Was/Is Mary the Ark?

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Yes Marry is the ark of the covenant and unless you take her as your honorable Mother you have not the word of God and you have not Sabbath.

Its sad really but there are so many cults these days that deny the honor of mother and father yet they claim to keep the commandents. They not only don’t keep the commandments but they don’t even know the comandments. The saddest part is they tend to call themselves by the name of accuser (protestant).
It’a a shame the Mother of Jesus, is regarded as a vessel used and forgotten about by most of our christian brothers and sisters in Christ, except possibly at Christmas time.

Christ was given to us as a Gift at His birth, Mary was given to us as a gift, at the cross from our Redeemer Her Son, Making Her our Mother also.

God Bless
 
Scott Hahn has a really nice talk on this subject. I’ll try to find it.
 
Hi Radical,
I definitely understand where you’re coming from. I think typology is a fairly ethereal topic. Sometimes it can be hard to tell if it’s really God, or just an overactive imagination.

I think when judging typology, what we’re all really looking for is correspondence. I think it can be kind of tricky, and maybe not completely possible, to know if a type corresponds so closely to it’s New Testament anti-type that the only explanation is divine inspiration. Some things which seem to indicate a high probability of true typology are as follows: 1. There are several points of correspondence between type and anti-type 2. The points of correspondence have something unusual or unique about them, 3. The points of correspondence are grouped together in one passage, 4. The typology is part of a larger typological background.

I’ll give you a few examples. That Elisha is a type of Christ seems fairly obvious to me. Elisha was a prophet who raised a boy from the dead and miraculously fed a multitude with loaves of bread. Here we have three points of correspondence (there may be more, but these are the ones that come to mind). It’s not like we’re saying that Jesus and Elisha were both Hebrews who liked fish and wine. Bringing people back to dead and miraculously feeding people aren’t your ordinary every day activity, so they hold some real weight – it’d be almost silly to say that it was mere coincidence.

To show examples of similarities strung together, we could look at at Absalom (2 Sam 18:9-17) and the Book of Wisdom 2:12-20. In the case of Absolam, he’s going along, acting very un-Christlike (though there are similarities that appear before this passage – he is a son of David and he is described as “unblemished”) and then suddenly, he does something very Christlike. He hangs from a tree, gets killed while hanging on it when he is pierced in the side by a soldier and is then put away and covered by rocks. In the Book of Wisdom, we suddenly get all sorts of details about Christ’s life. We read about a man who claimed he was the Son of God, who had enmity with wicked men, who was put through a great trial and was taunted that God should be able to save Him. In both these instances, the fact that there are so many points of correspondence that appear all at once in one passage, seems to indicate to me a high likelihood that God intended these to be foreshadows. As for point four that I made above, obviously there is a huge background of Christ types in the Old Testament, so any alleged type or prophecy of Christ would get more of the benefit of the doubt, since there is already a precedent set. One final point to make, some types are more difficult to discern than others. For example, it’d be almost impossible to tell that the Manna was a type of Christ if he hadn’t told us so.

To apply these principles, one common Mary-Ark argument is that the Holy Spirit overshadowed both of them and then the presence of God then dwelt in them. As far as applying this to my principle #2 above, I think it’s fair to say that this is a fairly unique occurrence, so that strengthens the possibility that this is a true type. Certainly, the Holy Spirit also descended on Jesus at his baptism and then again on the Jews at Pentecost, and also dwells in us Christians. But the Ark and Mary are unique in that God dwelled in them in a tangible and unique way. His presence could be sensed and everybody knew that He was “really there”. Likewise, the same word for “overshadowed” was used to describe the Spirit’s action toward the ark (in the Septuagint) and the Spirit’s action toward Mary. I’ve also been told that this word in Greek is not commonly used. This furthers the idea that this connection of being “overshadowed” is something uniquely special to Mary and the Ark, strengthening the type.
Looking at principles #1 and #3, the aforementioned 2 Sam 6/Luke 1 parallel seems very impressive to me. This chart (agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Mary%20the%20Ark%20of%20the%20New%20Covenant.htm) sums it up pretty well. There are many points of correspondence and they are all grouped very tightly together, just like many of the Christ types and prophecies. They might not match up “exactly right”, but I think that’s just the nature of something as spiritual as typology. Absalom, for instance, was killed when the soldiers pierced him, whereas Jesus was already dead when he was pierced. But because there is such a high amount of correspondence between the events, it hardly seems to diminish the typology at all.

