Was Harald Camping On to Something Else?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Uzziah1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Prayer_Warrior said:
I have heard it suggested many times that when Jesus cried out those words on the Cross, that was when the Father “separated” from Jesus because He had “become sin”. For those who believe in such a suggestion, I would simply ask how such a belief would not make a person a pagan who believes in more than one God. After all, if they separated, they became two Gods, right? It simply undermines the truth of the Oneness of the Trinity.
Click to expand...
No, it doesn’t, but it may, if handled incorrectly (and it may not be possible to handle it correctly) undermine the hypostatic union, as the effect would be effected through the manipulation of the hypostatic union, not through separating the Son from the Father. However, treading these grounds is dangerous, even for those defending that Jesus was not separated from God, as one will almost, if logic is followed, inevitably fall into a heresy far worse - either denying the impassibility of God and charging him with change or feeling, or arguing that the Father suffered on the Cross. This was something that took six ecumenical councils to straighten out, and was never fully understood.
 
adrift said:
Do you know that Valtorta’s work also has an imprimatur from BISHOP ROMAN DANYLAK ?

An nihil obstat is not a Church Approvel. See here

I wish to make it clear. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with the books. What I am saying is that they have not been declared as being supernatural in origin. In time, they might be but that time is not here as of today they are unapproved.
Click to expand...
How could a Bishop put an imprimatur on a book that has been repeatedly condemned and forbidden by the Church, and which was on the Index when it was dissolved (although, according to the Holy Father, it retains its moral force)? Bl Catherine Emmerich’s never has, and Ven. Jesus of Mary’s was forbidden and rehabilitated several times in the 17th century. (And, when I said I saw “nihil obstat”, I mean I saw the apparatus - nihil obstat and a Bishop’s signature; I don’t believe a book can have the former without the latter, and I am fully aware of what it means, which isn’t much - even the New American Bible got the full apparatus thrice over and even a Papal blessing *, and it’s nearly as dangerous and insulting to the Faith as is Valtortism; the NJBC has imprimatur [granted by its own author, nonetheless], and is absolutely odious to the Faith and to anyone who has a belief in God or a Bible that actually contains a divine message, and not just the ramblings of desert nomads.)

I wish to make it clear that I am saying that there is something very, very wrong with the “Poem of the Man-God”, and one doesn’t have to look any further than the title to see the first part of it: Christ is not Man-god, he is God-man; not man become God, but God become man.*
 
Mintaka said:
The idea that the Father ever hated or refused to hear the Son is heresy.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One God in Three Persons. They have always been One, they will always be One; they are One eternally. God is Love. God does not shun Himself.
Click to expand...
That was my internal reaction, Mintaka.

But I have also learned to not throw around the word “heresy” like candy at a parade.

For example, even up until the present moment, Jews declare the Christian idea of a Trinity, itself, to be a blasphemous abomination of the One God idea – “heresy.”

And, no matter what, as you said that word, “heresy,” which makes so many of my fellow Catholics here feel so superior, your thinking stopped. What was happening in Christ’s head as He said those words? Why are those words IN Scripture!!! How could God the Son, with perfectly perfect comprehension of everything, in perfect philosphical union with God the Father in the same Trinity, feel “forsaken”?

To put it another way, Why aren’t Jesjus’ Own words “heresy,” as you say?

When I posted the question, I did it to see how other Catholics here could answer the question, to see if they could help me rise above the level of “just plain stumped.”
 
Question: Was He in screaming horrible pain and not mindful of the fact that His words conformed perfectly to prophecy, or was He calmly reciting Bible verses?
Click to expand...
I dunno; what do you think? Was He God incarnate, or just a fallible human reacting to pain? If He is God, then He was indeed “mindful”, and did not feel forsaken.

If He was only human, well, when He said this, He had been hanging from spikes through His hands/wrists for about three hours. The only way to take a breath large enough to cry out in a loud voice (Mt 27:46, Mk 15:34) would be to lift Himself up by putting all his weight on the spike through His feet.

