God’s Love.

The Whole matter does start with Love - the Love of God for His creation. Otherwise H would have just done away with us and started over.

So our “faith” has to begin as a response to God’s “Love”. Once we accept God’s Love, (in faith) we must begin to Love Him in return. Therefore, once again, we cannot seperate Fatih from Love.

Hence - No Sola Fide. No “Faith Alone” - Faith first on our part yes, but NOT Faith Alone.

But here’s where we differ. After initial justification, you are on a treadmill and run the risk of losing justification and having to regain it. Losing it, regaining it; losing it, regaining it.

I believe justification occurs only once, and it can never be forfeited. Therefore, an irrevocable justification by grace alone through faith alone.

JRKH:

By the way are you aware of the Church’s teaching on the primacy of faith and our total dependance on God? (in other words no “Merit” or “works” theology).

No. However, I’ve read the sixth session of Trent, and the CCC, and find “merit” to be at work, albeit with “acknowledgement” of grace, and with distinct types of “merit,” along with their definitions.

 

[Strategery]

Where does Paul say what I’ve put in “blue” above?

Speaking of this, where does Christ say this?

Those who abide in Him will have works because they are saved to do works prepared beforehand for them to walk in.

 

[savedsinner]

Where does Paul say what I’ve put in “blue” above?

Reading scripture in a language that it was not written in, and also not understanding the times in which it was written, can lead some interpretations astray. I explained how this understanding was come to in my post.
I would recommend a book by Scott Hahn “Letter and Spirit”

 

[JRKH]

But here’s where we differ. After initial justification, you are on a treadmill and run the risk of losing justification and having to regain it. Losing it, regaining it; losing it, regaining it.

I believe justification occurs only once, and it can never be forfeited. Therefore, an irrevocable justification by grace alone through faith alone.

It appears that you ascribe to OSAS but let us not change the subject again (after all the OP was about the teachings of Jesus “before the cross” as opposed to “After the cross.”

It should be clear appear clear that such a belief as you state above must be consistant in both Jesus AND Paul’s teaching. It clearly is not. While I don’t have the time to go through and look up specific passages, I suggest you take a look at the Gospels where Jesus talks about - for instance the parable of the seeds, or the shepard who looses one and leaves the 99 to look for it. Jesus says, “IF he finds it…” and not “when”. This appears to indicate a lost sheep may well stay lost.

Just because it is fresh in my mind, I read a passage just in Matthew 19: 27-28 where Jesus assures the Apostles that they will sit on 12 thrones to judge the 12 tribes. What struck me about that passage is that when He said this Judas would have been one of those twelve. So it appears that, at that time, Judas was “Saved” or “Justified” or whatever. Of course we know Judas did not say that way.
Later in Matthew 24: 12-13 Jesus speaks of those whose, “Love will grow cold”. That is those who will lose their faith. I think it interesting that He uses the term Love here instead of faith - Don’t you?
Just some things for consideration.

No. However, I’ve read the sixth session of Trent, and the CCC, and find “merit” to be at work, albeit with “acknowledgement” of grace, and with distinct types of “merit,” along with their definitions.

I think that you touch on something very significant here. If you want to know what the Church teaches, written in the language of today, I suggest you look at the ** Catachism of the Catholic Church**. The great thing about the site I linked to is that it is searchable. Just put in the word “faith” for example and you’ll get a list of every place it appears in the catachism.

Peace
James

 

[Howie01]

JRKH:

It should be clear appear clear that such a belief as you state above must be consistant in both Jesus AND Paul’s teaching. It clearly is not.

It is; they preach the same Gospel; there’s only one.

JRKH:

While I don’t have the time to go through and look up specific passages, I suggest you take a look at the Gospels where Jesus talks about - for instance the parable of the seeds, or the shepard who looses one and leaves the 99 to look for it. Jesus says, “IF he finds it…” and not “when”. This appears to indicate a lost sheep may well stay lost.

**Luke 15:5 (NASB95)

“When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.**I have 30+ bible versions on my PC. All of them say “when.”

JRKH:

Just because it is fresh in my mind, I read a passage just in Matthew 19: 27-28 where Jesus assures the Apostles that they will sit on 12 thrones to judge the 12 tribes. What struck me about that passage is that when He said this Judas would have been one of those twelve. So it appears that, at that time, Judas was “Saved” or “Justified” or whatever. Of course we know Judas did not say that way.

**Matthew 19:28

And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me…**Jesus says, you who have followed me.… Judas was never saved; Judas was not chosen to be saved; that’s not hard to demonstrate.

JRKH:

Later in Matthew 24: 12-13 Jesus speaks of those whose, “Love will grow cold”. That is those who will lose their faith. I think it interesting that He uses the term Love here instead of faith - Don’t you?

Jesus doesn’t say anything about losing faith, but of love growing cold, and it will, because things will get very bad.

As far as mentioning the loss of love, that’s an indicator of how bad things will get—every man for himself.

