Was I wrong, and what to do now

[corvidae]

To start off with I want to say that I was a volunteer at a local youth group. I have just been banned. I want to give a little heads up on why I was banned, I want (name removed by moderator)ut on whether I was wrong, and what I should do to try and continue helping kids find their faith.

I was being a silent bystander because I was asked not to speak up anymore in youth group, because it prevented the kids from answering. At the end of the youth group, I sent an email to the head youth minister saying that I did not mean to offend, but some of her comments I found disturbing.

The first was that she talked about not killing animals as falling under the fifth commandment.

The second was a really bad explanation of transubstaniation. She said that just as water can be liquid or solid but still be water, so the wine changes but still looks like wine.
I said in my email that this was completely backward, it would be something that is not water, having all the properties, looks etc, of water.

The third was in describing recieving the Eucharist she talked on how some people miss out on recieving the blood because they have family history of alcoholism. I pointed out that the BODY, BLOOD, SOUL, and DIVINITY, are present under both species.

I want to point out that this was not a public condemnation, I tried my best to make her feel not as though she was being attacked, but rather that I was concerned that falsehoods may slip in.

My question is, was I wrong in pointing these out, was I looking out for truth, or was I nitpicking.
Second, what do you all think I can and should do to try and keep on working with the youth.

A lone Raven

 

[Pryority7]

Scripture is clear that we are to correct one another in love. I don’t see a problem with what you presented or how you presented it. People need to calm down and not take things of this nature so hard. I sounded like a sincere attempt to explain the Eucharist and the commandments to young people who may have a hard time understanding the concepts.

 

[TimOliv]

To start off with I want to say that I was a volunteer at a local youth group. I have just been banned. I want to give a little heads up on why I was banned, I want (name removed by moderator)ut on whether I was wrong, and what I should do to try and continue helping kids find their faith.

I was being a silent bystander because I was asked not to speak up anymore in youth group, because it prevented the kids from answering. At the end of the youth group, I sent an email to the head youth minister saying that I did not mean to offend, but some of her comments I found disturbing.

The first was that she talked about not killing animals as falling under the fifth commandment.

The second was a really bad explanation of transubstaniation. She said that just as water can be liquid or solid but still be water, so the wine changes but still looks like wine.
I said in my email that this was completely backward, it would be something that is not water, having all the properties, looks etc, of water.

The third was in describing recieving the Eucharist she talked on how some people miss out on recieving the blood because they have family history of alcoholism. I pointed out that the BODY, BLOOD, SOUL, and DIVINITY, are present under both species.

I want to point out that this was not a public condemnation, I tried my best to make her feel not as though she was being attacked, but rather that I was concerned that falsehoods may slip in.

My question is, was I wrong in pointing these out, was I looking out for truth, or was I nitpicking.
Second, what do you all think I can and should do to try and keep on working with the youth.

A lone Raven

A common problem in churches is people making up their own theology as they go. Perhaps, to her, the best way she can explain transubstantiation is her water analogy. For the rest of us, it seems foolish. The killing animals thing seems at first glance to be her interjecting personal beliefs into catechism. Let me ask you this, did she mean killing animals for any reason? For example, does the fifth commandment (acccording to her) prohibit the killing of animals for food or was she simply saying it is a sin to mow down your neighbors dog because it barks too much? These are issues that need clarification.

E-mails are typically a horrible way to convey things as delicate as this, simply because it is to the reader’s discretion what “tone of voice” they read it with in their head. What may have been a heartfelt and sincere concern to you could have been received as sarcastic and challenging.

That being said, based on the limited knowledge I have of this situation, I would say, in my personal opinion, you were not completely right, but not completely wrong. I think this is really a no-fault type of thing. A misunderstanding between two people.

 

[LSK]

I would like some clarification, just so that I have a more complete idea of what is going on.

Were you a member of the Youth Ministry Team at your Parish?

Did the ‘banning’ have the ok of the Pastor?

Look, I know how difficult it can be to take criticism. Sometimes, especially when someone is trying to lead a group, it feels as though you are getting smacked for every small thing you say. Some of the things you described, of course, are not ‘small’ (The Eucharist, Church teaching on stewardship of animals, etc) however I always caution people that what they HEAR may not been exactly what the person SAID.

