Was God selfish for granting us Free Will?

[Cari]

I’ve read/heard it explained that God granted us free will so we could CHOOSE to love and serve Him. That God loved us so much that He didn’t want a mindless, choiceless love from us, but rather one that was willingly given.

Based on this understanding, how can free will not be seen as a selfish decision on God’s part? Knowing what could/does/and will happen when human beings, endowed with choice, choose evil, how could He allow that, just for the chance to be freely loved?

 

[SyCarl]

I do not think that it is wise for us to question why God has done something. His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are far higher than we could ever hop to understand. Using terms like selfish is trying to fit God into a human mold. It can’t be done. God is infinite and we can only comprehend Him to the extent that He has chosen to reveal himself to us. While He tells us of Himself in human terms we can understand, that does not in turn mean that we can apply our own human terms to Him.

 

[baltobetsy]

Whoa! Watch out for lightning, OK?

Seriously, though, I think it’s just the opposite. That automatic love that comes without free will is a cheap, sure thing.

But God chose to elevate humans, giving us the choice to love or not. He takes the chance of not being loved by some of us in order to raise up everyone with the opportunity to choose. He honors us by giving us free will.

Betsy

 

[Cari]

I do not think that it is wise for us to question why God has done something. His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are far higher than we could ever hop to understand. Using terms like selfish is trying to fit God into a human mold. It can’t be done. God is infinite and we can only comprehend Him to the extent that He has chosen to reveal himself to us. While He tells us of Himself in human terms we can understand, that does not in turn mean that we can apply our own human terms to Him.

Agreed.

However, this isn’t particularly useful in addressing the question at hand. The “we just aren’t allowed to know, and so don’t even question it” line isn’t going to help someone seeking God.

 

[Cari]

Seriously, though, I think it’s just the opposite. That automatic love that comes without free will is a cheap, sure thing.

So God has allowed us to commit the worst kinds of violence to one another so he can avoid the “cheap, sure thing”, and get a better version of love instead? He created us and our natures, why not create us to give Him the real deal without the free will?

But God chose to elevate humans, giving us the choice to love or not. He takes the chance of not being loved by some of us in order to raise up everyone with the opportunity to choose. He honors us by giving us free will.

How are we elevated by living in a reality that allows for the murder of unborn, the rape of children, the murder of whole families, and the warring of entire countries? The whole lot of us are elevated, despite all this, by those who choose for God? Do the actions of, say, a St. Maximillian Kolbe elevate humans higher than the actions of any mother who aborted her child drag us down?

 

[whatevergirl]

Agreed.

However, this isn’t particularly useful in addressing the question at hand. The “we just aren’t allowed to know, and so don’t even question it” line isn’t going to help someone seeking God.

I agree with you–but will say that as I grow older, I realize that part of my seeking God, is to not always come away with answers to all of my questions. Leaving things to God…causes us to surrender. There is a peacefulness that comes with that…not necessarily in the beginning, though. lol

I agree with the poster who said that it’s just the opposite. Giving us free will…shows us that He wants our love…voluntarily on our parts, not forced on His part.

 

[jrabs]

I also agree it’s just the opposite. I think giving us free will to love God is the biggest act of selflessness.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

God created us in HIS image and likeness. Meaning we have intellect and free will. He paid us a compliment. That is not selfish.

We are the ones who took that gift of intellect and free will and perverted it.

And God loves us enough to try to remedy it and give us His help. No selfishness there.

On a human level, if you could have a robot spouse who did not think for themself, and was programmed to love you, would you truly feel loved? Would you want robot children? Would you want your friends who have no choice but to be your friends?

No. Because we are created in God’s image and likeness. We are smart enough to know that having no free will is having no will at all. Intellect without a free will is being a robot. Free will without an intellect is a recipe for disaster. (Also why we don’t let two-year-olds loose. It won’t end well.)

Why are you complaining that God created us in His image and likeness?

 

[Aleii]

However, this isn’t particularly useful in addressing the question at hand. The “we just aren’t allowed to know, and so don’t even question it” line isn’t going to help someone seeking God.

Agreed, dismissing questions on a discussion board is not a positive thing, IMHO.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Cari,

I think that some of what you are expressing comes from the assumption that God wanted/desired/needed love (freely given or otherwise).

God does not need anything from us: worship, love, obedience, etc. God does not need anything in the created order at all. He would have been perfectly “happy” without any creatures in the first place.

