Was it preordained that mankind commit original sin?

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meltzerboy

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I know that (most) Christianity, like Judaism, puts a high premium on free will. However, if Jesus is thought to have existed at the beginning of “time” with G-d the Father and the Holy Spirit as the three Persons of the Trinity, would not original sin have been necessary from the start so that Jesus serve his main function as Savior from sin? IOW, would Jesus have been necessary if the creation were designed so that Adam and Eve did not bring original sin into the world?
 
You’re touching on a number of deep mysteries, including the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the wisdom and providence of God. I’d just like to clarify a couple of points.

When people say “Jesus always existed,” they are usually referring to the Divine Person of the Eternal Word. Strictly speaking, Jesus Christ did not exist (as such) until God the Word assumed a human nature. In other words, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity exists from all eternity, but became Incarnate in time–not at the beginning of time, but at the Annunciation. His role as Savior belongs to His mission as God Incarnate, not to his divine essence (though the two are closely connected).

As to whether the Word would have assumed a human nature had man not fallen, this question is debated by theologians. Either way, we sing at Easter Vigil, O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem! – O happy fault that merited such and so great a Redeemer!
 
Ad_Orientem said:
You’re touching on a number of deep mysteries, including the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the wisdom and providence of God. I’d just like to clarify a couple of points.

When people say “Jesus always existed,” they are usually referring to the Divine Person of the Eternal Word. Strictly speaking, Jesus Christ did not exist (as such) until God the Word assumed a human nature. In other words, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity exists from all eternity, but became Incarnate in time–not at the beginning of time, but at the Annunciation. His role as Savior belongs to His mission as God Incarnate, not to his divine essence (though the two are closely connected).

As to whether the Word would have assumed a human nature had man not fallen, this question is debated by theologians. Either way, we sing at Easter Vigil, O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem! – O happy fault that merited such and so great a Redeemer!
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Thank you for clarifying that point, to an extent, since, as you say, much remains a mystery. A follow-up question: if the Word had not assumed a human nature due to mankind’s not having fallen, do you think the Trinitarian nature of G-d would ever have been known to mankind on Earth and would Christianity ever have existed?
 
If mankind had not fallen then we would have had the beatific vision from the beginning, and this would have known of the Trinity.
 
meltzerboy said:
I know that (most) Christianity, like Judaism, puts a high premium on free will. However, if Jesus is thought to have existed at the beginning of “time” with G-d the Father and the Holy Spirit as the three Persons of the Trinity, would not original sin have been necessary from the start so that Jesus serve his main function as Savior from sin? IOW, would Jesus have been necessary if the creation were designed so that Adam and Eve did not bring original sin into the world?
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True Christianity professes belief in what Christ taught, including free will.

G-d the Son would have come into the world as true man to rejoice with His creation. He would not have come as a Savior, but to bring mankind to a most perfect communion with the Creator. When the fullness of time had arrived, the eternal Son took flesh, and having found mankind fallen, He took on His humanity the burden of the fall, for divine justice required that atonement be made to the Father, and mankind could not offer it by itself.

This, to us Christians, is very much in accordance with all that the Prophets and the Psalms wrote about the Messiah 🙂

Now of course, while mankind was not “preordained” to fall - for G-d, as Aquinas shows most clearly through reason, cannot will destruction or imperfection - it was definitely “predestined” inasmuch as the omniscent G-d knew that Eve and Adam would fall. Predestination, a great mystery, does not overcome or overrule free will, but, rather, somehow derives from it.
 
meltzerboy said:
do you think the Trinitarian nature of G-d would ever have been known to mankind on Earth and would Christianity ever have existed?
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Well, if G-d is a blessed trinity and if Christ is the Messiah, then, obviously, yes 🙂
 
R_C said:
True Christianity professes belief in what Christ taught, including free will.

G-d the Son would have come into the world as true man to rejoice with His creation. He would not have come as a Savior, but to bring mankind to a most perfect communion with the Creator. When the fullness of time had arrived, the eternal Son took flesh, and having found mankind fallen, He took on His humanity the burden of the fall, for divine justice required that atonement be made to the Father, and mankind could not offer it by itself.

