Was It Possible for Mary to Sin?

[Mokey]

I believe in the Immaculate Conception and that Mary was free of personal sin her whole life.

Given that this is true; could Mary have sinned if she wanted to? If the answer to this is no, then Mary had no free will. Because of the Immaculate Conception, Mary’s condition was no different than Adam and Eve before the fall and they chose to sin.

My wife is struggling with the concept that Mary wasn’t a mother just like her. She had the perfect son and without sin she didn’t have to experience the same struggles of motherhood. In her view, the Church portrays her as some kind of perfect created being. This is something she can’t relate to.

I told my wife that Mary was a human being in all ways like us except for the gift of the Immaculate Conception. Because of her love for the Lord and without the stain of Origninal Sin, she chose not to sin. All of us are given certain gifts to contribute to God’s plan of salvation. Mary’s gift was unique but it doesn’t diminish the gifts we all get.

Am I off base here?

 

[FCEGM]

Mokey:

I believe in the Immaculate Conception and that Mary was free of personal sin her whole life.

Given that this is true; could Mary have sinned if she wanted to? If the answer to this is no, then Mary had no free will. Because of the Immaculate Conception, Mary’s condition was no different than Adam and Eve before the fall and they chose to sin.

My wife is struggling with the concept that Mary wasn’t a mother just like her. She had the perfect son and without sin she didn’t have to experience the same struggles of motherhood. In her view, the Church portrays her as some kind of perfect created being. This is something she can’t relate to.

I told my wife that Mary was a human being in all ways like us except for the gift of the Immaculate Conception. Because of her love for the Lord and without the stain of Origninal Sin, she chose not to sin. All of us are given certain gifts to contribute to God’s plan of salvation. Mary’s gift was unique but it doesn’t diminish the gifts we all get.

Am I off base here?

Not at all; you’ve actually hit a home run.

You might ask your wife to consider that Mary indeed had struggles in her Motherhood - one only has to look at her at the foot of the Cross! Is that a struggle that she would want to go through? A Catholic apologist framed it this way:

Mary’s immaculate heart alone of all mankind really could feel and understand what Christ was doing on the cross. Her perspective is therefore more like ours and less like that of a naive observer who did not understand what was happening. When we stand before the cross it is a sign of contradiction. It is both the greatest shame of humanity and its greatest hope. Knowing this, as she must have, Mary’s comprehension would have run the gamut from sorrow to fascination and joy. Untainted by original sin, Mary was the only authentically human person who has ever lived. (Remember, Jesus was a DIVINE person with 2 natures.) Her psychology and her faith would not be like that of us poor fallen children struggling in this vale of tears. She would feel everything – good and bad --about the crucifixion more intensely than we would. But she would have known it for the victory that it was.

 

[hinhey]

Mokey:

My wife is struggling with the concept that Mary wasn’t a mother just like her. She had the perfect son and without sin she didn’t have to experience the same struggles of motherhood. In her view, the Church portrays her as some kind of perfect created being. This is something she can’t relate to.

"what you said is true-she was perfect, and she had only one, perfect child-but if she’s really the mother of all believers, just think of how many difficult children she’s had!"
-Rome Sweet Home

 

[Church_Militant]

Mokey:

I believe in the Immaculate Conception and that Mary was free of personal sin her whole life.

Given that this is true; could Mary have sinned if she wanted to? If the answer to this is no, then Mary had no free will. Because of the Immaculate Conception, Mary’s condition was no different than Adam and Eve before the fall and they chose to sin.

My wife is struggling with the concept that Mary wasn’t a mother just like her. She had the perfect son and without sin she didn’t have to experience the same struggles of motherhood. In her view, the Church portrays her as some kind of perfect created being. This is something she can’t relate to.

I told my wife that Mary was a human being in all ways like us except for the gift of the Immaculate Conception. Because of her love for the Lord and without the stain of Origninal Sin, she chose not to sin. All of us are given certain gifts to contribute to God’s plan of salvation. Mary’s gift was unique but it doesn’t diminish the gifts we all get.

