Was God being evil when He killed all the firstborn in Egypt?

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Hi,

I have read some posts on this forum about this question and was not satisfied with the answers. At face value, God’s killing of the egyptian first born was a strange act, especially when we speak of God as Love. It seems to sit in stark contrast to Jesus’ " 'Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God …
" and I’m sure He said something about how bad it is to hurt children.

Now, my faith, though still developing, as is my understanding of things Catholic and Biblical, can accept that God is Love and whatever He did, though I do not understand it, was actually somehow just. However, my wife’s faith, a cradle Catholic with no formation in the faith that I can determine, cannot get past it.

For my wife, killing an innocent child is wrong. End of story. No fancy statement that God can do what he wants, and he is just, cuts it with her. “Just?” she says, “he kills children, that’s not just”. But it’s God, I assure her, he knows what he’s doing don’t worry. “He kills children” she says, it contradicts everything they say about a loving God.

I need an effective and practical answer to this. Please respond.

As a side note, have a look at this article. I would be very interested in people’s response to that as well.

christian-thinktank.com/killheir.html
 
Let me pose something to you, not so much as a sidetrack, but as a way of maybe leading to a good explanation.

What happens, in your mind, to the soul of a baby that dies today. Whether its from abortion, or maybe infant death syndrome?
 
Hi,

I have read some posts on this forum about this question and was not satisfied with the answers. At face value, God’s killing of the egyptian first born was a strange act, especially when we speak of God as Love. It seems to sit in stark contrast to Jesus’ " 'Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God …
" and I’m sure He said something about how bad it is to hurt children.

Now, my faith, though still developing, as is my understanding of things Catholic and Biblical, can accept that God is Love and whatever He did, though I do not understand it, was actually somehow just. However, my wife’s faith, a cradle Catholic with no formation in the faith that I can determine, cannot get past it.

For my wife, killing an innocent child is wrong. End of story. No fancy statement that God can do what he wants, and he is just, cuts it with her. “Just?” she says, “he kills children, that’s not just”. But it’s God, I assure her, he knows what he’s doing don’t worry. “He kills children” she says, it contradicts everything they say about a loving God.

I need an effective and practical answer to this. Please respond.

As a side note, have a look at this article. I would be very interested in people’s response to that as well.

christian-thinktank.com/killheir.html
Your wife says “God kills children-thats not just”. Who made those children?

She really cant have it both ways-a “just” God who gives the gift of life turns into an “unjust” God when he takes away the life he gave?All of us die-is that “just”
 
The way I see it, and it is only my opinion, if there is something I cannot understand with regard to what God allows, then the fault is not God’s but my imperfect understanding.

And, then I think of the babies and how the Lord surely embraced their innocent souls and filled them with His Love after they died.

God sees the bigger picture, we don’t. Men saw that the true God was with Israel, His chosen people.
 
Everyone who isn’t killed by another human being is killed by God, you know. It would be evil if this life were all there is, but it simply isn’t. We all die to this corrupted flesh eventually.

Remember that we killed God’s son, too. God knows what it’s like.
 
also, wasn’t if Pharaoh who chose the 10th plague? that Moses told him about it. then Pharaoh still decided to kill all the first born of the Hebrews, so God sent the angel of death to take all the first born except those protected by the blood of the lamb
 
Ok, so I know this is a difficult question. How can a God of Love, turn around and kill children? What kind of love is this.

We are of course referring to the 10th plague visited upon the Egyptians by God. It seems that each plague was of a type that was intended to show the Egyptians that the God of the Hebrews was greater than any god the Egyptians might claim. Thus we have:

1.Turning the Nile to blood, Exodus 7:14-25. Isis was the Egyptian god of the Nile. Khnum was the guardian of the Nile.
2.Frogs, Exodus 8:1-5. Heget was the goddess of birth and had the head of a frog.
3.Gnats, Exodus 8:16-19. Set was the god of the desert.
4.Flies, Exodus 8:20-32. Re was the sun god. Uatchit was a god possibly represented by the fly.
5.Death of Livestock, Exodus 9:1-7. Hathor, goddess with a cow’s head. Apis was the bull god.
6.Boils, Exodus 9:8-12. Sekmet, goddess that had power over disease. Sunu, the god of pestilence.
7.Hail, Exodus 9:13-35. Nut, the goddess of the sky. Set, god of storms.
8.Locusts, Exodus 10:1-20. Osiris, god of crops.
9.Darkness, Exodus 10:21-29. Re, the sun god. Horus, a sun god. Hathor, sky goddess.
10.Death of firstborn, Exodus 11:1 - 12:30. Min, god of reproduction. Isis, goddess who protected children. Pharaoh, considered a god.1

Almost all the following information comes form christian-thinktank.com/.2
  • Approximately 69000 children were killed by the plague, or slightly less than 3% of the total population.
  • 10 clear and specific demands to let the Hebrews go, followed by a practical and forewarned consequence.
  • Pharaohs and the Egyptians had a comprehensive infanticide program running against the Hebrews for possibly 80 years.
  • The Egyptians first tried to control Hebrew numbers through forced labour, meaning they worked them literally to death. Men, women and children.
  • The Egyptians then instituted the infanticide program where all Egyptians, who were trained to hate the Hebrews, where ordered and expected to kill all male male babies of the Hebrews upon birth, by drowning.
  • Approximately 2,750,000 male Hebrew babies were murdered over the 80 years of slavery.
  • This infanticide and the working the slaves to death, to manage the population levels of the Hebrews was set to continue, until God’s intervention.
  • Important note, there is no suggestion that either innocent deaths of the Hebrews or of the Egyptian male first-born children was a punishment to those children. There is absolutely no reason to think that Christ’s death and resurrection, which reaches throughout ALL time, did not also mean that these children were brought into heaven. In fact, there is every reason to believe that these children are now living in paradise.
  • Important note two, there is a qualitative difference in the deaths. The Egyptian first-born male children seem to have died in their sleep, with no suffering. On the other hand, the Egyptians killed the Hebrew children primarily through drowning.
  • The 10th plague as an absolute last resort.
  • Pharaoh was warned in no uncertain terms, and given ample opportunity to avoid the tragedy, but he and his court refused to release the Hebrew’s from their tortuous and murderous slavery.
  • Both the Egyptians and the Hebrews, as with most of the ancient civilisations of this time and location, operated under primitive and shared standards. “An eye for an eye”. The moral code of that time was that if it was alright for Pharaoh to kill the children of other races, then it was morally alright for other races to kill Egyptian children. That is to say, for every child the Egyptians killed, then the Hebrews and their God have the right to kill an Egyptian child. This code was such that a person of that time would never have held God responsible, but rather Pharaoh, who had begun the killing of innocents.
  • God’s action was a one-time event, which stopped the continuing killing by Pharaoh; Pharaoh’s program was every day, every year, every decade…
In summary, I have to agree that God was actually extremely lenient on the Egyptians. He was able to meet the moral code of that time in such a way as to halt, once and for all, the Hebrew labour death camp and infanticide of the Hebrews. He did not take the first-born Egyptians in violence, but quickly, and in their sleep, for it happened around midnight. He tried over and over to stop this violence against the Hebrews, but to no avail. In fact, the Egyptian response was to work them even harder, which is to say, they already worked so hard they were dying, so this meant they would be dying even more often.

How do you stop them. You cannot take away their free will. It was clearly important to God that the Egyptians tell the Hebrews to go and be free. The Hebrews had also lost all faith in God. Only an act like this would allow all of this to happen.

Remember too, that the Hebrews had not even entered into the first covenant with God. They were themselves in the very early stages of coming to know God. They did not even have the Ten Commandments yet. So God was dealing with very primitive peoples on both sides and dealing with them in the ways of their time.

For me, in addition to all this, I do believe God is Love, as expressed in Christ’s Passion, Death and Resurrection. I do believe God is Just. More so than any human can ever be, or comprehend. And, although I may not understand everything in the Bible, or in life generally, that does not mean to me that God is not Just. It simply means I don’t understand yet. But I have faith that I will.