As for my point #4 made above, there seems to be a wide background of purported Marian types that seem to hold water, so this Mary/Ark connection isn’t necessarily alone out in left field. For instance, read about the Hannah/Mary connection here: campus.udayton.edu/mary//resources/hannah.html. There’s also the Mary as the New Eve type. There’s a lot of interesting things you can do with the protoevangelium and the idea that Mary is the woman in Revelation 12 (controversial, I know). We don’t have time to get into these, but for now I’m just pointing out that these (alleged) types are there.

Anyway even though I can’t know with absolute certainty that any one Marian type is true, the fact that there are so many very strong cases to be made regarding very many types, makes me think that God really is behind them. If you want to read more about it, I usually recommend Scott Hahn’s Hail Holy Queen. I’ve also heard that Ignace De LA Potterie’s Mary in the Mystery of the Covenant is very good and goes quite a bit deeper.

Well, I’ve really droned on and on… I hope this has been at least somewhat interesting for you.
 
Ummmm . . . "quite a gal"?
She is the Mother of God - show a little more respect than that . . .

The one thing I really don’t get about statements like this is that you are all denying that Jesus IS the New Covenant. Mary was the vessel of that New Covenant. Ergo - she is the Ark of the New Covenant.

**The Early Church agrees with this claim as she was proclaimed Theotokos **(God Bearer) at the Council of Ephesus in 431. Do your homework before making these sorts of absurd statements.
"Quite a gal", indeed . . .
Oh please…it was a little light humor…I bet it gave her and her Son a chuckle

And I gave Mary the respect she deserves as well as that which her Son Himself called her " Woman". There is a reason why it is not Written that He publicly called her anything but Woman. He was telling the Jewish people of that time that she was fulfilling prophecy in their written word.

The title lovingly given to her by her Son is her real title. And she is well respected by me for that.

But i guess that you are not well pleased with my disagreement with your analysis.
 
I don’t think she did pre-exist like Jesus pre-existed.
Of course not. Jesus is God Incarnate. Mary is not. But she was the God bearer, the one who bore God Incarnate in her womb. The one who carried the WORD.
 
Of course not. Jesus is God Incarnate. Mary is not.
Agreed. Thank you.

Have you found any other mentions of ‘ark’ in the Bible?

1 - Noah’s

2 - baby Moses’ was put in one and found by pharoah’s daughter

3 - the Ark in the Tabernacle and later put in the Temple

4 - the Ark in Heaven (Rev 19; Heb 9)
 
Oh please…it was a little light humor…I bet it gave her and her Son a chuckle

And I gave Mary the respect she deserves as well as that which her Son Himself called her " Woman". There is a reason why it is not Written that He publicly called her anything but Woman. He was telling the Jewish people of that time that she was fulfilling prophecy in their written word.

The title lovingly given to her by her Son is her real title. And she is well respected by me for that.

But i guess that you are not well pleased with my disagreement with your analysis.
Not at all because you didn’t give any reason why you disagreed - only your opinion. Most people at least attempt to explain their answers.

My objection was to your disrespect. But I guess that is to be expected from somebody who claimes to have "one foot in catholicism the other in the evangelic church". **

**Sorry - but you can’t have both (John 17:20-23) . . . :rolleyes:
 
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Agreed. Thank you.

Have you found any other mentions of ‘ark’ in the Bible?

1 - Noah’s

2 - baby Moses’ was put in one and found by pharoah’s daughter

3 - the Ark in the Tabernacle and later put in the Temple

4 - the Ark in Heaven (Rev 19; Heb 9)
Surely.

But since we are specifically talking of an ark that carried the Word for most part that would narrow things to the ark of the old covenant, and of course those references that we believe show the same language in the NT.

What we need to remember is that the ark of the old covenant wasn’t so special because God made very specific requirements of how the ark was built, even though He did, it wasn’t the gold, cheribum etc., but it was what the ark carried, the word of God.

It is not how(or if for some:)) God made Mary to very specific specifications, but what or who she carried that makes her the ark of the New Covenant. Mary carried the Word.
 
**Not at all **because you didn’t give any reason why you disagreed - only your opinion. Most people at least attempt to explain their answers.