If you are in a position to approach the pastor for some spiritual guidance on this issue I would make an appointment with him. I would not talk to anyone in the youth group about it or with any of the other parishonners (spelling?) until you have met with the pastor. Continue to pray, examine your conscience and ask God to reveal to you what you SHOULD have said (if anything). Then say every morning a great prayer I used during a difficult period at work:
“Lord, please re-seed the ground where you have planted me so that I may start anew with my co-workers”.

You might need to change the wording a little to suit your situation but I will tell YOU a miracle of healing happened where I work because of that prayer.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

To start off with I want to say that I was a volunteer at a local youth group. I have just been banned. I want to give a little heads up on why I was banned, I want (name removed by moderator)ut on whether I was wrong, and what I should do to try and continue helping kids find their faith.

I was being a silent bystander because I was asked not to speak up anymore in youth group, because it prevented the kids from answering. At the end of the youth group, I sent an email to the head youth minister saying that I did not mean to offend, but some of her comments I found disturbing.

The first was that she talked about not killing animals as falling under the fifth commandment.

The second was a really bad explanation of transubstaniation. She said that just as water can be liquid or solid but still be water, so the wine changes but still looks like wine.
I said in my email that this was completely backward, it would be something that is not water, having all the properties, looks etc, of water.

The third was in describing recieving the Eucharist she talked on how some people miss out on recieving the blood because they have family history of alcoholism. I pointed out that the BODY, BLOOD, SOUL, and DIVINITY, are present under both species.

I want to point out that this was not a public condemnation, I tried my best to make her feel not as though she was being attacked, but rather that I was concerned that falsehoods may slip in.

My question is, was I wrong in pointing these out, was I looking out for truth, or was I nitpicking.
Second, what do you all think I can and should do to try and keep on working with the youth.

A lone Raven

You not incorrect in your concern with what was said. However I would never “correct” someone in a public manner. I would have sent a email after the youth session. I suggest that you make an appointment with the pastor and discuss the matter,

 

[corvidae]

As for the not killing animals- “I haven’t killed any people, I haven’t killed any animals, I am ok”-
Basically it was worded like an examination of conscience

Second, I am not officially part of the youth ministry team, and I was asked not to return because the head youth minister said she needed support rather than criticism.

As I said, I was just a volunteer, but I am also passionate about the truth, and do not want falsehoods to be taught, even if they are unintentional, and even if I am not teaching them.

A lone Raven

p.s.- I believe that the youth minister honestly believes she has done the right thing, and I do not fault her for it, but I want to know if my actions were wrong, and what I can do now

 

[corvidae]

I did send an email after the youth group, I want to make a point that this was not in front of everyone, I am not trying to usurp her authority or anything like that.

I sent a private email message

 

[dhgray]

If you correct someone in the church (especially an elder or leader) be sure to include scripture, CCC, or other doctorine refereneces. ALSO as SFO stated, don’t correct in a public forum.

Other than that, I think you are completely right in speaking up on anything that is being taught incorrectly.

Keep up the great work.

 

[Loy]

How old is this youth group? It’s possible you might have been a little nitpicky, because explaining some theological concepts to children can be difficult. For example, St. Patrick’s comparison of the Trinity to a three-leaf shamrock is quite defective when you think about it.

However, I don’t understand why you’ve been banned. This was a private communication, and I assume it was respectful and not abusive. If so, this person is too sensitive. If she can’t handle constructive criticism, perhaps she shouldn’t be in a position of authority. Have a talk with your pastor.

 

[corvidae]

The youth-group is high school aged kids. There is also one for junior high kids, but that was over and the junior high kids had gone home by the time these things were said.

I think that high schoolers are old enough to understand deep concepts, even deep concepts of theology. I also think that many people take what their leaders say as correct, and if someone later disproves something a leader or a teacher said, it may call into question all that the leader said or thought.

