Was God selfish for granting us Free Will?

[Verbum_Caro]

Cari,

What I am focusing on is what I would characterize as a faulty assumption: the idea that God somehow seeks love from us. He doesn’t. Our love for God does not add anything to God, but it does add something to us.

I point this out because your orginal question seemed to paint a situation something like this: God gave us free will so He could be loved from us. But free-will causes a whole lot of suffering! How selfish of God to do that just to get love from us!

God didn’t give us free will so that He could be loved by us. He gave us free will so that we could love Him (and others!), and thereby participate in His Being.

When I said that free-will is consistent with our natures I mean only that it is fitting that a personal entity would have the capacity to incline its itself towards objects. I am not prepared to go so far as to say that a person, by definition, would require free will. But there certainly is something abhorent in the idea of a person without it. Furthermore, because one of the powers of the rational soul is the intellect and which apprehends “being” as “truth”, it is fitting that there be a corresponding power of the soul, the will, which apprehends “being” as “good”, and thereby inclines towards it.

Thoughts?
Vc

 

[Cari]

Adam, we give you no fixed place to live, no form that is peculiar to you, nor any function that is yours alone. According to your desires and judgment, you will have and possess whatever place to live, whatever form, and whatever functions you yourself choose. All other things have a limited and fixed nature prescribed and bounded by our laws. You, with no limit or no bound, may choose for yourself the limits and bounds of your nature. We have placed you at the world’s center so that you may survey everything else in the world. We have made you neither of heavenly nor of earthly stuff, neither mortal nor immortal, so that with free choice and dignity, you may fashion yourself into whatever form you choose. To you is granted the power of degrading yourself into the lower forms of life, the beasts, and to you is granted the power, contained in your intellect and judgment, to be reborn into the higher forms, the divine.

This is beautiful! But WHY would God grant this to humanity?

 

[jrabs]

Oh! I know how to answer this one from my apologetics work:
Why wouldn’t you describe it as horrible?

So then what is your answer?

Free will is not horrible at all. It is beautiful. For example - let’s say you are searching for a husband. Your father comes along and scouts out a man for you and tells him he must marry you or he will be killed. Would you want him for a husband?

Or would you rather have a man who loves you so much he would give his life for you, spends free time with you and just wants to talk and be with you?

Which makes for the better, stronger relationship? Why should God be any different in His desire for children?

Coercion never produced genuine love.

 

[Cari]

But, speculating a bit…I’d have to say that He wanted us to come to Him–freely. But, I see your point. You are saying, that in some ways…God is selfish for giving this to us, knowing that we might make a mess of our lives.

Yes, a mess of our lives, but more importantly, messes of other people’s lives.

But, without free will…would you and I be faithful to God? Would we understand the depth of our love for Him? Would we understand His, for us?

If He created us to, we would.

I will speak for me…and the answer is no. Through my sins…through my turning away from sin…through God’s grace in rescuing me from sin…do I fully understand His love. And really…I could never fully comprehend it…but as much as my human mind can fathom…

I completely agree, since I, too have been the unworthy recprient of God’s grace that rescued me from a wreck of a life. But, it could be viewed as God helping us out of a situation He allowed us to get into. No free will=no cesspools of a life to need help out of.

 

[whatevergirl]

So then what is your answer?

Free will is not horrible at all. It is beautiful. For example - let’s say you are searching for a husband. Your father comes along and scouts out a man for you and tells him he must marry you or he will be killed. Would you want him for a husband?

Or would you rather have a man who loves you so much he would give his life for you, spends free time with you and just wants to talk and be with you?

Which makes for the better, stronger relationship? Why should God be any different in His desire for children?

Coercion never produced genuine love.

awesome post, jrabs.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Why not create us to be glorious creatures incapable of commiting sin?

God did create those things – they are part of the lower order of creation – animals, plants, rocks, hydrogen atoms, stars, nebulae, etc.

Cari:

Or, at the very least, why not create us as angels, who are given one act of free will, then cannot change it thereafter?