My objection was to your disrespect. But I guess that is to be expected from somebody who claimes to have* “one* foot in catholicism the other in the evangelic church”.

**Sorry - but you *can’t ***have both (John 17:20-23) . . . :rolleyes:
Very True 👍.
 
Of course not. Jesus is God Incarnate. Mary is not. But she was the God bearer, the one who bore God Incarnate in her womb. The one who carried the WORD.
Maria, I just don’t understand how folks can miss the poetic nature of OT scripture, such as David dancing with joy when the Ark arrives; also not comparing scripture to scripture;
As when the babe jumped in the womb hearing Mary’s voice. Similarly David dances at the arrival of the Ark that holds the bread of life. Definitely an arche-type. No pun intended.

God Bless All
onenow1:popcorn:
 
Maria, I just don’t understand how folks can miss the poetic nature of OT scripture, such as David dancing with joy when the Ark arrives; also not comparing scripture to scripture;
As when the babe jumped in the womb hearing Mary’s voice. Similarly David dances at the arrival of the Ark that holds the bread of life. Definitely an arche-type. No pun intended.

God Bless All
onenow1:popcorn:
I know. I almost cried (actually, I think I did) when I read the beautiful scriptural typology of Mary and the Ark.

I also don’t understand why more people don’t understand that ALL of the doctrine about Mary is more about who Christ is and less to do with Mary. All of the doctrine about Mary doesn’t point to how special she is but how awesome Christ is!

Mary, more than any other creation, can truly say that everything she is/was, was because of Christ.

God Bless,
Maria
 
I know. I almost cried (actually, I think I did) when I read the beautiful scriptural typology of Mary and the Ark.

I also don’t understand why more people don’t understand that ALL of the doctrine about Mary is more about who Christ is and less to do with Mary. All of the doctrine about Mary doesn’t point to how special she is but how awesome Christ is!

Mary, more than any other creation, can truly say that everything she is/was, was because of Christ.

God Bless,
Maria
Indeed."" When God breaks into our natural world, we should be astonished. And then, like Mary, we should learn to treasure God’s revelation in our minds and hearts."

Luke 2:52 and His mother kept all these things in Her heart.

Peace
 
Well, guys,
Either you are a christian or you are not.

We can be one under that name.

Why you found it disrespectful is beyond me. I said she is His mom and that her correct title, beyond that of being mother of God, is “Woman”, the one whose seed crushes the head of the serpent. Her Son addressed her as that. I did no less.

She is not an ark. Or the Ark. By giving her such a title I think you’ve expanded her role beyond that which was intended for her.

Being “quite a gal” is no more disrespectful than Father Corapi saying “your mama wears combat boots”.
 
Well, guys,
Either you are a christian or you are not.

I am a christian.

I find joy in that.

hence, sometimes a little humor…I bet Jesus laughed a whole lot.

And Mary knows I show her no disrespect becaue i just told her so.
I could imagine the mirth as He walked the road to Emmaus with Cleopas. .🙂

Peace
 
Well, guys,

She is not an ark. Or the Ark. By giving her such a title I think you’ve expanded her role beyond that which was intended for her.

".
Jesus becoming man is not your normal everyday event. Not only did Mary say yes, she acted on God’s word quickly, in haste she went to visit Liz, these are only a few things she pondered in her heart, no small thing being the mother of Jesus.

Peace, onenow1
 
Well, guys,
Either you are a christian or you are not.

We can be one under that name.

Why you found it disrespectful is beyond me. I said she is His mom and that her correct title, beyond that of being mother of God, is “Woman”, the one whose seed crushes the head of the serpent. Her Son addressed her as that. I did no less.

She is not an ark. Or the Ark. By giving her such a title I think you’ve expanded her role beyond that which was intended for her.

Being “quite a gal” is no more disrespectful than Father Corapi saying “your mama wears combat boots”.
why do you think that title expands her role beyond what was intended? Maybe you could define what that title means and how that put it beyond her intended role? And what her intended role is?

By denying her that title, you diminish Christ. Do you deny that Christ was fully man but fully God? Do you deny that Christ is the word? Do you deny that Christ humbled Himself and became God incarnate and was not just born of a woman but carried inside the womb of Mary? Do you deny that it is through Christ we have the new covenant?

If not then Mary carried the Word, the New Covenant. In other words, Mary was the “ark” of the new covenant. Follow the dots laid out by God in scripture.
 