 

[Howie01]

Speaking of this, where does Christ say this?

Jn 15:5; Eph 2:10.

 

[JRKH]

It is; they preach the same Gospel; there’s only one.

Agreed - there is only one Gospel.

Luke 15:5 (NASB95)

“When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.I have 30+ bible versions on my PC. All of them say “when.”

Interesting
I went and looked up the passage and there seems to be a small discrepancy between Matthew and Luke for Matthew renders it thus
Matthew 18:13 -
"If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray.

I checked it out at Studylight The four translations all say “IF” including Young’s and Green’s Literal tranlations.
Interestingly when I checked the Luke quote Young and Green do not include the word “When”, but rather use the term “having found…” which I will grant lends itself to a rendering of “When”. Interesting difference between the two evangelists don’t you think? I wonder why the Holy Spirit inspired the difference?

Matthew 19:28

And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me…Jesus says, you who have followed me.… Judas was never saved; Judas was not chosen to be saved; that’s not hard to demonstrate.

Jesus doesn’t say anything about losing faith, but of love growing cold, and it will, because things will get very bad.

As far as mentioning the loss of love, that’s an indicator of how bad things will get—every man for himself.

Friankly in both of these I think you are reading into them that which is not there intead of letting them speak to you on their own. Of course you may make the same observation to me so…

I wish we could, like good and obedient Christians, follow Jesus Command and, “Tell it to The Church”. Unfortunately that does not seem to be a possiblity at this time.

In any event I hope you took a look at the Catachism link I provided. I believe you will find it most useful in understanding what are and are not real differences between us.

Peace
James

 

[Strategery]

Jn 15:5; Eph 2:10.

I asked where Christ said it – meaning when he is recorded as saying it, which is your claim. That eliminates Ephesians from this sidebar. And yes, I fully believe that Ephesians is inspired word. We, however, are discussing what Christ physically taught.

So that leaves us with John 15:5, from the vine and the branches. Remaining in Christ, of course, is an act of will. It is something you have to do – an act of faith. Christ never separated faith from acts of faith (what you are referrring to as work). In the gospels it is clear that you can’t have one without the other. He says that in the very passage you cite.

Throughout the gospels Christ is very clear that belief is not a mere acknowledgement of existence, or even a conceptual/philosophical understanding of theology. Time after time, he consistently says that by our fruits we shall be known. In John 3:38, in which Christ himself identifies disobedience as the opposite of belief. In the parable of the sower, what is the lesson of the seeds sown among the rocks, and the thorns? In the parable of the good Samaritan, who had faith - the Levite priest, or the Samaritan? When Christ comes down from the mount of transfiguration, what is required to drive out the demon from the possessed man?

 

[Howie01]

I asked where Christ said it – meaning when he is recorded as saying it, which is your claim. That eliminates Ephesians from this sidebar.

No it doesn’t. Scripture is inspired by the Spirit.

Strategery:

And yes, I fully believe that Ephesians is inspired word. We, however, are discussing what Christ physically taught.

If you believe that, you should have no complaint.

Strategery:

So that leaves us with John 15:5, from the vine and the branches. Remaining in Christ, of course, is an act of will. It is something you have to do – an act of faith. Christ never separated faith from acts of faith (what you are referrring to as work). In the gospels it is clear that you can’t have one without the other. He says that in the very passage you cite.

Where do you get from what I’ve said that I separate faith from works? You can’t be getting it from me, because I don’t believe that. You can’t be getting it from other Reformed believers, because they don’t believe that either. I think you get it from your apologists, who’ve constructed a straw man, and rather than doing the work to see if what they’re telling you is true, you just buy into it.

The distinction I make between faith and works is works don’t justify.

Strategery:

Throughout the gospels Christ is very clear that belief is not a mere acknowledgement of existence, or even a conceptual/philosophical understanding of theology. Time after time, he consistently says that by our fruits we shall be known. In the parable of the sower, what is the lesson of the seeds sown among the rocks, and the thorns? In the parable of the good Samaritan, who had faith - the Levite priest, or the Samaritan? When Christ comes down from the mount of transfiguration, what is required to drive out the demon from the possessed man?

Again, you argue against a position I don’t hold.

Strategery:

In John 3:38, in which Christ himself identifies disobedience as the opposite of belief.

There is no Jn 3:38 that I’m aware of. I’m figuring you mean 3:36.

Here’s the Greek word in question: apeitheō. It’s closely related to pisteuō, which means “to believe.” The “a” in apeitheō, is the alpha privative, which negates the action of the word.

Here’s the same word:**Acts 14:2

But the Jews who disbelieved stirred up the minds of the Gentiles and embittered them against the brethren.**So the disobedience being addressed in Jn 3:36 is the refusal to believe.

It’s all about faith.

 

[Howie01]

JRKH:

Interesting

I went and looked up the passage and there seems to be a small discrepancy between Matthew and Luke for Matthew renders it thus

Matthew 18:13 -
"If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray.