Angels do have free will, and not just one act of free will. The difference, however, is that:

1. as purely spiritual beings they do not posess bodies, and do not learn of things through sense perception, they know things all at once. Therefore their wills correspond to this immediate act of knowing and are complete (they don’t need to change their minds as new information gets processed!)
2. their intellect and will are immensly more powerful and active than ours. They never missapprehend reality and never waver in their choices. Our mistakes of perception and and inconstancy of will are limitations of our corporeal nature (and also our fallen nature!).

So far from only having one act of free will, angels are CONSTANTLY willing, and always willing the same thing they have ever willed (unlike us). In fact, one could argue that angels use their free will to a much greater extent and perfection than we use ours.

What do you think Cari?
VC

 

[Cari]

So then what is your answer?

Free will is not horrible at all. It is beautiful. For example - let’s say you are searching for a husband. Your father comes along and scouts out a man for you and tells him he must marry you or he will be killed. Would you want him for a husband?

Or would you rather have a man who loves you so much he would give his life for you, spends free time with you and just wants to talk and be with you?

Which makes for the better, stronger relationship? Why should God be any different in His desire for children?

Coercion never produced genuine love.

Two things:
It’s not impossible to imagine that God COULD have created us to harbor perfect, pure love for Him in our hearts. We could have been created so that any other option wasn’t even concievable. That way, we wouldn’t have to be coerced into loving God, it would be in our very makeup. So why didn’t he create us like that? Why not create us so that Eden never ended, why not create us so that there wasn’t ever the chance for us to hurt ourselves and others.
As a parent, I certainly would love for my children to live in that “perfect world” where hurting themselves, others, and disobeying God wasn’t even on the radar.

Thing two:
I could go on and on about how many horrible things are committed because of free will. Reading the news is a depressing expenditure of time because of it. Yes, humans can make good, beautiful choices, but we also make ugly ones. If God could have eliminated choice in favor of love and beauty, why didn’t He?

 

[japhy]

So God has allowed us to commit the worst kinds of violence to one another so he can avoid the “cheap, sure thing”, and get a better version of love instead? He created us and our natures, why not create us to give Him the real deal without the free will?

If God created us with a free will, He did so with the knowledge that while some may choose to hate Him and do evil things, those who choose to love Him will do greater good things. If God created us without a free will, then He is the author of not only good deeds but evil deeds.

Either God permits evil so that a greater good may flourish all the more, or else He authors evil by creating persons with no control over their will who simply do the evil God created them to do.

You’re either accepting that God created the people who have abortions specifically so that they would have abortions… or that God created people who can choose to have abortions (and choose to stop having abortions, repent, believe in the Gospel, and follow Christ).

I’ll choose free will.

 

[jrabs]

Thing two:
I could go on and on about how many horrible things are committed because of free will. Reading the news is a depressing expenditure of time because of it. Yes, humans can make good, beautiful choices, but we also make ugly ones. If God could have eliminated choice in favor of love and beauty, why didn’t He?

Seems you are fixated on the ugly choices and horrible things. There are many beautiful things that people do daily as a result of free will. The world is not all horror and depression and ugly.

I pray that God opens your eyes and heart to see that the world does offer beauty through people. There are many wonderful and loving people of faith - offering all they have back to God.

Who would you want living in your home for all of eternity? Someone forced to live there or someone who absolutely loves you and is worthy of being in your house? Heaven is God’s home and He wants to surround His home with love.

 

[whatevergirl]

Yes, a mess of our lives, but more importantly, messes of other people’s lives.

If He created us to, we would.

I completely agree, since I, too have been the unworthy recprient of God’s grace that rescued me from a wreck of a life. But, it could be viewed as God helping us out of a situation He allowed us to get into. No free will=no cesspools of a life to need help out of.

No free will also = no voluntary love. Involuntary love is not love at all…it’s actually better known as… fear.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

japhy, thats a good point!

oh, and

I’ll choose free will.

made me chuckle. . .