However, I still don’t understand what purpose would be served by God hardening Pharaoh’s heart. Is there a meaning here I am missing?
 
Let me pose something to you, not so much as a sidetrack, but as a way of maybe leading to a good explanation.

What happens, in your mind, to the soul of a baby that dies today. Whether its from abortion, or maybe infant death syndrome?
Pax,

I want to ask this of you again. I think it can help us lead to an answer.
 
Hi Notworthy. Sorry to not respond specifically. I felt I had answered your question earlier. As a Catholic, I believe, as others here have stated, that the souls of babies are ultimately taken to God. I am hopeful that this is true of aborted infants also.

What I am really after, is for someone point to me towards some good exegesis on Exodus. Some respected historical criticism of these passages and the overall historical milieu in which they fit.
 
God cannot murder because all life belongs to him - to use for His greater purpose. So even when he takes a life, it is not a murder like when one human ends anothers life. Humans are guilty of murder because life does not belong to us. I know a lot people get scandalized by parts of the OT - and a lot of Christians try to white-wash over it or ignore it all together. It is an exercise in obedience and realizing just how total God is.
Every earthly lifespan is God’s to end including mine.
 
However, I still don’t understand what purpose would be served by God hardening Pharaoh’s heart. Is there a meaning here I am missing?
“Ver. 21. I shall harden, &c. Not by being the efficient cause of his sin; but by withdrawing from him, for his just punishment, the dew of grace, that might have softened his heart; and so suffering him to grow harder and harder.” -Haydock’s Bible Commentary
 
Hi,

I have read some posts on this forum about this question and was not satisfied with the answers. At face value, God’s killing of the egyptian first born was a strange act, especially when we speak of God as Love. It seems to sit in stark contrast to Jesus’ " 'Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God …
" and I’m sure He said something about how bad it is to hurt children.

Now, my faith, though still developing, as is my understanding of things Catholic and Biblical, can accept that God is Love and whatever He did, though I do not understand it, was actually somehow just. However, my wife’s faith, a cradle Catholic with no formation in the faith that I can determine, cannot get past it.

For my wife, killing an innocent child is wrong. End of story. No fancy statement that God can do what he wants, and he is just, cuts it with her. “Just?” she says, “he kills children, that’s not just”. But it’s God, I assure her, he knows what he’s doing don’t worry. “He kills children” she says, it contradicts everything they say about a loving God.

I need an effective and practical answer to this. Please respond.

As a side note, have a look at this article. I would be very interested in people’s response to that as well.

christian-thinktank.com/killheir.html
I would say that if God does it, we can’t say that it’s evil. It isn’t our place to judge God.

Otherwise, you could say, Why did God let the Israelites wander for forty years? Instead of manna, why didn’t he just give them a map?

And it’s down the slippery slope from there…
 
It is sad that the answer to the question is not so well known that the question itself is considered rhetorical.

Good is good because of what God is. God is not measured by some outside standard of good and evil. He is the measure.

Hence any question “Was God evil…” has the very quick answer “No!”

The child believes he is the center of the universe. Growing up occurs when you recognize that God is. This is the difference between the instinctive animal and man who can understand and respond to the Word of God.

So what do we do when we don’t understand? We ask for God’s wisdom.

Pr 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

Pr 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

One who fears death does not believe that Christ conquered it and is in bondage to it.

Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

When you trust that Christ has conquered death, that he is Lord, then you can trust that he is running his universe correctly.

The fear of death makes us give death a disproportionate weight to it in our view of the world. Others here have said it better above.
 
Hi Notworthy. Sorry to not respond specifically. I felt I had answered your question earlier. As a Catholic, I believe, as others here have stated, that the souls of babies are ultimately taken to God. I am hopeful that this is true of aborted infants also.
So you believe that, when humans kill babies for selfish reasons that God takes care of the souls of those babies. I agree with you.

So, wouldn’t it also make sense that, when God kills babies as part of a lesson to all of mankind of the dangers of paganism, that He also takes care of the souls of those babies?