The free-will God grants us is consistent with our natures (i.e. the nature of personhood). The free-will is not so that *God *can have us freely choose to love Him, but rather for us to be lucky enough to *participate in His love, *which preexisted us, and everything. He gives us the opportunity to freely participate ( “to take part in”) His being, which is perfect and whole and without any lack what-so-ever.

What do you think?

VC

 

[Cari]

God created us in HIS image and likeness. Meaning we have intellect and free will. He paid us a compliment. That is not selfish.

This is good. So you’re saying that part of being made in God’s image meant we were given the capacity for free will, that is was part and parcel with the “image” bit, and not something seperate?

We are the ones who took that gift of intellect and free will and perverted it.

Also a good point, if free will was part of the larger “being made in God’s image” package. Not such a good point if free will were an individual “gift”, because God knew what some of us would do with it once we had it.

And God loves us enough to try to remedy it and give us His help. No selfishness there.

Try to remedy what? Free will? Or the consequences of us choosing evil over God? Again, if we’d never been given free will, we’d never be in a position to need saving from it.

On a human level, if you could have a robot spouse who did not think for themself, and was programmed to love you, would you truly feel loved? Would you want robot children? Would you want your friends who have no choice but to be your friends?
No. Because we are created in God’s image and likeness. We are smart enough to know that having no free will is having no will at all. Intellect without a free will is being a robot. Free will without an intellect is a recipe for disaster. (Also why we don’t let two-year-olds loose. It won’t end well.)

Totally agree. But as was pointed out, God’s ways are not human ways. And why would God care if we loved Him with or without our will? Assuming that “robot love” (for lack of a better term ) is less acceptable to God than “free will love” is squeezing God into human assumptions.

Why are you complaining that God created us in His image and likeness?

Heehee…because I have free will.

originally posted by whatevergirl
I agree with you–but will say that as I grow older, I realize that part of my seeking God, is to not always come away with answers to all of my questions. Leaving things to God…causes us to surrender. There is a peacefulness that comes with that…not necessarily in the beginning, though. lol

Agreed. But how would you explain the horrible nature of free will to someone who doesn’t enjoy the same depth of spiritual maturity as you do?

originally posted by jrabs
I also agree it’s just the opposite. I think giving us free will to love God is the biggest act of selflessness.

Ok, but how would you explain this to someone who contends that allowing human beings to commit atrocities just so love for God is “freely given” is a selfless act?

 

[whatevergirl]

Cari says:

Agreed. But how would you explain the horrible nature of free will to someone who doesn’t enjoy the same depth of spiritual maturity as you do?

Good question, Cari. I would explain that of course with free will, comes the temptation to sin…to do the wrong thing, from time to time. Some people, more than others. God did not create evil however…but with free will comes a propensity in all of us to commit evil. The horrible nature of free will…free will isn’t horrible, in an of itself…but it can lead to horrible choices…is that what u mean?

 

[Cari]

The free-will God grants us is consistent with our natures (i.e. the nature of personhood). The free-will is not so that God can have us freely choose to love Him, but rather for us to be lucky enough to *participate in His love, *which preexisted us, and everything. He gives us the opportunity to freely participate ( “to take part in”) His being, which is perfect and whole and without any lack what-so-ever.

So you’re contending that in order for us to enjoy this undeserved, incomprehensible gift of taking part in God’s love we HAD to be granted free will? That the free will isn’t given so WE could love God, but so that WE could be part of God’s love? So that without free will, we wouldn’t even be able to enjoy participating in God’s life?

What do you think?
VC

What do I think? I think this is the best answer I’ve gotten so far. One question- you say that free will is consistant with our natures, could you explain that? Could we not have been created to enjoy and participate in God’s love without free will?

 

[jrabs]

Agreed. But how would you explain the horrible nature of free will to someone who doesn’t enjoy the same depth of spiritual maturity as you do?

Ok, but how would you explain this to someone who contends that allowing human beings to commit atrocities just so love for God is “freely given” is a selfless act?

Why would you describe free will as horrible?

Some people do not have the same spiritual depth because they have opted not to go to church, opted not believe. That is also a choice they have made. The rest of us with spiritual depth must pray for those who have turned away.

Humans commit atrocities for various reasons - self love, greed, jealousy etc. They are personal choices made. For example, someone decides they love money more than they value their relationship with God. Perhaps they never bothered to put time in to cultivate a relationship with God. God lets us all decide what to put in and what to take from the relationship (as grace and gifts).