 

[ricmat]

As a parent, I certainly would love for my children to live in that “perfect world” where hurting themselves, others, and disobeying God wasn’t even on the radar.

And in that case, would there be any joy in your heart when your children did good things? Would they have joy in their own hearts when they overcome temptation and do the right thing?

For there to be joy, there needs to be a possibility of pain. For love, there needs to be the possibility of not-love.

 

[whatevergirl]

There is also something mind boggling and breathtaking, as to God loving ME…despite my bad choices.

 

[Cari]

Whew!

Thanks everyone!

I’ve found that this place is awesome for finding answers to most questions, if posed in the proper way.
For example, I’ve come across questions from non-believing friends of mine to which I have no answer. If you go through and read threads along the lines of “I need to answer person X about question Y, help!” one will get some good, but also some bland and not-so-usefull answers.
However, if the question is posed from the viewpoint of the OP, answers get much more relevant.

For example, with my question (which is one several members of my family struggle with), it’s not very useful to tell me not to ask, that such things are for God alone. It’s not useful to dismiss parts of the question without addressing WHY they should be dismissed.

What I found most helpful were the following:

• patience (thanks all! how annoying to converse with someone who finds it necessary to cut-and-quote every little bit of your last post! Sorry!)
• identifying errors in thinking (thanks VC! It was that insight that was the breakthrough for how I’ll discuss this with others)
• reforming and shaping the discussion based on correct thinking.
• not assuming anything about the poster’s religious background, other than what was revealed (don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of citing the CCC, but if you’re not dealing with a Catholic, it’s not the most effective path)

Sometimes, you just have to ask the hard questions.
So here’s what I’ve come away with-
God did not endow us with free will so that WE could choose to love him in a more meaningful way. God endowed us with free will in order for us to participate in a unique way in His Life. Had he created us to reflect His Divinity in a way that left no room for choice, we would be something akin to stars, or irises, or gemstones. It is through our capacity for reason, intellect, and observation that our status is elevated, but this also ushers in the possibility of choice, and free will.
This elevation of humanity was not for God’s benefit (who can add to God?) but for OURS. This gift could be likened to fire. It is for our benefit, to make our life better, but can be used for harm. It is precicely because God loved us so much that he gave us the chance to participate in His life in a way the rest of creation can’t. He grants us grace, came to us as the Incarnation, and strengthens us through the sacraments in order to help us navigate past the harmful possibilities of free will.

Ok, what did I leave out?
EDIT: The very word “participate” means there are choices involved. So the very gift of participation in God’s life, and His plan means choice- free will- would HAVE to be involved.

 

[japhy]

japhy, thats a good point!

oh, and “I’ll choose free will.” made me chuckle. . .

I have the charism of wit (at times).

 

[Cari]

For there to be joy, there needs to be a possibility of pain. For love, there needs to be the possibility of not-love.

uh-oh- if God is Love, than doesn’t this assume that God needs “not-love” in order to exist?

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Cari, it looks great.
Thanks for the discussion, and the intersting original post!

VC

 

[Liberanosamalo]

“Two things:
It’s not impossible to imagine that God COULD have created us to harbor perfect, pure love for Him in our hearts. We could have been created so that any other option wasn’t even concievable. That way, we wouldn’t have to be coerced into loving God, it would be in our very makeup. So why didn’t he create us like that?”

He did create us like that. Adam and Eve. He gave them intellect and free will. They were not coerced into loving Him. And after He created them, knowing full well what their choices would be, He still stood back and said “It is good.” He sees the big picture.

Then He created that person with perfect pure love for him again. To her no other option was conceivable. And her obedience to His will, and her intellect and free consent of her will to His produced our Salvation. She is our example. Whether we follow it is our free choice.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

“uh-oh- if God is Love, than doesn’t this assume that God needs “not-love” in order to exist?”

No. God’s existence is never dependent upon a negation. God is love. Wherever there is a lack of love, there is a lack of God. But that doesn’t make Him stop existing.