Its easy to call God the “Author of Life”, but people tend to forget that He is also the “Author of the Afterlife”.
What I am really after, is for someone point to me towards some good exegesis on Exodus. Some respected historical criticism of these passages and the overall historical milieu in which they fit.
I’ll see if I can find something worth reading. I think the Navarre Bible handles it well, and I’ll see if I can find it.
 
OP, It seems your wife needs a better answers than God cannot do evil (which is true) so I’ll try to give you one that she may understand better.

From a **human **stand point God rains a punishment down on the innocent little ones, strikes these children down, kills them, leaves their lifeless little bodies to decay in the sands of Egypt. (and I’m sure this imagery is what upsets your wife).

From **Gods **point of view he simply called them home to himself, leaving their temporary shell of this world behind as a punishment to the Egyptians.

If she believes at all in God and the concept of heaven, she has to see that this is not a punishment on the children (who get to forego all the pain and trouble of this world and proceed directly to the Father) but on the parents.

The problem you will have is getting past the knee jerk emotional reaction, but try to get her to see what is taking place from Gods POV instead of ours, and she might find some peace with this passage 🙂
 
Ok, so I know this is a difficult question. How can a God of Love, turn around and kill children? What kind of love is this.

We are of course referring to the 10th plague visited upon the Egyptians by God. It seems that each plague was of a type that was intended to show the Egyptians that the God of the Hebrews was greater than any god the Egyptians might claim. Thus we have:

1.Turning the Nile to blood, Exodus 7:14-25. Isis was the Egyptian god of the Nile. Khnum was the guardian of the Nile.
2.Frogs, Exodus 8:1-5. Heget was the goddess of birth and had the head of a frog.
3.Gnats, Exodus 8:16-19. Set was the god of the desert.
4.Flies, Exodus 8:20-32. Re was the sun god. Uatchit was a god possibly represented by the fly.
5.Death of Livestock, Exodus 9:1-7. Hathor, goddess with a cow’s head. Apis was the bull god.
6.Boils, Exodus 9:8-12. Sekmet, goddess that had power over disease. Sunu, the god of pestilence.
7.Hail, Exodus 9:13-35. Nut, the goddess of the sky. Set, god of storms.
8.Locusts, Exodus 10:1-20. Osiris, god of crops.
9.Darkness, Exodus 10:21-29. Re, the sun god. Horus, a sun god. Hathor, sky goddess.
10.Death of firstborn, Exodus 11:1 - 12:30. Min, god of reproduction. Isis, goddess who protected children. Pharaoh, considered a god.1

Almost all the following information comes form christian-thinktank.com/.2
  • Approximately 69000 children were killed by the plague, or slightly less than 3% of the total population.
  • 10 clear and specific demands to let the Hebrews go, followed by a practical and forewarned consequence.
  • Pharaohs and the Egyptians had a comprehensive infanticide program running against the Hebrews for possibly 80 years.
  • The Egyptians first tried to control Hebrew numbers through forced labour, meaning they worked them literally to death. Men, women and children.
  • The Egyptians then instituted the infanticide program where all Egyptians, who were trained to hate the Hebrews, where ordered and expected to kill all male male babies of the Hebrews upon birth, by drowning.
  • Approximately 2,750,000 male Hebrew babies were murdered over the 80 years of slavery.
  • This infanticide and the working the slaves to death, to manage the population levels of the Hebrews was set to continue, until God’s intervention.
  • Important note, there is no suggestion that either innocent deaths of the Hebrews or of the Egyptian male first-born children was a punishment to those children. There is absolutely no reason to think that Christ’s death and resurrection, which reaches throughout ALL time, did not also mean that these children were brought into heaven. In fact, there is every reason to believe that these children are now living in paradise.
  • Important note two, there is a qualitative difference in the deaths. The Egyptian first-born male children seem to have died in their sleep, with no suffering. On the other hand, the Egyptians killed the Hebrew children primarily through drowning.
  • The 10th plague as an absolute last resort.
  • Pharaoh was warned in no uncertain terms, and given ample opportunity to avoid the tragedy, but he and his court refused to release the Hebrew’s from their tortuous and murderous slavery.
  • Both the Egyptians and the Hebrews, as with most of the ancient civilisations of this time and location, operated under primitive and shared standards. “An eye for an eye”. The moral code of that time was that if it was alright for Pharaoh to kill the children of other races, then it was morally alright for other races to kill Egyptian children. That is to say, for every child the Egyptians killed, then the Hebrews and their God have the right to kill an Egyptian child. This code was such that a person of that time would never have held God responsible, but rather Pharaoh, who had begun the killing of innocents.
  • God’s action was a one-time event, which stopped the continuing killing by Pharaoh; Pharaoh’s program was every day, every year, every decade…
In summary, I have to agree that God was actually extremely lenient on the Egyptians. He was able to meet the moral code of that time in such a way as to halt, once and for all, the Hebrew labour death camp and infanticide of the Hebrews. He did not take the first-born Egyptians in violence, but quickly, and in their sleep, for it happened around midnight. He tried over and over to stop this violence against the Hebrews, but to no avail. In fact, the Egyptian response was to work them even harder, which is to say, they already worked so hard they were dying, so this meant they would be dying even more often.

