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Darian
Guest
???
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thirddec
Guest
would there have been any other kind in biblical days?
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mark_a
Guest
I understand that Jews think that the unfermented wine question is a real hoot.
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InspiritCarol
Guest
Isn’t that redundant? I mean, by definition, wine is fermented grapes… or am I missing something?
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Darian
Guest
Exo 12:19 Seven days there shall not be found any leaven in your houses: he that shall eat leavened bread, his soul shall perish out of the assembly of Israel, whether he be a stranger or born in the land.
Exo 12:20 You shall not eat any thing leavened: in all your habitations you shall eat unleavened bread.
How could fermented wine be used and not break the command to eat no leaven?
Exo 12:20 You shall not eat any thing leavened: in all your habitations you shall eat unleavened bread.
How could fermented wine be used and not break the command to eat no leaven?
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Publisher
Guest
Without a doubt the wine used at the Last Supper was fermented…
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Madaglan
Guest
The no leavened ordinance referred to bread and not to wine.
Wine, in any case, is drunk, not eaten.
Wine, in any case, is drunk, not eaten.
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Nine_Two
Guest
I challenge for anyone who believes it was grape juice: Make your own grape juice using the technology of the time. Using varieties that were around then, and grown using methods around then.
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Trishie
Guest
They didn’t rush out and crush grapes for grape juice.
The wine was already there, already fermented wine, so took no time to prepare or ‘decant’ in this hasty operation, and in the commemmoration of the event.
The main object was haste, needed to allow the Jews to flee.
The directive to leave out leaven concerned the extra time necessary to make leavened bread.
The wine was already there, already fermented wine, so took no time to prepare or ‘decant’ in this hasty operation, and in the commemmoration of the event.
The main object was haste, needed to allow the Jews to flee.
The directive to leave out leaven concerned the extra time necessary to make leavened bread.
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DaveBj
Guest
Hmm…let’s see…
- It had been approximately six months since the grape harvest.
- Refrigeration = technology + electricity; neither was available in the 1st century.
- Dr. Welch’s pasteurization process for grape juice was 1830-ish years in the future.
DaveBj
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puzzleannie
Guest
celebrating Passover w/o wine simply does not cut it. no way.
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patrick457
Guest
Because the Hebrew definition of chametz or ‘leaven’ is: a product that is (a) made from one of five types of grains, traditionally identified as wheat, spelt, barley, oats, and rye, and (b) has been exposed to moisture and left to stand raw for a certain period of time before baking in which the introduction of an agent of change may occur.
Even products of the five grains are not considered chametz until the process of chimutz (‘fermentation’) has begun. Despite these translations the concept is not identical to the technical chemical process of fermentation but is instead a concept formally defined in Jewish law. Under the formal definition, any flour from the five grains combined with water and allowed to stand for longer than eighteen minutes without being baked is ‘leaven’ or chametz. By contrast, flour combined with liquids other than water, say, pure fruit juice (that is, juice squeezed directly from the fruit, not reconstituted fruit juice) cannot become chametz even if the dough is allowed to sit for hours and swell up.
Wine is able to be used at Passover because it is not a grain product and hence does and could not fall under the prohibition against chametz under the law.
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
The prohibition against leaven in the bread was that it was a reminder of the passover, when the Jews were told to eat unleavened bread as a matter of urgency, and not wait for it to rise.
It’s got nothing to do with wine or grape juice.
There is absolutely no Scriptural justification in the Bible whatsoever for using “grape juice” in place of wine.
The protestant practice of using grape juice is actually based on social concerns ie. using alcohol might lead to alcoholism, or could be dangerous to alcoholics in the congregation. But that’s got nothing to do with the Last Supper, the Passover, Communion or the Eucharist.
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JHow
Guest
I don’t think we can appy a modern understanding of how yeasts work (bacteria) to the ancient words for leaven, bread, and wine. We have knowledge the ancients didn’t about this subject. Besides, isn’t the real issue here the presence of alcohol, not the absence of yeast?
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Corki
Guest
Because you don’t “leaven” grapes. Yeast has two different actions. When added to wheat, it leavens. When added to crushed grapes, it ferments. The Scripture doesn’t say, "you shall not eat or drink anything with yeast added’. It specifically speakes to leavening a process that requires both yeast AND grain.
I know, not quite the subject, but I understand Orthodoxy uses leavened bread. Maybe you can explain why so, and is it a bone of contention between west and east? As a side note, Lutherans traditionally use unleavened bread, but I have seen leavened bread used.
Jon
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Why would Christ have brought up that He was a wine drinker, as an accusation from others, if that wine was not fermented?
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Nine_Two
Guest
I’ve heard the explanation before, I’m not confident on it, it’s something along the lines of Christ being the leaven.
I believe there was a Synod which condemned the use of unleavened bread, but that was at a time when relations were quite low. I don’t think it is much of an issue these days.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Whats the whole point of this thread? Is this some left field fringe so-called Christian Cult thinking that would like to show Christ in any other light than GOD?
How about we just cut to the chase?
Prayers are with you, Gary
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Oldtimer_7
Guest
Speaking only for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the use of leavened bread is considered to be the most ancient attested practice in the church. It was only in the Middle Ages that the use of unleavened wafers became common. The use of a single loaf of bread is considered to be a sign of the unity of believers. This point of view is explicated in the Use of the Means of Grace, which was adopted in 1997.
I have seen a painting in Bruges, Belgium in which a larger loaf was painted out in order to paint in an unleavened wafer. Quite frankly, I don’t think the presence of a few bubbles in the bread would do much to deter Jesus from being truly present.
I bake the bread for our congregation and can and have baked both leavened and unleavened bread. The congregation prefers leavened. When we speak of the Foretaste of the Feast to come, I do not associate that with flavorless wafers sticking to my palate.
I have seen a painting in Bruges, Belgium in which a larger loaf was painted out in order to paint in an unleavened wafer. Quite frankly, I don’t think the presence of a few bubbles in the bread would do much to deter Jesus from being truly present.
I bake the bread for our congregation and can and have baked both leavened and unleavened bread. The congregation prefers leavened. When we speak of the Foretaste of the Feast to come, I do not associate that with flavorless wafers sticking to my palate.
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