Was I "non-compliant?"

[msproule]

Detroit Sue:

The confusing thing to me is that our regional bishop was officiating, who is a Canon lawyer. Does not the GIRM prescribe kneeling after the Sanctus until after the Final Doxology?

Are there kneelers in the parish? I have been involved in a similar situation at a parish I often attend in which I was the only person kneeling. I contacted the Detroit Office on the Liturgy and I was told that His Eminence Cardinal Maida has allowed for standing in those parishes where kneelers are not currently part of the architecture.

I believe this to be a very liberal interpretation of the “or some other good reason” statement in the GIRM (43). Reluctantly, I now comply with these instructions because the GIRM grants the Bishop authority to decide what constitutes such reasons. Apparently, unity in the congregation is less important than unity in the Church.

The situation could be worse. Since the publication of the new GIRM, most of the faithful at least bow profoundly during the Consecration.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

Marie:

You were not non compliant as you say but I do wonder about your reasoning a little bit. It’s hard to tell from a post but you sound very self righteous which is probably not the correct impression. At least I hope not. Forgive me in advance if it is not your stance, but then I have met many people who do act and think that way. They work counter productive to actually giving a good example to others by their pointing out to others that those who do not do as they do are not properly following Christ. Those people you are trying to witness to by good example will not learn by critisim. An example does not need words just a cheerful giver and a quiet witness. God can do much with a cheerful giver. He can do nothing with one who is too bound up in their own self.

If you wish to wear a veil, kneel etc. to honor Christ that is excellent. If you feel the need to raise up a revolution to support your views then I think you maybe a bit non compliant. There is no grace to be gained by being a grumpy giver. No one is going to learn anything by exhibiting a one up manship stance. Other than that I think you did just fine.

As long as you post it just to vent then I concure it is proper as long as you do not take the hard boiled sounding attitude to the Church with you.

I love communion rails, veils, and reverence. But I loath the snotty attitude on all side that seems to prevail Catholic thinking now days. Probably because being Catholic is deeper than just the physical appearance or it was prior to the last 30 years of revolutionary thought we are stuck with today.

I guess it did sound a little “self-righteous,” but the truth of the matter is I felt odd. It’s hard not to give in and “do as the Romans do,” when it is clearly wrong. There were kneelers in the church, so I used them. I have covered my head for years, so that was not a problem for me. It was surprising to me when I extended my hand at the sign of peace, and people looked away from me. I was not there to show off. The regional bishop and the pastor both know me, and know my spirituality. It was no problem for them. Even in my husband’s uber-liberal parish, they are at least *charitable. *But then again, they kneel during the Consecration. Everybody in that parsish held hands during the Our Father, yet recoiled from me. What does that say about us?

 

[mercygate]

Detroit Sue:

The confusing thing to me is that our regional bishop was officiating, who is a Canon lawyer. Does not the GIRM prescribe kneeling after the Sanctus until after the Final Doxology? They also paraded out the Book of Gospels at the end of Mass, too. This parish needs my husband as a deacon for his orthodoxy, yet I left there feeling like I needed to go to Mass.

If the pastor wants to turn the parish around, and if your husband and you both have the starch to be gentle with people who have been fed two decades of the kind of drivel you describe, this could be a splendid opportunity for you. In the Episcopal Church, the Society of the Holy Cross (an organization of “catholic” priests) has a policy of trying to place these good men where they are often the least welcome – but the most needed.

 

[CD4]

moira:

Detroit Sue, You just keep on being “non-compliant”! I always kneel at the Consecration, too.
A couple of weeks ago someone at Mass told me that I looked like a Jewish mother because I was wearing a chapel veil.

Not a bad thing to be…Guess Who else was a Jewish mother?

 

[Chris_Jacobsen]

You were compliant. The law of the universal Church is that you kneel during the Consecration. In the United States it is the law that you kneel from the the end of the Sanctus through the end of the Great Amen.

Obedience to the laws of the Church is more important than obedience to the laws of the government. But the members of that congregation probably obey neither the laws of the Church nor the laws of the state. They, instead, do whatever they please.

 

[Prometheum_x]

Chris Jacobsen:

You were compliant. The law of the universal Church is that you kneel during the Consecration. In the United States it is the law that you kneel from the the end of the Sanctus through the end of the Great Amen.

Obedience to the laws of the Church is more important than obedience to the laws of the government. But the members of that congregation probably obey neither the laws of the Church nor the laws of the state. They, instead, do whatever they please.

I think that should be rephrased to “the law of the Latin Church”. I have limited experience with Eastern churches, but my understanding is that they do not kneel during the Consecration.

As for kneeling being the proper position of reverence before God, I am a little curious why that is the case. Is that universally true, or is that the most reverent position for those with a particular cultural background?

Perhaps it would be more reverent to lie face down on the ground. . .

 

[Marie]

Detroit Sue:

I guess it did sound a little “self-righteous,” but the truth of the matter is I felt odd. It’s hard not to give in and “do as the Romans do,” when it is clearly wrong. There were kneelers in the church, so I used them. I have covered my head for years, so that was not a problem for me. It was surprising to me when I extended my hand at the sign of peace, and people looked away from me. I was not there to show off. The regional bishop and the pastor both know me, and know my spirituality. It was no problem for them. Even in my husband’s uber-liberal parish, they are at least *charitable. *But then again, they kneel during the Consecration. Everybody in that parsish held hands during the Our Father, yet recoiled from me. What does that say about us?

HMMM! It says then the parish is the problem and not you. I would guess it hurt your feelings and that is normal so -You were not showing out. I guess I am just old enough that I don’t sweat the small stuff anymore and don’t care if people like my purple hat or the way I kneel. I also no longer pay that much attention to what others are doing so I just block it out. Takes time and practice and age…LOL! As for their not wanting to hold your hand…That would have tickled me no end. I hate that goofy hand holding! Giggle! For me that would have been a wonderful thing. I would have thanked them!!!

 

[mercygate]

Prometheum_x:

As for kneeling being the proper position of reverence before God, I am a little curious why that is the case. Is that universally true, or is that the most reverent position for those with a particular cultural background?

In the New Testament there are 14 references to people kneeling in prayer or kneeling in the presence of Jesus to ask a favor of him. The clincher is Luke 22:41: “And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and knelt down and prayed.”

This doesn’t negate the Byzantine custom of kneeling only as a sign of penitence. It’s just different. But if Jesus knelt to pray, it’s kind of silly to make a riot over it. I’ll stand in a Byzantine Church and kneel (whether there are kneelers or not), thanking God that I still can for as long as I am able in a Latin Church.