Am I off base here?

You’re right on target so far as I have seen in both the Bible and teachings of the church.

Could the Blessed Virgin have sinned? Certainly! God makes no robots, and she certainly wasn’t one. The fullness of the grace that she spent her life cooperating with must have been an amazing feeling. How many times does the NT tell us that she “pondered these things in her heart”? Even today most of us don’t really recognize the hand of God in our lives until long after the event. She is a grand example of faithful and humble reliance upon the Lord, and that couldn’t’ve been easy for her especially as the events of the upcoming liturgical week unfold. Something that we can always ponder in our own hearts…

 

[Brian_Ingram]

Mokey:

I believe in the Immaculate Conception and that Mary was free of personal sin her whole life.

Given that this is true; could Mary have sinned if she wanted to? If the answer to this is no, then Mary had no free will. Because of the Immaculate Conception, Mary’s condition was no different than Adam and Eve before the fall and they chose to sin.

My wife is struggling with the concept that Mary wasn’t a mother just like her. She had the perfect son and without sin she didn’t have to experience the same struggles of motherhood. In her view, the Church portrays her as some kind of perfect created being. This is something she can’t relate to.

I told my wife that Mary was a human being in all ways like us except for the gift of the Immaculate Conception. Because of her love for the Lord and without the stain of Origninal Sin, she chose not to sin. All of us are given certain gifts to contribute to God’s plan of salvation. Mary’s gift was unique but it doesn’t diminish the gifts we all get.

Am I off base here?

Mary was born spiritually immaculate or perfect, just as Adam and Eve were created as such, each of them had free will, two sinned one did not.

Pax

Brian

 

[1ke]

Mokey:

I believe in the Immaculate Conception and that Mary was free of personal sin her whole life.

Given that this is true; could Mary have sinned if she wanted to? If the answer to this is no, then Mary had no free will. Because of the Immaculate Conception, Mary’s condition was no different than Adam and Eve before the fall and they chose to sin.

Yes, she could have sinned. She had free will, just as Adam and Eve had free will, and as each of us has free will.

Mokey:

My wife is struggling with the concept that Mary wasn’t a mother just like her. She had the perfect son and without sin she didn’t have to experience the same struggles of motherhood.

Rent a copy of The Passion Of The Christ and look at Mary in that movie. She experienced every struggle and sorrow of motherhood to the power of 10. Remember, it was she who had her heart pierced. She who had to endure the greatest pain a mother can ever know.

Mokey:

In her view, the Church portrays her as some kind of perfect created being. This is something she can’t relate to.

She was a sinless person, who chose to conform her will to God’s will in all things.

Mokey:

I told my wife that Mary was a human being in all ways like us except for the gift of the Immaculate Conception. Because of her love for the Lord and without the stain of Origninal Sin, she chose not to sin. All of us are given certain gifts to contribute to God’s plan of salvation. Mary’s gift was unique but it doesn’t diminish the gifts we all get.

This is a good description.

Mokey:

Am I off base here?

No

 

[thogg85]

How do you know that Mary never sinned? Even if she was born without original sin, she had free will. If Adam and Eve sinned, isn’t it possible that Mary could have sinned? Otherwise Christ’s perfection to be the spotless lamb of God would have not been unique because he would not have been the only person to be without sin. I don’t mean any disrespect, I don’t understand the reasoning.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The spotless lamb of God was slain for our sins.

Mary was NOT slain for our sins.

How then does Mary being “without sin” affect the sacrifice of the perfect lamb of God? It doesn’t. Mary is not God made man, Mary is the Mother of God, the ark of the covenant. The arc was MADE or created to be perfect in order to hold the tablets Moses brought down, which was the word of God. Mary was made or created to be perfect in order to hold the Christ Child sent down to us, who was the Word of God.

Mary’s sinlessness does not detract from Jesus in any way, shape or form. In fact, it emphasizes it even more.

 

[thogg85]

Tantum ergo:

The spotless lamb of God was slain for our sins.