Have you ever had a broken rib? I have, and I learned very quickly not to take a deep breath, for anything. And I am far from divine.
 
Intense pain and fear? That’s exactly the right time to recite stuff you’ve memorized.

This is why your parents make you memorize prayers. You may not be in any state to think of a beautiful improvised prayer (other than perhaps telling God at the top of your lungs that it hurts, or calling on His Name), but you can say something you learned as a kid. Recordings of people in danger often demonstrate this.

Being a geek, I know a lot of people who come out with the lines from Dune beginning “Fear is the mindkiller…” Heck, I’ve done it myself under stress, though it’s definitely less effective than Shakespeare or prayer. 🙂

If you’ve ever known a Jewish person from a religious background, you know that a lot of them throw out the Sh’ma or a psalm if stuff gets bad. Jesus was just doing the normal Jewish human thing, albeit with added divine, prophetic purpose. There’s no reason to think it unlikely, even if Jesus were just some Jewish prophet guy, that he’d recite one of the psalms about how God is gonna make this come out right.
 
I’ve been known to recite the Bene Gesserit creed myself. Much of the book (or series, if you consider the entire thing to be “Dune” and not just the first one, as some purists do) is ironic to an Arabic-speaker, as nearly every Fremen word (and many others) in the book are either direct borrowings from Arabic or Islamic theology (“bi la kaifa”, for example), with very loose or incorrect translations, or mangled Arabic words.
 
The Poem of the Man-God is in actuality fully Church-approved. For complete details, check out this free research document, which can be downloaded here:

Poem of the Man-God Research Document (PDF)

The trailer for it is here:

Poem of the Man-God Research Document Trailer

I wrote this e-book about Maria Valtorta and the Poem of the Man-God which www.mariavaltortawebring.com has hosted on their home page for download and Douay-Rheims Bible Online (which has 70,000 visitors a year) has also hosted on their website.

This e-book is a comprehensive and well-researched guide to everything a Catholic needs to know about Maria Valtorta’s writing: its importance, its history, its ecclesiastical status, how it compares to other revelations, the 14 proofs of its divine origin, and its critics and defenses.

This free e-book is the result of hundreds of hours of research over 6 months, utilizing a tremendous number of Internet and printed sources. To give you a taste of its level of depth and scholarship: it has 902 references/endnotes.

Some chapters in this e-book:

“The Position of the Popes, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (the Holy Office), and the Vatican Newspaper on the Poem of the Man-God”

“Timeline of Major Events of the Poem of the Man-God’s Ecclesiastical Approval”

“The Most Notable Critics and Critical Articles Against the Poem of the Man-God and Answers to Those Articles (Refutations)”

Some things you may have not been aware of:

Saint Padre Pio and at least two spiritual children of his approve the Poem of the Man-God. In 1967 (a year before Padre Pio’s death), a long-time spiritual daughter of his, Mrs. Elisa Lucchi, asked him in Confession: “Father, I have heard mention of Maria Valtorta’s books. Do you advise me to read them?” Saint Padre Pio responded: “I don’t advise you to – I order you to!” There is also documented eyewitness accounts by several trustworthy sources that Saint Padre Pio approved and encouraged the reading of Maria Valtorta’s works, and that he has had mystical experiences with Maria Valtorta during the time when they were both alive. All of this is documented and described in the e-book.