 

[Cari]

Good question, Cari. I would explain that of course with free will, comes the temptation to sin…to do the wrong thing, from time to time. Some people, more than others. God did not create evil however…but with free will comes a propensity in all of us to commit evil. The horrible nature of free will…free will isn’t horrible, in an of itself…but it can lead to horrible choices…is that what u mean?

God didn’t create evil, but He knew what would happen, the evil WE would be capable of, if He endowed us with it.

So then, why give it to us?

 

[Cari]

Why would you describe free will as horrible?

Oh! I know how to answer this one from my apologetics work:
Why wouldn’t you describe it as horrible?

Some people do not have the same spiritual depth because they have opted not to go to church, opted not believe. That is also a choice they have made. The rest of us with spiritual depth must pray for those who have turned away.

Totally agree. But WHY would God grant ANY of us free will, knowing what terrible things those of us who haven’t cultivated a spiritual depth would be capable of?

 

[Liberanosamalo]

God gives us the remedy for defying His love (which we do by using our intellect and free will in opposition to His loving will) It’s called the cross. That is love.

If we did not have free will and intellect, we would not be fully human. That is why drug abuse and drunkeness are so wrong. They take away and impair our free will and make us less than fully human. (If you doubt this, watch that David Hasselhoff tape where he’s drunk and babbling.)

God created our Humanity to reflect His divinity. Insofar as we do that, we are like Him. No, He does not need our love to exist. But we need His love to exist fully.

Those who defy God and commit evil with their free will and intellect do not prove the point that we should not have been given it. That was a precedent Adam and Eve set. What was God’s response? To destroy His creation? No. He exiled them in their imperfection. But He promised to send humans who used their intellect and free will in union with HIM to set an example and help to right the cosmic wrong.

Any simile I make using human examples isn’t an attempt to portray God as a human, but to show that even in our weak humanity we can see a glimpse of the divine. Those of us who have children… we know they will have intellect and free will. They will disobey and disappoint us. They may even beat each other up a few times. Does that stop us from having children? No. So if we in our mere humanity can have that love, how much more love does God have to create us?

 

[ricmat]

An excerpt from this article, which may give some perspective on the OPs question:

At the dawn of the modern world a young genius, Giovanni Pico della Mirandola (1463-1494), celebrated the surpassing dignity and greatness of man and did so in the spirit of the Renaissance (which should be understood as something Christian). In one place in his Oration on the Dignity of Man he lets God speak to man, reminding man as follows of his unique position in the world:

Adam, we give you no fixed place to live, no form that is peculiar to you, nor any function that is yours alone. According to your desires and judgment, you will have and possess whatever place to live, whatever form, and whatever functions you yourself choose. All other things have a limited and fixed nature prescribed and bounded by our laws. You, with no limit or no bound, may choose for yourself the limits and bounds of your nature. We have placed you at the world’s center so that you may survey everything else in the world. We have made you neither of heavenly nor of earthly stuff, neither mortal nor immortal, so that with free choice and dignity, you may fashion yourself into whatever form you choose. To you is granted the power of degrading yourself into the lower forms of life, the beasts, and to you is granted the power, contained in your intellect and judgment, to be reborn into the higher forms, the divine.

 

[whatevergirl]

God didn’t create evil, but He knew what would happen, the evil WE would be capable of, if He endowed us with it.

So then, why give it to us?

I’m afraid that we will have to ask God this, someday. lol But, speculating a bit…I’d have to say that He wanted us to come to Him–freely. But, I see your point. You are saying, that in some ways…God is selfish for giving this to us, knowing that we might make a mess of our lives. But, without free will…would you and I be faithful to God? Would we understand the depth of our love for Him? Would we understand His, for us? I will speak for me…and the answer is no. Through my sins…through my turning away from sin…through God’s grace in rescuing me from sin…do I fully understand His love. And really…I could never fully comprehend it…but as much as my human mind can fathom…

Ya know what I mean? Hopefully, it’s come across well? lol

 

[Cari]

God created our Humanity to reflect His divinity. Insofar as we do that, we are like Him. No, He does not need our love to exist. But we need His love to exist fully.

(I’m not picking on you, I’m just trying to clear this up)

We need our free will to be fully human. God created Humanity to reflect His Divinty.

Why? Why create human beings to require free will in order to reflect God’s Divinity? Why not create us to be glorious creatures incapable of commiting sin? Or, at the very least, why not create us as angels, who are given one act of free will, then cannot change it thereafter?