How do you stop them. You cannot take away their free will. It was clearly important to God that the Egyptians tell the Hebrews to go and be free. The Hebrews had also lost all faith in God. Only an act like this would allow all of this to happen.

Remember too, that the Hebrews had not even entered into the first covenant with God. They were themselves in the very early stages of coming to know God. They did not even have the Ten Commandments yet. So God was dealing with very primitive peoples on both sides and dealing with them in the ways of their time.

For me, in addition to all this, I do believe God is Love, as expressed in Christ’s Passion, Death and Resurrection. I do believe God is Just. More so than any human can ever be, or comprehend. And, although I may not understand everything in the Bible, or in life generally, that does not mean to me that God is not Just. It simply means I don’t understand yet. But I have faith that I will.
An outstanding post. Well done sir, well done.
 
I would say that if God does it, we can’t say that it’s evil. It isn’t our place to judge God.

Otherwise, you could say, Why did God let the Israelites wander for forty years? Instead of manna, why didn’t he just give them a map?

And it’s down the slippery slope from there…
The reason is stated to rid the tribe of those that were unfaithful as they were not all slain initially right after Moses broke the tablets.
 
I am quite late to the discussion, but I would like to answer the original question. It is a good one and I have pondered it often myself. The attached link is very interesting and a great answer in and of itself.

I would submit that Cecil B. DeMill’s interpretation in “The Ten Commandments” is one of the best I have seen. At the end of the plagues, the loss of his entire work force, the loss of his chariots in the Red Sea, and even (it could be argued) the loss of his wife, Pharaoh in the movie is finally convinced and proclaims “His god IS God!” The point made is that these events were not for the Jews alone, but God used these events to convert Pharaoh as well.

In the greater context, I have come to the conclusion that it is the story of Pharaoh, not the Jews, that is the great lesson to us all. When great things happen to us, that is obvious – we think God has helped us or done good for us and we give Him glory. But when things go against us, God is on our side as well. We are an example to others in how we deal with that adversity. God has allowed trials and temptations because he believes in us, and because these events will (if we succeed) strengthen our faith. It is in times of hardship, not peace, that become our opportunities to be true witnesses of Christ’s suffering and offer the world a proper, loving, Christian response for others who see us in these trials.

When God leads us as we play the role of Moses, it is easy to get his point. When he struggles to lead us when we are obstinate like Pharaoh, let us pray we get the message before God counts to 10!

PAX
 
“Ver. 21. I shall harden, &c. Not by being the efficient cause of his sin; but by withdrawing from him, for his just punishment, the dew of grace, that might have softened his heart; and so suffering him to grow harder and harder.” -Haydock’s Bible Commentary
Excellent, thankyou. This is the kind of thing I am looking for.
 
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