Blessed Gabriel Allegra, O.F.M. was beatified by Pope Benedict XVI on September 29, 2012 and Blessed Gabriel Allegra was an outspoken and avid long-time supporter of Maria Valtorta and spent the latter years of his life studying, promoting, and defending the Poem of the Man-God (Maria Valtorta’s major work). You can read his testimony online here:

Blessed Gabriel Allegra’s Critiques, Notes, and Letters on Maria Valtorta’s The Poem of the Man-God

Notable actions of the Popes regarding the Poem of the Man-God include:

A high-ranking prelate personally handed Pope Pius XII a 12-volume typewritten copy of the Poem of the Man-God in 1947. After these volumes were evaluated by the Pope for a year, he granted a special audience with the three Servites of Mary in charge of this work. At this audience, as Bishop of Rome and the Vicar of Christ, Pope Pius XII gave the Poem of the Man-God an official imprimatur and commanded them to publish it “just as it is”. Cardinal Edouard Gagnon, writing to the Maria Valtorta Research Center from the Vatican on October 31, 1987, referred to Pope Pius XII’s action as: “The kind of official imprimatur granted before witnesses by the Holy Father in 1948, an Official Imprimatur of the Supreme Authority of the Church”

Pope Paul VI showed obvious signs of favor towards the Poem by sending a letter of congratulations and blessing to world-renowned Mariologist, Fr. Gabriel Roschini, for his book The Virgin Mary in the Writings of Maria Valtorta. Furthermore, Archbishop Pasquale Macchi, Private Secretary of Pope Paul VI, said to Fr. Corrado M. Berti, O.S.M., in an hour long interview in 1963: “When His Holiness (Paul VI) was Archbishop of Milan, he read one of the books of The Poem of the Man-God. He told me how he appreciated it, and had me send the complete work to the library of the diocesan seminary.”

Pope John Paul II approved the decree of a miracle of a world-renowned theologian who was an outspoken and avid long-time supporter of Maria Valtorta and who spent the latter years of his life studying, promoting, and defending the Poem of the Man-God: Blessed Gabriel M. Allegra, O.F.M. Furthermore, according to Cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz, the secretary of Pope John Paul II, the Pope was a reader of Maria Valtorta. The cardinal testifies to having often seen one of the volumes of The Gospel as Revealed to Me [a.k.a. *The Poem of the Man-God] on the Pope’s bedside table.

Only the first edition was put on the Index of Forbidden Books the same day as St. Faustina’s writings were. Fr. Marco Giraudo, O.P., Commissioner of the Holy Office, later approved the publication of the 2nd edition of the Poem of the Man-God in 1961, stating to Fr. Berti: “We have no objection to your publishing this 2nd edition. We will see how the work is welcomed.”

Believe it or not, her revelations have been proven by multiple areas of science to be 99.6% historically accurate as is shown in the e-book.

After the Holy Bible and the most sacred perennial books of the Catholic Faith (the Summa Theologica, etc.), there is perhaps no greater book that exists in the world today than the Poem of the Man-God, and I think it is truly impossible for any person of good will to not only highly benefit from reading it; but I would go so far as to say that any person of good will who reads it will almost certainly have his life changed profoundly in some way.
 
adrift said:
These books have been declared by the Church as fiction. EWTN has this

What ever you may believe it is unapproved and because of that it is a banned subject here.
Click to expand...
"Liborum Prohibitorum Index is a list of ‘forbidden’ books produced by the Vatican. It was discontinued in 1966. That included most of the works of André Gide and SATRA, and some works of Francis Bacon, Flaubert, writing science such as Galileo and Copernicus (presumably changed later, once they realized the earth, indeed around the sun) and the political work of Jeremy Bentham, among many others. However, “Mein Kampf” (1924) of Adolf Hitler was never banned strangely, similarly a large number of rather surprising omissions. There are many common devotions that would not exist today had certain members of the Vatican got their way.

That index is at best contradictory and unreliable. There is a lot of untruths and lies spread about these books. I have read them and can attest to the fact that there is nothing whatsoever contained within that has contradicted or harmed my faith in any way. Quite the opposite in fact. So Cardinal Ratz wasn’t a fan that doesn’t mean anything to me. He hasn’t pronounced on them as pope. All the church has pronounced is that there is nothing to suggest that the books are of supernatural origin. It is not forbidden for a catholic to read them and to suggest such is simply untrue. John Paul II approved and that’s good enough for me. I would suggest you get your facts straight before you take it upon yourself to ban anything.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top