Was Death Present in the Garden of Eden, before the fall?

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JM3
thanks for the reply

The original definition of the word, “world” in the English language is, human existence. You know your world, the world, small world, the collective population of human beings on the planet earth. It does not mean the earth, like many Americans use it. Read the scriptures; first, God created the heaven and the earth. And then the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. There was waters that His Spirit to move on, wasn’t there? Just because God has made some thing doesn’t mean His Presence is in it. When His Spirit moved upon the face of the waters then was God’s Presence in His creation. The text says what it says.
I was not sure that you were right about the meaning of “world,” so I looked it up in my OED. You are right!

Now, what point is it that you are making about the word “world”? I do not see it quoted from scripture above, so I am a little lost about why/how it came up.
 
What “perfect harmony” exists between a couple who disobeys God? This seems quite a disharmony, honestly.

What “acceptance” do you mean? That is an interesting idea, but I don’t understand it yet. Do you mean accepting that their bodies would in fact die while their spirit lives on? Do you mean that Adam and Eve were made mortal (in body) but had no grief/awareness over it? If so, I am intrigued also by that idea. But it sounds like heresy! 🙂
I didn’t claim to be a theologian, but I can speculate concerning things no one knows. So, if it’s heresy, let’s condemn it. 🙂

I don’t see a problem with the notion that a couple may be in perfect harmony, say, with each other or, for that matter, with God, and then do something that breaks the harmony. That happens all the time in the human realm, and there’s nothing odd about it as long as people have free wills.

Let’s look at it this way. Are cattle, for example, discontented because they are obliged to eat grass? No, they’re not, though we certainly would be. Canines will eat things we find incredibly disgusting, yet it doesn’t bother them to do it, because it’s their nature to do it and they have no quarrel with that nature. They don’t aspire to anything else. I have observed animals all my life, having been raised on a ranch, and it is plain to me that their way of viewing many things is utterly different from ours. They readily accept what we would not tolerate. They don’t “regret”, for example. If you take a cow away from a better pasture and put it in a poorer one, it might remember and attempt to return to the better one. But if it finds it can’t, it doesn’t stand around bemoaning the fact that it can’t. It simply accepts the worse pasture. It could be said that they are in “perfect harmony” with their own natures, understanding, of course, that their natures are different from ours.

I believe there truly are (and have been) people who were more in harmony with their own natures than most of us are. An example would be, say, a saint who absolutely did not fear his own death and, in fact, welcomed it. On a more everyday sort of way, Da Vinci observed an old man who, it appeared, died with absolutely no regrets and with perfect equanimity. That old man was not a “recognized” saint, and seemed ordinary in every way to Da Vinci except for that acceptance. Da Vinci tried to discover a physical reason for it, but never did.

I am saying, then, (since we don’t actually know) that prior to the fall, Adam and Eve might have been perfectly accepting of their lives as God ordained them. Possibly Eden was a garden of delights and possibly their bodies would never die. But the bible does not make those things certain. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that Eden was a very ordinary place and Adam and Eve saw the transition from this life to the next as seamless; simply “a part of life”. Was Eden, then, a paradise objectively, or only subjectively? We don’t actually know.

But they did elect to “know good and evil”. There are different interpretations of that, and not the Church or anyone else claims to know exactly what that meant. Did they not know the difference? Or perhaps does “know” mean “experience”? What was the temptation? Was it perhaps the act of people having free will to depart from total trust in God because they thought somehow to elevate themselves by knowing first-hand what departing from it was? Was the true nature of their sin non-acceptance?

When one thinks about Jesus’ injunctions to “see the lilies of the field” that neither toil nor spin, and to “regard the ravens” whom the Father feeds, what is He addressing in humanity that needs correction? What’s the message? “Trust Providence” is the message. “Do not unduly concern yourself with controlling your world. Accept what comes. You will still be okay, though perhaps not in the way you thought.” might be another way of putting it.

Now, going back from that to Adam and Eve, is it possible that “knowing” included “knowing” in the sense of “determining one’s own ultimate good for oneself”; the thing we do that bedevils us the very most; the cause of all wars, all murders, all thefts, all discontents? Is our fundamental failure non-acceptance of the path laid out before us? Was “knowing” an act of the intellect, as we usually think, or an act of the will?

