Was it Christ or Protestors who gave us freedom

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GregoryPalamas

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On another thread Cleargospel offered this bold assertion.

“But for God who is Sovereign in all things he gave us the brave Reformers who sacrificed everything to give us the legacy of freedom of conscience. What a great gift.”

We read this and hear this all the time. It is as false as false can be not only from a simple historical perspective but certainly from a theological perspective.

Let’s discuss this: Was Christ the one who bought back humanity’s freedom or was it the Protesters of the 16th century? Can this be easily refuted both through the context of 15th-18th century history and through the context of theology both from Scripture and from all of Church teaching?

My contention is that this bold claim is false on both grounds, represents a rather reprehensible heresy, and is an open insult to Christ Himself.

Let’s try to help this poor “cleargospel” fellow to see the Light of truth.

CDL.
 
GregoryPalamas said:
“But for God who is Sovereign in all things he gave us the brave Reformers who sacrificed everything to give us the legacy of freedom of conscience. What a great gift.”
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What is meant by “freedom of conscience”? Does that mean that since the reformers did away with purgatory, the sacrament of confession, and the concept of free will that they are now free? That is not freedom. That is slavery to sin and a willfully malformed conscience. Freedom is the ability to do what we ought.

The concept that God did not create us with free will defies the logic of an all-loving, all-powerful God. If He was all-loving, why would He sentence some to Hell without at least allowing them to choose that course?

Freedom of conscience does not even make sense. We must properly form our conscience. If the conscience is not formed, that is not freedom, that is ignorance. Ignorance may be bliss (in this life), but it is not freedom or the ultimate bliss of the beatific vision.

We as humans are prone to error. We are not perfect, nor are we all-knowing. Think about the dialog between Jesus and Peter in Mt. 16:13-19:
“Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
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We see that the people had no idea what to believe. They thought Jesus may have been John the Baptist, or a prophet. They were seriously in error. Then there was Peter, who knew Jesus. He did not know Jesus because he heard it from someone else, but because the Holy Spirit guided him. This passage gives us the beautiful promise that Jesus made to us that He would never abandon His Church to confusion. He gave us a leader, Peter, who was the first Pope. We see that we need a moral leader who can speak with authority, otherwise, we end up with thousands of denominations, each spouting their own confusion as the word of God.

Ignorance is not freedom. Truth is freedom.

–OK, my rant is over!-- 😃
 
catholicmessage said:
What is meant by “freedom of conscience”? Does that mean that since the reformers did away with purgatory, the sacrament of confession, and the concept of free will that they are now free? That is not freedom. That is slavery to sin and a willfully malformed conscience. Freedom is the ability to do what we ought.

The concept that God did not create us with free will defies the logic of an all-loving, all-powerful God. If He was all-loving, why would He sentence some to Hell without at least allowing them to choose that course?

Freedom of conscience does not even make sense. We must properly form our conscience. If the conscience is not formed, that is not freedom, that is ignorance. Ignorance may be bliss (in this life), but it is not freedom or the ultimate bliss of the beatific vision.

We as humans are prone to error. We are not perfect, nor are we all-knowing. Think about the dialog between Jesus and Peter in Mt. 16:13-19:

We see that the people had no idea what to believe. They thought Jesus may have been John the Baptist, or a prophet. They were seriously in error. Then there was Peter, who knew Jesus. He did not know Jesus because he heard it from someone else, but because the Holy Spirit guided him. This passage gives us the beautiful promise that Jesus made to us that He would never abandon His Church to confusion. He gave us a leader, Peter, who was the first Pope. We see that we need a moral leader who can speak with authority, otherwise, we end up with thousands of denominations, each spouting their own confusion as the word of God.

Ignorance is not freedom. Truth is freedom.

–OK, my rant is over!-- 😃
Click to expand...
Catholicmessage person,

I don’t know it that was a rant or not but it sure was good.

CDL
 
catholicmessage said:
What is meant by “freedom of conscience”? Does that mean that since the reformers did away with purgatory, the sacrament of confession, and the concept of free will that they are now free? That is not freedom. That is slavery to sin and a willfully malformed conscience. Freedom is the ability to do what we ought.

The concept that God did not create us with free will defies the logic of an all-loving, all-powerful God. If He was all-loving, why would He sentence some to Hell without at least allowing them to choose that course?

Freedom of conscience does not even make sense. We must properly form our conscience. If the conscience is not formed, that is not freedom, that is ignorance. Ignorance may be bliss (in this life), but it is not freedom or the ultimate bliss of the beatific vision.

We as humans are prone to error. We are not perfect, nor are we all-knowing. Think about the dialog between Jesus and Peter in Mt. 16:13-19:

We see that the people had no idea what to believe. They thought Jesus may have been John the Baptist, or a prophet. They were seriously in error. Then there was Peter, who knew Jesus. He did not know Jesus because he heard it from someone else, but because the Holy Spirit guided him. This passage gives us the beautiful promise that Jesus made to us that He would never abandon His Church to confusion. He gave us a leader, Peter, who was the first Pope. We see that we need a moral leader who can speak with authority, otherwise, we end up with thousands of denominations, each spouting their own confusion as the word of God.

Ignorance is not freedom. Truth is freedom.

–OK, my rant is over!-- 😃
Click to expand...
I have to agree. You have brought some great ideas up…I am going to have to save this post on my computer and ponder on it.
 
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