To clarify, as to why I was banned, I had been “suspended” before for inappropriate comments. I was sharing my personal experiance with drunkeness (not myself being drunk, but those around me) to someone who was headed to college and scared to encounter drunkeness. I had hoped that my story would help this person deal with any encounters in their own life.
( I talked to this person after youth group, and alone, not in front of others, nor did I invite others into the conversation. It was overheard by the youth minister and deemed inappropriate to share personal stories. I guess I should have stuck with vagueness)

After I returned, I was silent, as was requested of me. However, this time I spoke out privately, and the youth minister may feel that I will return to my old ways of talking to kids about things that are too deep for them.

As I said before, I do not blame her for banning me, I just want to know if what I did was wrong.

A lone Raven

 

[Loy]

I think that high schoolers are old enough to understand deep concepts, even deep concepts of theology.

Agreed.

Again, I’m assuming that your email was respectful. If you’ve accurately described the events as they occured, it doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong.

 

[Strider]

You mention that you were asked not to speak up any more because it “prevented the kids from answering.”
This implies some prior friction with this woman.
If what you have related is accurate, you have done absolutely nothing wrong. The only thing I would have done differently is to speak to the woman personally and privately, but since you have the exchange of e-mails, maybe your way was better.
I would make an appointment to speak with the pastor. Many, if not most, pastors, are simply too busy to monitor all that goes on in their parishes.
High schoolers are more than capable of handling these concepts on a higher level. I know; I taught high schoool for eight years. They deserve proper catechesis.
Of the three points you wrote her about, the only question I have is the context in which she mentioned receiving the Precious Blood. If she said that it was a more complete “symbol,” of the Body of Christ, that’s one thing, but if she implied some sort of “deficiency” in recieving either the Host or the Blood alone, a correction must be made.
I would make hard copies of the e-mails, make an appointment with the pastor to discuss this and bring them along.
If the priest is unconcerned, the bishop may be your next stop. The last thing the poriest should want is the “firing” of volunteers.
If there is a personality conflict between you and this woman, maybe you could work with another group.

 

[corvidae]

Here is the exact email:
you can judge my words

This email is not to make you feel bad or dog you, it is just to make you
think. While at youth group I heard several things that disturbed me, I did

not want to bring them up because they were not the focus of the youth
group, but they still need to be addressed.

First of all- thou shall not kill

your quote was I haven’t killed any people, or any animals, so I am alright
if animals fall under that commandment you need to give up meat pretty darn
quick huh

Second- just like water can be solid or liquid, so what looks like wine can
be the Blood.
This is exactly backwards. Waters accidents changed, but the water remained

the same. The Holy Eucharist is different, the substance is changed, but it

still looks taste, and acts like wine.

Third- this may just have been oversight, but whether one recieves the Host,

or the Chalice, they recieve the BODY, BLOOD,SOUL,and DIVINITY of Christ.
One does not miss out on anything by not recieving from the chalice. This
may seem like splitting hairs, but this was a major component of the Hussite

heresy. It seems when you were describing your friend, you implied she
missed out on something by not recieving the chalice. The only thing she
misses out on is a historical symbol, the apostles recieved under both
forms, so we are able to, we do not miss out on anything by not doing it.

I hope this doesn’t offend, but I was told I was not allowed to talk at
youth group, and I wanted to bring this to your attention.

A lone Raven

p.s.- that is the exact email, you can judge it, not just what I said on what I said

 

[corvidae]

bump

 

[Loy]

Here’s some food for thought:

This email is not to make you feel bad or dog you, it is just to make you
think.

Starting off a conversation this way can only lead downhill. Saying, for example, “I don’t mean to be rude” signals that you’re about to say something rude. The person will read rudeness into your email even if there is none there.

Also the way you used “make you think” in this email has some bad connotations that you probably didn’t intend. It implies that she is stupid, but now you’re going to force her to think.

corvidae:

While at youth group I heard several things that disturbed me, I did

not want to bring them up because they were not the focus of the youth
group,

What you said here is good. You said how these things made you “feel”, as opposed to direct allegations that she was wrong. That makes it seem like less of a personal attack and more of an interpersonal discussion.

corvidae:

if animals fall under that commandment you need to give up meat pretty darn
quick huh

This sounds smart-alecky.

corvidae:

This
may seem like splitting hairs, but this was a major component of the Hussite

heresy.