Shakepeare, I think, had it right in his development of MacBeth. What was MacBeth’s “sin”? MacBeth was, by birth, Thane of Glamis. By merit and the beneficence of the king, he also became Thane of Cawdor. So far, so good. Then the witches told him he was to be “king hereafter”. It was true in the outcome, but in reaching that goal, in grasping at something he, himself, rather than Providence decreed, MacBeth became a murderer. Not only a murderer, but intensely unhappy and ultimately unrepentent and brought to disaster of his own making. He insisted, at the witches’ deceptive encouragement, in creating his own universe; in “forcing Providence”.

I’m not saying any of this is the proper explanation of the Eden narrative. I’m only saying it’s possible. I doubt it’s heretical, but if it is, then let it be condemned. If someone who really is a theologian faithful to the teachings of the Church tells me it’s heretical, I will abandon the notion instantly and never speak of it again. Acceptance has more than one application. 🙂
 
JM3
thanks for the reply

The original definition of the word, “world” in the English language is, human existence. You know your world, the world, small world, the collective population of human beings on the planet earth.** It does not mean the earth**, like many Americans use it. Read the scriptures; first, God created the heaven and the earth. And then the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. There was waters that His Spirit to move on, wasn’t there? Just because God has made some thing doesn’t mean His Presence is in it. When His Spirit moved upon the face of the waters then was God’s Presence in His creation. The text says what it says.

Just because God created the elemental materials of all things created does not mean His Presence was therein. When God’s Presence moved in creation He spoke and then there was Light according to His Will. Where there was no Light, and then He divided the Light from the darkness and evening and morning was the first day. Then there was Light, order, and form, in creation. Where there was without form, and void; and darkness, because God spoke His Will in His Presence, in His creation.

No Presence of God, no Life therein. Isn’t there many things, that God has made, that has no life therein, or even on? If God removes something from His Presence that once had the Life He gives it by His Presence in it. Then it doesn’t have the Life His Presence gives it, does it?

Adam and Eve were perfect, in the Glory of God’s countenance. Then what happened? Well you know, you don’t see God, you don’t hear God, you don’t know God. You don’t even see and hear the Angeles singing Praises unto God in Heaven. Unless it be through the Holy One of Israel who restored us to God, in His Name, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is not sufficient to know that there is a God, it is sufficient to know the Mercy of God in His Holy Name, Jesus Christ forever.
‘The original definition of the word, “world” in the English language is, human existence’

dictionary.reference.com/browse/world?fromRef=true

world [wurld]
–noun
1. the earth or globe, considered as a planet.
2. ( often initial capital letter ) a particular division of the earth: the Western world.
3. the earth or a part of it, with its inhabitants, affairs, etc., during a particular period: the ancient world.
4. humankind; the human race; humanity: The world must eliminate war and poverty.
5. the public generally: The whole world knows it.
6. the class of persons devoted to the affairs, interests, or pursuits of this life: The world worships success.
7. a particular class of people, with common interests, aims, etc.: the fashionable world.
8. any sphere, realm, or domain, with all pertaining to it: a child’s world; the world of dreams; the insect world.
9. everything that exists; the universe; the macrocosm.
10. any complex whole conceived as resembling the universe: the world of the microcosm.
11. one of the three general groupings of physical nature: animal world; mineral world; vegetable world.
12. any period, state, or sphere of existence: this world; the world to come.
13. Often, worlds. a great deal: That vacation was worlds of fun.
14. any indefinitely great expanse.
15. any heavenly body: the starry worlds.

‘first, God created the heaven and the earth. And then the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.’

Read the Scriptures yourself. Genesis 1:1-2 is a preface to creation. Creation begins in verse 3.

‘Isn’t(aren’t) there many things, that God has made, that has(have) no life therein, or even on?’

Exodus 17:6. If the rock can bring forth water, how can it have no life? Must your understanding of life be focused only on you? Should God be limited to your ‘tunnel vision’?
 
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die Gen.2:17

The condition of death was present in the garden in Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.🙂
Adam must have been foaming at the mouth with bacteria that would not die. lol
 
What about those creatures that live off the decayed material of plants and animals that have died? If there was no death period before the fall, how could those creatures have existed?
 
larkin31

thanks for the reply
I was not sure that you were right about the meaning of “world,” so I looked it up in my OED. You are right!