Hi Radical,
I definitely understand where you’re coming from. I think typology is a fairly ethereal topic. Sometimes it can be hard to tell if it’s really God, or just an overactive imagination.

I think when judging typology, what we’re all really looking for is correspondence. I think it can be kind of tricky, and maybe not completely possible, to know if a type corresponds so closely to it’s New Testament anti-type that the only explanation is divine inspiration.
nicely said. The criteria that you list is useful, but I don’t think that it would allow one to be all that certain unless points 1 & 2 were extremely well met.
Some things which seem to indicate a high probability of true typology are as follows:
  1. There are several points of correspondence between type and anti-type
  2. The points of correspondence have something unusual or unique about them,
  3. The points of correspondence are grouped together in one passage,
  4. The typology is part of a larger typological background.
I would consider criterion #3 of lesser importance and I think #4 merely serves as a “God did it before, and so he might just have done it again” sort of argument. .
To apply these principles, one common Mary-Ark argument is that the Holy Spirit overshadowed both of them and then the presence of God then dwelt in them. As far as applying this to my principle #2 above, I think it’s fair to say that this is a fairly unique occurrence, so that strengthens the possibility that this is a true type.
the problem with that example is that it is fudged. It is a comparison of Exodus 40:34-35 to Luke 1:35. In the one case a cloud covered the Tent of Meeting which housed the ark and in the other case Mary was overshadowed by the power of God. The ark doesn’t even get mentioned in the first instance. When the correspondence is cloud <=> Holy Spirit and unmentioned Ark (as opposed to the mentioned Tent) <=> Mary the correspondence strikes me as being more manufactured than unique or strong.
1Looking at principles #1 and #3, the aforementioned 2 Sam 6/Luke 1 parallel seems very impressive to me. This chart sums it up pretty well. There are many points of correspondence and they are all grouped very tightly together, just like many of the Christ types and prophecies. They might not match up “exactly right”, but I think that’s just the nature of something as spiritual as typology.
the grouping together doesn’t impress me much…as an example of how these sorts of connections could be manufactured, I produced this “proof” of Stephen being the New Ark on another thread (and one could claim the same tight grouping for it):

a) Stephen is brought before the assembly of the religious leaders of God’s people (Acts 6:12) and the religious leaders of God people are assembled before the Ark of the Covenant (the AC) (2 Chron 5:2)

b) The Lord appeared upon the mercy seat of the AC (Lev 16:2) and the Lord appeared to Stephen just before he died (Acts 7:56)

c) Stephen was full of God’s power (Acts 6: 8) and the AC was called the Ark of God’s power (2 Chron 6:41)

d) Stephen did miraculous things among the people (Acts 6:8) and the AC did miraculous things among the people (drying up the Jordan at Jos 4:15-16, striking Uzzah dead at 2 Sam 6:7)

e) Stephen had the face of an angel (Acts 6:15) and the AC had angels on its lid (2 Chron 5:7)

f) Stephen saw the glory of God above him and the AC had God’s glory fill the temple area above it (2 Chron 5: 14)

g) The last record of Stephen’s existence on earth is at Jerusalem and the last record of the AC’s existence on earth is at Jerusalem.

h) Stephen’s last recorded resting place was amongst stones and the last recorded resting place of the AC was amongst the stones that formed the temple.

i) The ark of the Old Covenant disappeared, and no trace of it can be found anywhere on earth. Stephen has disappeared and no trace of him can be found anywhere on earth

j) The Jews shouted in front of Stephen (Acts 7:57) and the people shouted before the AC (2 Sam 6:15)

k) Stephen asks God to forgive the people for their sin (Acts 7:60) in stoning him and Solomon in dedicating the temple with the AC inside of it asks God to forgive the people for their sin (2 Chron 6:27).
 
