Was Death Present in the Garden of Eden, before the fall?

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larkin31 said:
well, there’s two intelligent persons who won’t say yes or no or even “maybe.” 🤷

What would you tell children who ask if dinosaurs lived before humans?
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I do take my grandkids to a reasonably located, rather small museum of natural history which has a real dinosaur and great interactive displays. If my grandchild asked if dinosaurs lived before humans, I would answer that most likely they lived before humans, but it is also possible that they lived at the same time as humans, maybe in different areas. I want them to learn ways to be curious.

Blessings,
granny

God created amazing creatures.
 
JM3 said:
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2I.HTM

Death

1006 "It is in regard to death that man’s condition is most shrouded in doubt."565 In a sense bodily death is natural, but for faith it is in fact "the wages of sin."566 For those who die in Christ’s grace it is a participation in the death of the Lord, so that they can also share his Resurrection.567

1007 Death is the end of earthly life. Our lives are measured by time, in the course of which we change, grow old and, as with all living beings on earth, death seems like the normal end of life. That aspect of death lends urgency to our lives: remembering our mortality helps us realize that we have only a limited time in which to bring our lives to fulfillment:

Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, . . . before the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.568

1008 Death is a consequence of sin. the Church’s Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, **teaches that death entered the world on account of man’s sin.**569 Even though man’s nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin.570 “Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” is thus “the last enemy” of man left to be conquered.571
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Agree.

Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
 
larkin31 said:
A corollary question is, of course, do you deny the fossil record which very strongly indicates that thousands of entire species of plants and animals both came into and out of existence on this planet prior to the existence of homo sapiens?
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In fact, 99% of all species that have existed are no extinct. The coming into and going out of existence has a fact of biological life for hundreds of millions, indeed for billions of years.
 
larkin31 said:
What would you tell children who ask if dinosaurs lived before humans?
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Larkin, maybe Granny and David are among hte 44% of adult American who believe that dinosaurs and humans coexisted. That falsehood is being promoted by Answers in Genesis at their “Creation Museum” in northern Kentucky. Perhaps Granny and David live around there and have been misled.
 
grannymh said:
I do take my grandkids to a reasonably located, rather small museum of natural history which has a real dinosaur and great interactive displays. If my grandchild asked if dinosaurs lived before humans, I would answer that most likely they lived before humans, but it is also possible that they lived at the same time as humans, maybe in different areas. I want them to learn ways to be curious.
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Granny, how would you explain to your curious grandchildren that although all major dinosaur genera went extinct at the Cretaceous-Tertiary boundary 65 million years ago, you think they are still alive someplace? Of course, if you are referring to the birds, you are correct – they are the descendants of dinosaurs.

StAnastasia
 
davidv said:
Why isn’t “I don’t know.” an acceptable answer?
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In this case, it is intellectual cowardice or intellectual laziness (sorry, but you asked). I just don’t see how any person informed such as yourself can say, in mature honesty, “I don’t know if ever a single animal or plant lived and died before the first homo sapien lived on this planet.”
 
grannymh said:
I do take my grandkids to a reasonably located, rather small museum of natural history which has a real dinosaur and great interactive displays. If my grandchild asked if dinosaurs lived before humans, I would answer that most likely they lived before humans, but it is also possible that they lived at the same time as humans, maybe in different areas. I want them to learn ways to be curious.

Blessings,
granny

God created amazing creatures.
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Just “possible”? As in 50-50 “possibility”? To suggest to children that there is anything but the remotest of remote possibilities that a few yet-undiscovered (and unchanged) species of commonly called reptilian “dinosaurs” (and not, say, horseshoe crabs or birds) is to allow children to believe an untruth and to abuse their intellects.

Even children know (and deserve to know) that thousands of species have come into existence and left existence prior to the existence of our own species. It is an ethical crime to suggest to them anything else. It retards their intellect.
 
StAnastasia said:
Larkin, maybe Granny and David are among hte 44% of adult American who believe that dinosaurs and humans coexisted. That falsehood is being promoted by Answers in Genesis at their “Creation Museum” in northern Kentucky. Perhaps Granny and David live around there and have been misled.
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If it were as simple as that. Soft tissue has been found in “65 million year old” dino" fossils. And now in some other bones as well.
 
StAnastasia said:
In fact, 99% of all species that have existed are no extinct. The coming into and going out of existence has a fact of biological life for hundreds of millions, indeed for billions of years.
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no? or not? or now?

You make the assumption that lack of evidence means lack of existence ('I have no evidence of it, therefore it did not happen.). Is this good science?

Is something that you cannot conceive impossible in reality?
 
StAnastasia said:
Larkin, maybe Granny and David are among hte 44% of adult American who believe that dinosaurs and humans coexisted. That falsehood is being promoted by Answers in Genesis at their “Creation Museum” in northern Kentucky. Perhaps Granny and David live around there and have been misled.
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Presumptuous and untrue.
 
JM3 said:
no? or not? or now?
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In fact, 99% of all species that have existed are now extinct. The coming into and going out of existence has a fact of biological life for hundreds of millions, indeed for billions of years.
 
davidv said:
Presumptuous and untrue.
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No, it’s true that that many Americans are ignorant of basic science. I know it’s hard to believe such ignorance exists in 2010, but sadly it’s the case.
 
StAnastasia said:
Larkin, maybe Granny and David are among hte 44% of adult American who believe that dinosaurs and humans coexisted. That falsehood is being promoted by Answers in Genesis at their “Creation Museum” in northern Kentucky. Perhaps Granny and David live around there and have been misled.
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Perhaps you can’t see that this type of post seems to be an insult
directed at Granny and David as well as unnamed others?
 
catharina said:
Perhaps you can’t see that this type of post seems to be an insult directed at Granny and David as well as unnamed others?
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No, it’s not meant as an insult. Goodness knows I’ve been told many times by people who disagree with me on this forum that I’m being misled. That I believe they are misled does not prevent them from holding their views.

StAnastasia
 
StAnastasia said:
No, it’s not meant as an insult. Goodness knows I’ve been told many times by people who disagree with me on this forum that I’m being misled. That I believe they are misled does not prevent them from holding their views.

StAnastasia
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Insult (or ad hominem) might be concluded when one links the names of two posters to an obscure museum in KY. You might want to read your last previous posts with a more open mind to your tone.

The National Mustard Museum highlights mustards. Good for them.

BTW, as a first-grader in a Catholic grammar school (1950), I learned that we were free as Catholics to believe in the literal story of Creation -Bible- or in the idea of eventual changes over time -evolutio - but still CREATION.

IOW, God is not and cannot be excluded as Creator. Works for me.
 
catharina said:
BTW, as a first-grader in a Catholic grammar school (1950), I learned that we were free as Catholics to believe in the literal story of Creation -Bible- or in the idea of eventual changes over time -evolutio - but still CREATION
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Telling you that you were free to either accept or reject empirical evidence was telling you nothing. Of course you are “free” to do either. And now, especially after 60 more years of continuing evidence, we are still “free” to accept or reject that there have been thousands and thousands of species that lived and died before the presence of humans on the planet. But the intellectual ignorance in rejecting that evidence is all the more clear.
 
larkin31 said:
Telling you that you were free to either accept or reject empirical evidence was telling you nothing. Of course you are “free” to do either. And now, especially after 60 more years of continuing evidence, we are still “free” to accept or reject that there have been thousands and thousands of species that lived and died before the presence of humans on the planet. But the intellectual ignorance in rejecting that evidence is all the more clear.
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What is being shown is abrupt appearance and then stasis.
 
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