Mary was NOT slain for our sins.

How then does Mary being “without sin” affect the sacrifice of the perfect lamb of God? It doesn’t. Mary is not God made man, Mary is the Mother of God, the ark of the covenant. The arc was MADE or created to be perfect in order to hold the tablets Moses brought down, which was the word of God. Mary was made or created to be perfect in order to hold the Christ Child sent down to us, who was the Word of God.

Mary’s sinlessness does not detract from Jesus in any way, shape or form. In fact, it emphasizes it even more.

You didn’t answer my question. How do you know that Mary never sinned?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Regarding the wife of the OP, have her read Luke chapter 2. Mary may have been sinless, but she faced being told that she would be the mother of God; she faced bearing a child who was NOT the child of the man to whom she was betrothed, who could have had her killed or banished to live on the streets; she faced bearing her child in a cave; she faced having to flee to Egypt with her husband and child; she faced losing her 12-year-old in Jerusalem and searching for Him for three days; when she found Him, she didn’t understand why HE did not understand the sorrow and fear she and Joseph went through. . .

Doesn’t sound like the easiest life in the world to me–Mary was a young woman faced with a scandalous pregnancy, long hard journey far from home, and the disappearance of her child–all before He even reached the teen years.

And then take into account the fact that tradition says that Joseph died before Jesus started his ministry, so Mary was left a a widow; take into account her worries as her Son is simultaneously declared Messiah by some and denounced as a satan by others, take into account that she witnessed his entire crucifixion. . .

There were plenty of opportunities for her to sin. . .to doubt, fear, complain, deny. But she did not. Thank God for Mary and her life of grace which we can strive to emulate. Thank God for our Mother.

 

[thogg85]

Tantum ergo:

Regarding the wife of the OP, have her read Luke chapter 2. Mary may have been sinless, but she faced being told that she would be the mother of God; she faced bearing a child who was NOT the child of the man to whom she was betrothed, who could have had her killed or banished to live on the streets; she faced bearing her child in a cave; she faced having to flee to Egypt with her husband and child; she faced losing her 12-year-old in Jerusalem and searching for Him for three days; when she found Him, she didn’t understand why HE did not understand the sorrow and fear she and Joseph went through. . .

Doesn’t sound like the easiest life in the world to me–Mary was a young woman faced with a scandalous pregnancy, long hard journey far from home, and the disappearance of her child–all before He even reached the teen years.

And then take into account the fact that tradition says that Joseph died before Jesus started his ministry, so Mary was left a a widow; take into account her worries as her Son is simultaneously declared Messiah by some and denounced as a satan by others, take into account that she witnessed his entire crucifixion. . .

There were plenty of opportunities for her to sin. . .to doubt, fear, complain, deny. But she did not. Thank God for Mary and her life of grace which we can strive to emulate. Thank God for our Mother.

I understand all you write. I understand your reasoning now but again, how do you KNOW that she didn’t doubt, complain…? Please direct me to what scripture or document that speaks of this.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

How do I know that Mary never sinned? Well, first, there is absolutely no record of her sinning in the Bible. Second, there is sacred tradition.

Every other person in Scripture save Mary or Jesus is noted to have sinned, every single person. . .by the mere fact of being human. Humans are born with original sin, they are steeped in it (this is in the bible). Only THREE people were “born” without original sin (Adam and Eve, though sinless, were created not born). One was St. John the Baptist, whom we are told was sanctified in the womb of Elizabeth when Elizabeth greeted Mary Jesus Himself said that there was no greater man born of woman than John. ’

One was Mary herself, who was greeted by the angel Gabriel as “full of grace”. It is impossible to be “full of grace” and sinful at the same time. Mary, at the time she became the “ark” and the Mother of Jesus, was sinless. This is all foretold in the Old Testament and referenced in Revelation. Therefore, the only way that Mary could have become a sinner would be for her to have sinned AFTER Jesus was conceived. . .and there is nothing in the Bible that says that she did so.