Now, what point is it that you are making about the word “world”? I do not see it quoted from scripture above, so I am a little lost about why/how it came up.
When dealing with the English language especially if one favors the KJV it is a wise choice to use the OED for ref. It can offer insight into why the translators of the day chose the words they did, considering how the English language is used in many ways meaning many things.

from posting #12…
Maybe you misunderstand. It is true that death entered the world on account of man’s sin. But the world by definition is human existence. And there was no presence of Life in creation until the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Therefore there is nothing saying that such a thing as death was not before Adam and Eve ate of the tree. For if death was not, God would not have said so, before death enter the world (human existence).
Gen:2:16: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
It is to rebel against God’s Word or Commandment is death to that which He has given Life.
Trying to demonstrate that without the Presence of God in creation there is no Life present in creation. And His Word gives Light order, and form. But in man’s case the Presence of God is Life to the soul just as the blood is the life of the body ( meaning flesh).

Question:

If life is good why? If life is not good why? Is life good or not good, and who is to say it is or is not good?
 
What about those creatures that live off the decayed material of plants and animals that have died? If there was no death period before the fall, how could those creatures have existed?
Why do you assume that they existed before the fall? What is your evidence?
 
‘The original definition of the word, “world” in the English language is, human existence’

dictionary.reference.com/browse/world?fromRef=true

world [wurld]
–noun
1. the earth or globe, considered as a planet.
2. ( often initial capital letter ) a particular division of the earth: the Western world.
3. the earth or a part of it, with its inhabitants, affairs, etc., during a particular period: the ancient world.
4. humankind; the human race; humanity: The world must eliminate war and poverty.
5. the public generally: The whole world knows it.
6. the class of persons devoted to the affairs, interests, or pursuits of this life: The world worships success.
7. a particular class of people, with common interests, aims, etc.: the fashionable world.
8. any sphere, realm, or domain, with all pertaining to it: a child’s world; the world of dreams; the insect world.
9. everything that exists; the universe; the macrocosm.
10. any complex whole conceived as resembling the universe: the world of the microcosm.
11. one of the three general groupings of physical nature: animal world; mineral world; vegetable world.
12. any period, state, or sphere of existence: this world; the world to come.
13. Often, worlds. a great deal: That vacation was worlds of fun.
14. any indefinitely great expanse.
15. any heavenly body: the starry worlds.

‘first, God created the heaven and the earth. And then the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.’

Read the Scriptures yourself. Genesis 1:1-2 is a preface to creation. Creation begins in verse 3.

‘Isn’t(aren’t) there many things, that God has made, that has(have) no life therein, or even on?’

Exodus 17:6. If the rock can bring forth water, how can it have no life? Must your understanding of life be focused only on you? Should God be limited to your ‘tunnel vision’?
JM3

thanks for the reply

I don’t disagree that many dictionaries would define “world” as such and I told you that the word “world” is used in that manner. Many dictionaries follow the most common use of a word in what ever society it serves, and state they do so, rather then stay with it’s original meaning. Kinda like the lack of integrity in changing the meaning of something to appease the populous, even if it’s incorrect. But the Brits are the originators of the English language, hence the authorities in their own language, you use. Look it up in the 20 volume OED.

Hebrews are the authority on the Hebrew language, and Greeks are the authority on the Greek language, and Rome is the authority on Latin, isn’t it? Just because a populous uses a word incorrectly doesn’t mean they are correct, does it? Just because a populous uses a moral concept incorrectly to appease themselves, doesn’t mean they are correct, does it? It would only be in their own minds they are correct. Isn’t that so? JM3.

I see we are to disregard the first two verses, they don’t mean nothing right? At least according to you. Those parts aren’t true, only the parts you see as true. Am I correct in that assessment?

Are you saying that this should be disregarded also?
Gen:2:4: These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Hence in the order they were created. Every word, sentence, and verse is there because God wants it there, not because God wants to tell you a bed time story. Introductions are not necessary. Any Hebrew scholar of the Torah, worth his salt, would tell you that much.

Your insistence to be right, even if you are incorrect, is of no value, except only to you.
 
It’s perfectly reasonable to assume death existed before the fall – the Church teaches that evolution is compatible with Christian faith, and the universally received definition of biological evolution requires natural selection and the death of populations to work.

This is a good article on the subject.

What the Catechism and the Church teach is that spiritual death – estrangement from God and the privation of grace – did not exist before the fall. Physical death is theologically up for grabs, although I’d say the bulk of reasonable evidence suggests bodily death did occur prior to Adam.
 