I checked it out at Studylight The four translations all say “IF” including Young’s and Green’s Literal tranlations.

Interestingly when I checked the Luke quote Young and Green do not include the word “When”, but rather use the term “having found…” which I will grant lends itself to a rendering of “When”. Interesting difference between the two evangelists don’t you think?

Not if one understands from the great evidence presented in Scripture that Jesus is the good shepherd.

The good shepherd always finds the lost sheep. That’s what He came to do (Lk 19:10).

JRKH:

I wonder why the Holy Spirit inspired the difference?

He wants those who are His to study the scripture.

JRKH:

I wish we could, like good and obedient Christians, follow Jesus Command and, “Tell it to The Church”. Unfortunately that does not seem to be a possiblity at this time.

You keep saying, “tell it to the church.” What do you mean by that?

JRKH:

In any event I hope you took a look at the Catachism link I provided. I believe you will find it most useful in understanding what are and are not real differences between us.

Forgive me for not thanking you for the link. I’ve bookmarked it. I have a worn copy of the CCC, but the searchable version is nice.

 

[SHW]

The difference is, the latter is right.

How can you be sure that you are right and they are not?

How do you know for sure that a group of devious people didn’t start a huge hoax called “Christianity” 2000 years ago?

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
I wish we could, like good and obedient Christians, follow Jesus Command and, “Tell it to The Church”. Unfortunately that does not seem to be a possiblity at this time.

I simply mean that Christ gave us the blueprint for settling issues in Matthew 18
Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 **"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. **18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Now, to be clear, the preaching of a “different gospel” or other heretical things would certainly qualify as a “Sin” so disagreements such as we are have would certainly apply here. Jesus tells us to take to “To the Church” and The Church (The Pillar and Foundation of Truth) has the authority to “Bind and Loose”.
This “Church” that Jesus speaks of obviously cannot just be a loose collection of “believers” with Bibles, rather it is an authoritative and visible Church with the Power of Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise Christ would not have said it had the power to bind and loose.
The Faithful are expected by Our Lord to abide by the decisions of The Church. The great example of this is the Council of Jerusalem in Acts. The issue of Mosaic Law was settled there by the church leadership and every christian congregation in every city was to abide by it.
So we have the command as Christ taught it, the Council of Jerusalem as example, and 1500 years of Christian Church History demonstrating that this is the way the apostles and their successors interpreted it. All of this before anyone came up with the idea of “Sola Scriptura”.

This is what I mean by “Tell it To The Church” - Following Christ’s own command to us to remain united, and to submit to the Authority of His Church.

Unfortunately non-catholics lose this because do not recognize this command for what it is. Instead they have to come up with this “community of believers” without an earthly structure. The result of this noble experiment? thousands of independent Christian communities who all claim Christ, and all claim the Bible but cannot agree on what the Bible says or what it means.
I don’t think this is what Jesus had in mind when He prayed that the bretheren be united as He and the Father are united.

Sorry if I got a little windy here. Sometimes I get carried away.

Forgive me for not thanking you for the link. I’ve bookmarked it. I have a worn copy of the CCC, but the searchable version is nice.

No problem. Yes the searchable CCC is wonderful. I use it a lot myself.
I hope it helps you.

Peace
James

 

[Howie01]

I simply mean that Christ gave us the blueprint for settling issues in Matthew 18
Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Now, to be clear, the preaching of a “different gospel” or other heretical things would certainly qualify as a “Sin” so disagreements such as we are have would certainly apply here. Jesus tells us to take to “To the Church” and The Church (The Pillar and Foundation of Truth) has the authority to “Bind and Loose”.
This “Church” that Jesus speaks of obviously cannot just be a loose collection of “believers” with Bibles, rather it is an authoritative and visible Church with the Power of Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise Christ would not have said it had the power to bind and loose.
The Faithful are expected by Our Lord to abide by the decisions of The Church. The great example of this is the Council of Jerusalem in Acts. The issue of Mosaic Law was settled there by the church leadership and every christian congregation in every city was to abide by it.
So we have the command as Christ taught it, the Council of Jerusalem as example, and 1500 years of Christian Church History demonstrating that this is the way the apostles and their successors interpreted it. All of this before anyone came up with the idea of “Sola Scriptura”.

This is what I mean by “Tell it To The Church” - Following Christ’s own command to us to remain united, and to submit to the Authority of His Church.

Unfortunately non-catholics lose this because do not recognize this command for what it is. Instead they have to come up with this “community of believers” without an earthly structure. The result of this noble experiment? thousands of independent Christian communities who all claim Christ, and all claim the Bible but cannot agree on what the Bible says or what it means.
I don’t think this is what Jesus had in mind when He prayed that the bretheren be united as He and the Father are united.

Sorry if I got a little windy here. Sometimes I get carried away.

Thanks.