Finally, Jesus Christ Himself was conceived without sin. Jesus, unlike Mary and John, was not “just” human, but truly God and truly human TOGETHER. Only God Himself could save us from our sins. Mary could not; John could not. Their being born without sin just meant that Jesus saved them BEFORE THEIR BIRTH rather than AFTER their birth, much as a person can be saved from a pit either by pulling them up with a rope AFTER they have fallen in, or by KEEPING THEM FROM FALLING INTO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

[thogg85]

Tantum ergo:

How do I know that Mary never sinned? Well, first, there is absolutely no record of her sinning in the Bible. Second, there is sacred tradition.

Every other person in Scripture save Mary or Jesus is noted to have sinned, every single person. . .by the mere fact of being human. Humans are born with original sin, they are steeped in it (this is in the bible). Only THREE people were “born” without original sin (Adam and Eve, though sinless, were created not born). One was St. John the Baptist, whom we are told was sanctified in the womb of Elizabeth when Elizabeth greeted Mary Jesus Himself said that there was no greater man born of woman than John. ’

One was Mary herself, who was greeted by the angel Gabriel as “full of grace”. It is impossible to be “full of grace” and sinful at the same time. Mary, at the time she became the “ark” and the Mother of Jesus, was sinless. This is all foretold in the Old Testament and referenced in Revelation. Therefore, the only way that Mary could have become a sinner would be for her to have sinned AFTER Jesus was conceived. . .and there is nothing in the Bible that says that she did so.

Finally, Jesus Christ Himself was conceived without sin. Jesus, unlike Mary and John, was not “just” human, but truly God and truly human TOGETHER. Only God Himself could save us from our sins. Mary could not; John could not. Their being born without sin just meant that Jesus saved them BEFORE THEIR BIRTH rather than AFTER their birth, much as a person can be saved from a pit either by pulling them up with a rope AFTER they have fallen in, or by KEEPING THEM FROM FALLING INTO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Again, I fully understand and appreciate what you say. You site sacred tradition as your source. Is it possible for you to site specifically what document? I would really like to read it for myself.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, I just can’t make it any plainer than this–YOU CANNOT PROVE A NEGATIVE.

There is nothing in the Bible that says that Jesus did not preface every parable He made by doing a handstand. And there is nothing that says that He DID preface each parable with a handstand.

So there is no way that I could scripturally “prove” to you that Jesus prefaced his parables with handstands, or that He did NOT preface them. Because if I said, “There is no scriptural passage that states it”, you would say, “there isn’t one that says he did NOT” SO HOW CAN YOU KNOW FOR SURE?

Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt.

I know Mary’s sinlessness by my faith in Christ Jesus and the Catholic Church. It might not be “enough” for you, which is of course between you and God. . .but it’s enough for me. I stand by the teachings of My Lord as given through His Holy Spirit and the Catholic Church. Pax vobiscum.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

OK, some documents about Mary’s sinlessness:

Ephraim the Syrian

“You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan

“Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to” (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).

“The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue. When did she pain her parents even by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy?” (ibid., 2:2:7).

“Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin” (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).

Augustine

“Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both” (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).

“That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head” (Holy Virginity 6:6 [A.D. 401]).

…

“Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?” (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Timothy of Jerusalem

“Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption” (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).

John the Theologian

“[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’” (The Falling Asleep of Mary [A.D. 400]).

“And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise” (ibid.).

 

[Tantum_ergo]

More about Mary:

The Immaculate Conception

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived “by the power of the Holy Spirit,” in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what “immaculate” means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

Fundamentalists’ Objections

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

 

[thogg85]

Thank you Tantum Ergo You have been very helpful. I appreciate your time and effort.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And more still…

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was “invented” at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.

Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Thank you too thogg. . .God bless you!

 

[Petergee]

Even Christ himself was tempted to sin. Being fully human, He had a free choice to decide whether to sin, and He chose not to. The Devil would not have bothered tempting Him if he knew it was impossible for Him to give in to the temptations.

The same applies to the Blessed Virgin Mary.