This, to us Christians, is very much in accordance with all that the Prophets and the Psalms wrote about the Messiah 🙂

Now of course, while mankind was not “preordained” to fall - for G-d, as Aquinas shows most clearly through reason, cannot will destruction or imperfection - it was definitely “predestined” inasmuch as the omniscent G-d knew that Eve and Adam would fall. Predestination, a great mystery, does not overcome or overrule free will, but, rather, somehow derives from it.
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Good point regarding the difference between “preordained” and “predestined,” the latter more rightly in accord with the nature of G-d as well as the notion of free will.

Of course, as your smiley suggests to me, this is a great sticking point between Christianity and Judaism. The latter believes that mankind has always had the opportunity to offer atonement to G-d (the Father) through prayer and moral deeds, even in ancient times when communal blood sacrifice of animals was never a substitute for prayer. Thus the coming of the Messiah for Judaism is not meant to be a vicarious atonement for mankind on a personal level, but rather a redemption of the Jewish people and the nations of the world by means of the worship of G-d and peaceful co-habitation. Judaism believes that the Hebrew Bible justifies this interpretation of the role of the Messiah. But, of course, therein lies a tale, as well as another thread.
 
meltzerboy said:
Thus the coming of the Messiah for Judaism is not meant to be a vicarious atonement for mankind on a personal level
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it should be noted that the idea of a vicarious atonement in which we are imputed as righteous is a Protestant idea. Rather, Catholics believe in infused righteousness.
meltzerboy said:
I wonder if Catholics and Protestants differ on this point.
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I don’t know.
 
devoutchristian said:
it should be noted that the idea of a vicarious atonement in which we are imputed as righteous is a Protestant idea. Rather, Catholics believe in infused righteousness.
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Yes, I have read about that difference. Judaism stands apart from both ideas. BTW, thank you for your informed comments.
 
meltzerboy said:
I know that (most) Christianity, like Judaism, puts a high premium on free will. However, if Jesus is thought to have existed at the beginning of “time” with G-d the Father and the Holy Spirit as the three Persons of the Trinity, would not original sin have been necessary from the start so that Jesus serve his main function as Savior from sin? IOW, would Jesus have been necessary if the creation were designed so that Adam and Eve did not bring original sin into the world?
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Jesus does not exist out of necessity though. It is just who God is. God is three persons.

So even if Adam and Eve were not to sin (i.e. I think this would mean that no human will sin), then Jesus might still have come in to the world but he wouldn’t have to die on the cross.

I think it is important to understand that God is not three persons out of a logical necessity as a remedy to original sin but simply because that is who God is.
 
meltzerboy said:
Thank you for clarifying that point, to an extent, since, as you say, much remains a mystery. A follow-up question: if the Word had not assumed a human nature due to mankind’s not having fallen, do you think the Trinitarian nature of G-d would ever have been known to mankind on Earth and would Christianity ever have existed?
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If God did not revel the Holy Trinity through Christ, it is a position of the Church that we can never know the existence of Trinity by human reason alone. In fact, I think several teachings of some rationalists were condemned because they set out to prove just that.
 
Eufrosnia said:
If God did not revel the Holy Trinity through Christ, it is a position of the Church that we can never know the existence of Trinity by human reason alone. In fact, I think several teachings of some rationalists were condemned because they set out to prove just that.
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If Adam and Eve had not sinned then we would have possessed the beatific vision on Earth, and as such would have had direct knowledge of the Trinity’s existence.
 
devoutchristian said:
No, Jesus would not have become incarnate had the fall not occured. newadvent.org/summa/4001.htm#article3
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But St. Thomas answers as
For such things as spring from God’s will, and beyond the creature’s due, can be made known to us only through being revealed in the Sacred Scripture, in which the Divine Will is made known to us. Hence, since everywhere in the Sacred Scripture the sin of the first man is assigned as the reason of Incarnation, it is more in accordance with this to say that the work of Incarnation was ordained by God as a remedy for sin; so that, had sin not existed, Incarnation would not have been. ***And yet the power of God is not limited to this; even had sin not existed, God could have become incarnate. ***
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