Captain, I looked at your linked chart and noted that it shared most of the connections that were presented on that other thread. For what it is worth, here are my responses (tweaked) from that other thread to the shared points in your linked chart:
God the Holy Spirit overshadowed and then indwelled the Ark. The Ark became the dwelling place of the presence of God [Exodus 40:34-35]
God the Holy Spirit overshadowed and the indwelled Mary. At that time Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of the presence of God [Luke 1:35].
see above
The Ark contained the 10 Commandments [the words of God in stone], a pot of manna, and Aaron’s rod that came back to life [Deuteronomy 10:3-5; Hebrews 9:4].
The womb of the Virgin contained Jesus: the living Word of God enfleshed, the living bread from heaven, “the Branch” (Messianic title) who would die but come back to life [Luke 1:35].
in one case there are some of the words of God in stone and in the other case it is The Word himself in the flesh…Why not observe that the ark of the Old Covenant contained the words of God written in stone and Christ was the Word of God?

in one case actual manna/bread was contained and in the other case only metaphorical bread was involved…Why not observe that the ark of the Old Covenant contained manna and Christ was the bread of life?

in one case a wood rod was contained and in the other case a future priest was contained…if we are going with this type of forced connection, then why not use: The ark was carried on two wood poles and Jesus was hung on two wood poles …which would make Christ the ark.

With regard to the above three attempted connnections the stronger connection belongs to Jesus. Mary carried Jesus for only nine months…but the ark (and its heavenly counterpart) were designed to permenantly carry the tablets, the manna and the rod. Christ permenantly embodies the Word of God, the Bread of Life and the Highest Priesthood. The ark also had a gold cover and between the angels on that cover is where God would meet with Moses. Jesus, the Word made flesh is how God met with people to establish his new covenant. If anything, these connections IMHO make a better case for Jesus being the new ark rather than Mary. One must also note that the things about Jesus that are used in this attempt at a connection with Mary (the Word, bread of life, high priest) are all things that are said about Christ long after Jesus exited Mary’s womb
God made Aaron’s rod (which would be kept in the Ark) return to life and budded to prove he was the legitimate High Priest [Numbers 17:8].
God would resurrect His Son, who had become enfleshed in Mary’s womb and born to bring salvation to all mankind, to prove He is the eternal High Priest [Hebrews 4:14].
trying to link Mary to Jesus being called our high priest (in Hebrews) is contrived to say the least
The Ark traveled to the hill country of Judah to rest in the house of Obed-edom [2 Samuel 6:1-11]
Mary traveled to the hill country of Judah (Judea) to the home of Elizabeth [Luke 1:39]
This one is a stretch. “Hill country of Judea” isn’t even mentioned in 2 Sam. Judea is a small area and the hill country makes up a good chunk of it. That two things each happen in the vicinity of a different hill is not remarkable. This does not differ much from: The ark travelled along a road…Mary travelled along a road
Dressed in a priestly ephod, King David approached the Ark and danced and leapt for joy [2 Samuel 6:14]
John the Baptist, son of a priest who would himself become a priest, leapt for joy in Elizabeth’s womb at the approach of Mary [Luke 1:43]
First David wore a linen ephod which is something Samuel wore as a boy. The ephod worn by a priest was ornate and the priest wore considerably more than just a ephod. (see Exodus 28) As such, David was not dressed as a priest. David danced and leaped as the ark was moved to Jerusalem. John, leaped inside Elizabeth’s womb. These are considerably different movements and the mere use of “leaped” in both cases does not make a connection. Further, if any connection is to be made it would be the Jesus-Ark connection for 2 Sam twice specifies that David danced in front of the LORD.
David shouted for joy in the presence of God and the holy Ark [2 Samuel 6:15]
Elizabeth exclaimed with a loud cry of joy in the presence God within Mary [Luke 1:42]
“Editing” is employed with this one to make the connection look better. Here is what David did:
a) celebrated with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals
b) sacrificed a bull and a fattened calf every 6 steps
c) danced and brought the ark with shouts and the sound of trumpets
Elizabeth, on the other hand made a declaration with a loud voice. When viewed in their contexts, the shouts of the Israelites and the loud declaration of Elizabeth are not similar acts at all.
David asked, “How is it that the Ark of the Lord comes to me?” [2 Samuel 6:9]
Elizabeth asks, “Why is this granted unto me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” [Luke 1:43]
Luke 1:43 * And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 2 Sam 6:9 reads: And David was afraid of the Lord that day, saying: How shall the ark of the Lord come to me? And he would not have the ark of the Lord brought in to himself into the city of David*… David and Elizabeth really ask two totally different things. Elizabeth’s question is an expression about an honour. She wonders why she should be blessed with the presence of the mother of her Lord. David’s question is one of dread. He is afraid and wonders how he can possibly transport the ark…and ends up not wanting the ark brought to him in Jerusalem. These near opposites do not make a connection.
 
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