It’s perfectly reasonable to assume death existed before the fall – the Church teaches that evolution is compatible with Christian faith, and the universally received definition of biological evolution requires natural selection and the death of populations to work.

This is a good article on the subject.

What the Catechism and the Church teach is that spiritual death – estrangement from God and the privation of grace – did not exist before the fall. Physical death is theologically up for grabs, although I’d say the bulk of reasonable evidence suggests bodily death did occur prior to Adam.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2I.HTM

Death

1006 "It is in regard to death that man’s condition is most shrouded in doubt."565 In a sense bodily death is natural, but for faith it is in fact "the wages of sin."566 For those who die in Christ’s grace it is a participation in the death of the Lord, so that they can also share his Resurrection.567

1007 Death is the end of earthly life. Our lives are measured by time, in the course of which we change, grow old and, as with all living beings on earth, death seems like the normal end of life. That aspect of death lends urgency to our lives: remembering our mortality helps us realize that we have only a limited time in which to bring our lives to fulfillment:

Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, . . . before the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.568

1008 Death is a consequence of sin. the Church’s Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, **teaches that death entered the world on account of man’s sin.**569 Even though man’s nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin.570 “Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” is thus “the last enemy” of man left to be conquered.571
 
JM3

thanks for the reply

I don’t disagree that many dictionaries would define “world” as such and I told you that the word “world” is used in that manner. Many dictionaries follow the most common use of a word in what ever society it serves, and state they do so, rather then stay with it’s original meaning. Kinda like the lack of integrity in changing the meaning of something to appease the populous, even if it’s incorrect. But the Brits are the originators of the English language, hence the authorities in their own language, you use. Look it up in the 20 volume OED.

Hebrews are the authority on the Hebrew language, and Greeks are the authority on the Greek language, and Rome is the authority on Latin, isn’t it? Just because a populous uses a word incorrectly doesn’t mean they are correct, does it? Just because a populous uses a moral concept incorrectly to appease themselves, doesn’t mean they are correct, does it? It would only be in their own minds they are correct. Isn’t that so? JM3.

I see we are to disregard the first two verses, they don’t mean nothing right? At least according to you. Those parts aren’t true, only the parts you see as true. Am I correct in that assessment?

Are you saying that this should be disregarded also?
Gen:2:4: These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Hence in the order they were created. Every word, sentence, and verse is there because God wants it there, not because God wants to tell you a bed time story. Introductions are not necessary. Any Hebrew scholar of the Torah, worth his salt, would tell you that much.

Your insistence to be right, even if you are incorrect, is of no value, except only to you.
Your words-
JM3
thanks for the reply

The original definition of the word, “world” in the English language is, human existence. You know your world, the world, small world, the collective population of human beings on the planet earth. It does not mean the earth, like many Americans use it.
‘I see we are to disregard the first two verses’

I never said, or implied, this.

Consider Genesis 1:1 - ‘In the beginning God created heaven and earth’ and John 8:25 - ‘They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you.’

I once had a conversation with an ‘experiential’ protestant. He also twisted around what I said and threw various bible verses around that had nothing to do with the subject. :hmmm:

‘Your insistence to be right, even if you are incorrect, is of no value, except only to you.’

Insult accepted. The peace of Christ be with you. 🙂
 
Why would you assume that conditions that exists now existed before the Fall?
Because eating an apple doesn’t change the constants of nature.
You would have to prove that hair, before the Fall, was made of ‘dying and multiplying’ cells. It is not something you can assume.
Yes, it is something we can assume.
 
What about those creatures that live off the decayed material of plants and animals that have died? If there was no death period before the fall, how could those creatures have existed?
You mean like dung beetles"? If they existed, there must have been manure in the Garden of Eden.
 
Your words-

‘I see we are to disregard the first two verses’

I never said, or implied, this.

Consider Genesis 1:1 - ‘In the beginning God created heaven and earth’ and John 8:25 - ‘They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you.’

I once had a conversation with an ‘experiential’ protestant. He also twisted around what I said and threw various bible verses around that had nothing to do with the subject. :hmmm:

‘Your insistence to be right, even if you are incorrect, is of no value, except only to you.’

Insult accepted. The peace of Christ be with you. 🙂
JM3

Please forgive me, sorry if I got heated there. I have no intention of insulting you.