It’s best to keep it simple. When you start to compare what she said to some major Church controversies in the past, you load her down with a lot of unnecessary weight. She’s not starting up a heretical movement.

Church teaching says that Christ is fully present in either species. That’s all that needs to be said.

Personally, I think your email might have seemed only a **little **disrespectful, but she overreacted. Substantively, your criticisms were valid, but the way you worded them could have been handled better.

Ask her if she was offended and apologize. She needs no further correction on the matters you addressed. Weigh carefully whether you want to continue working with her, and if so, ask her what you can do to get back on the team.

If you don’t want to work with her, bide your time and wait until another opportunity to work in youth ministry presents itself. If there are more serious issues that you haven’t brought up in this thread, discuss them with your pastor.

God bless and prosper you!

 

[jemfinch]

Second- just like water can be solid or liquid, so what looks like wine can
be the Blood.
This is exactly backwards. Waters accidents changed, but the water remained

the same. The Holy Eucharist is different, the substance is changed, but it

still looks taste, and acts like wine.

I’ve used the water example myself. The point generally isn’t to give a situation entirely analogous to transubstantiation, but to lay the foundation for explaining why, after transubstantiation, the accidents remain while the substance has changed. It lays the foundation for showing the fundamental difference between substance and accidents, a difference that’s sometimes hard to make people understand without an example such as water.

Third- this may just have been oversight, but whether one recieves the Host,

or the Chalice, they recieve the BODY, BLOOD,SOUL,and DIVINITY of Christ.
One does not miss out on anything by not recieving from the chalice. This
may seem like splitting hairs, but this was a major component of the Hussite

heresy. It seems when you were describing your friend, you implied she
missed out on something by not recieving the chalice. The only thing she
misses out on is a historical symbol, the apostles recieved under both
forms, so we are able to, we do not miss out on anything by not doing it.

The sacrament is still fully efficacious when a person receives in only one form, but the symbolism isn’t fully present unless both forms are received. Likewise with baptism: it’s still effective even if it is accomplished by pouring, but the symbolism of being buried and resurrected with Christ isn’t fully present unless it’s baptism by immersion.

Please remember, you seem to have a wonderfully deep knowledge of the Church at your especially young age, but try to interpret people’s statements in as charitable a light as possible – rather than assuming they’re wrong, ask yourself, “Is there a way I can interpret this statement that they can be right?”

Jeremy

​

 

[Magicsilence]

Instead of focusing on who was right.

Swallow the pride, make an apology and ask if you could discuss the issues together face to face with the leader.

Perhaps this is all a misunderstanding.

Perhaps the leader is using a website to teach and they have some of their facts wrong. They are just trying to serve God.

Ultimately, no good can come from this by finding out “who was right”.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[puzzleannie]

we don’t have all sides of the story so we can’t comment on what you did or did not do wrong and how that affected the YM program, and why the director reacted as she did.

I will and have “fired” volunteers and their side of the story when they talk to the pastor always makes me sound like a witch. He backs me up every time. When I dismiss a volunteer it is always for the good of the children and the program, it is never personal.

 

[corvidae]

Again, I was not asking if she was wrong, I was asking if I was. I wanted to know if I was justified in my concern or if I was splitting hairs.

It seems that my concern was justified, but I need to work on how a message is conveyed.

The reason my email started the way it did, even if it was not good, was every other email I have sent, she has taken as criticism. Even when it is not, even when it is straight things kids have told me.
So I felt I should make the purpose of the email clear.

I realize that I have had a lot of experiance for someone so young, I have been refuting Jack Chick comics since I was in 8th grade. But sometimes I have a hard time realizing others may not have the same depth of apologetics as I do. I know this is a point of pride, and I need to work on it.

Pray for me

A lone Raven

 

[Loy]

I know this is a point of pride, and I need to work on it.

Pray for me

A lone Raven

Join the club! (Speaking from my own experience, I’d say don’t beat yourself up, pray for discernment and work on it). God bless you!