That is not why we are here. It is to seek the Truth, and offer to others therein. And I know my statement about insistence to be right is of no value, is true. For I have been guilty of it many time, and the truth is ,even if your right, insistence to be right can be of no value.

Are we trying to win the day, or win the souls? Also one must be careful, there is a reason why the Scriptures are referred to as sacred.

There are those who don’t know, those who do know, and those who want to know. And the wise man knows that the Way of Life is always higher then himself. So therefore the wise man always wants to know.

The reason I have taken a hard core position on this one is I believe this topic is key to why the brake down in conversations and heated debates between the position of “there is a Living Knowable God” and “if there is a God we can’t find Him, we can’t know Him, and you can’t prove He is” position. There may be “ism” names for that, but I don’t know them. And the error is on our side of the conversation.

Take your statement about the water out of the rock which implies to me you might not understand some thing.

Consider, it is true that God Almighty is aware of every thing He has made, right? But does God have to be there in order to be aware of some thing or command something. Was God’s Presence with and in Moses or in the rock? The rock doesn’t have to be alive in order to respond to God’s command. The whole universe responds to God’s command. Heck, Lucifer has to respond to God’s command and we know God don’t hang out with Lucifer. We also know God made the darkness but we know God don’t hang out in darkness, but He is aware of both. Creation is made to accommodate Life, the Presence of Life therein, according to the source of Life, which He is.

As I understand it we and science can agree in the very first statement in the Bible.

Gen:1:1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

According to science, all things are made of time energy space matter, and something that started it.

In the beginning - time

God - something that started it

created - energy

heaven - space

and matter - earth

God provided time for energy to execute and the result is space and matter. Which had no form order or light therein. Science learns the laws of order form and light in respect to creation but does not acknowledge that it is of God. For we know that God was before the beginning and always was. Therefore God does not need time to be. But creation needs God to give time in order to be.

Science and the supporting philosophies of the position mentioned, sees creation without the Living God in it. But yet they know there is law of light order and form that controls it. That such things as time energy space and matter cannot disobey. Hence they see no source of Life in creation and consider Life to be of creation.

God made the elements of creation moved on the face of the waters where there was no form order and light and spoke. This does not mean that the things of God were not before creation. But creation is commanded to accommodated the Presence of things of God, in God’s Presence therein.

So was there such a thing as death before man sinned? Anything that is not of the Word of God, in the Presence of God, is not Life.

Again, the Lord’s Peace unto you my friend in Christ.
 
So was there such a thing as death before man sinned? Anything that is not of the Word of God, in the Presence of God, is not Life.
DPMartin, death is part of the life process. Without death there could be no life, no way to recycle nutrients for the next generation of organisms. So death has been around on earth for 3.5 billion years.

StAnastasia
 
The word “earth” in the Hebrew simply means dirt or land.

What exactly does the word world mean in hebrew?
 
Why do you assume that they existed before the fall? What is your evidence?
Well, you either think that God was DONE creating all of nature before the events of the Fall, or you believe that some creating and/or speciation occurred AFTER humans came to the planet. Which do you believe?
 
You mean like dung beetles"? If they existed, there must have been manure in the Garden of Eden.
I know what you mean, but I have never actually encountered anyone who believed that all the varieties of fauna and flora existed WITHIN the limits of Eden. Does anyone here actually think this?
 
I know what you mean, but I have never actually encountered anyone who believed that all the varieties of fauna and flora existed WITHIN the limits of Eden. Does anyone here actually think this?
Larkin31, how large do you assume the acreage of Eden was? According to Genesis 2:8-9 “Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground…” All “kinds” is used by Creationists as shorthand to refer to all species of trees, so presumably the garden of Eden was fairly vast, extending from sea level to at least fiteen thousand feet to accommodate trees of different ecological zones. It also included rain forest, desert, Savannah, temperate forest and tundra.

As for the animals, God “brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.” (Gen. 2:19). All the animals therefore lived in the garden, as Adam had not yet been thrust out of it. If there was grazing and eating going on, surely there was defecation going on as well, and without dung beetles to devour the accumulating manure the ground would have been fairly messy for Adam and Eve to walk on in bare feet. So I think it is safe to assume there were dung beetles in Eden.

StAnastasia
 
Well, you either think that God was DONE creating all of nature before the events of the Fall, or you believe that some creating and/or speciation occurred AFTER humans came to the planet. Which do you believe?
I believe Jesus.

John 5:17
 
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