Was Jesus a Apocalyptic messenger

[Vico]

…

Haydock Commentary, Matthew 24

Ver. 34. This generation; i.e. the nation of the Jews shall not cease to exist, until all these things shall be accomplished: thus we see the nation of the Jews still continue, and will certainly continue to the end of the world. T.
— Then the cross, which has been a scandal to the Jew, and a stumbling-block to the Gentile, shall appear in the heavens, for the consolation of the good Christian. Hoc signum crucis erit in cœlo, cum Dominus ad judicandum venerit.
— If it be to be understood of the destruction of Jerusalem, the sense may be, this race of men now living; if of the last day of judgment, this generation of the faithful, saith Theophylactus,[4] shall be continued: i.e. the Church of Christ, to the end of the world. Wi.
— This race, I tell you in very truth, shall not pass away till all this be finally accomplished in the ruin of Jerusalem, the most express figure of the destruction and end of the world. V.
— By generation, our Saviour does not mean the people that were in existence at that time, but the faithful of his Church; thus says the psalmist: this is the generation of them that seek the Lord. Ps. xxiii, v. 6. S. Chrys. hom. lxxvii.

B. Bristow, C. Calmet, Ch. Challoner, D. Du Hamel, E. Estius, J. Jansenius, M. Menochius, Po. Polus, P. Pastorini, T. Tirinus, V. Bible de Vence, W. Worthington, Wi. Witham.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

It’s a shame Haydock has to play so fast and loose with language, but I guess it’s necessary when the plain reading of the text shows a prophecy that failed.

One of the signs Jesus gave was him returning in the clouds for all to see. Jesus told the high priest Caiaphas that he would see Jesus’ return in the clouds. That didn’t happen and Caiaphas is long dead. He told his disciples that some of them standing there would not taste death before he returned.

 

[Isearch]

The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

“Worked into the tapestry was a panorama of the heavenly bodies, omitting, though, the signs of the zodiac.”

-Josephus describing a temple curtain in his Jewish War Book 5, 214.

He continues to describe the symbolism of the sacred vessels:

“The seven lamps branching from the lampstand symbolized the planets; the twelve loaves on the table symbolized the zodiac circle…”

-Jewish War Book 5, 217

Personal Conjecture: Jesus was talking about the destruction of the temple.

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

The passage continues: and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:31, Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition).

This whole passage might be describing these events recorded by Josephus:

“Before sunset there could be seen in the sky across the whole country chariots and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and circling over cities. And at the feast of Pentecost, when the priests entered the inner temple at night to conduct the customary service, they reported that they became aware first of some movement and a crash, and then of several voices together saying, ‘We are leaving this place.’”

-Jewish War Book 6, 298-299

Personal Conjecture: Who is to say that at least some of the people did not see Jesus among those heavenly battalion, leading the celestial hosts of heaven? I acknowledge I am most probably stating my personal opinions here. But consider this: many of the supernatural phenomena that happened within that city were most likely not recorded by Josephus (probably due to time constraints). Some may have actually seen Him among the witnessed battalion described here.

Anyway, the Olivet Discourse was most probably describing the fall of Jerusalem and the temple while not discounting them as descriptions of the end times. What happened in 70 A.D. may have been a microcosm of what will happen at the end times.

 

[Saint_Prince_Caspian]

Christ was the Son of God. He had to continue the legacy of the Prophets. The reality of sin demonstrated full witness and account of Christ’s life.

Sin is exile. God’s people were living in sin. Thereby living in exile. But treated themselves as if they were not. Christ gave the punishments of sin. Which people tend to use words like Apocalyptic and Rapture.

The reality is that sin exists. And there are consequences. That doesn’t take anyone in the domain of studies or science, or anything. Even a PhD, or other avenue of degrees are not necessary to know that!

It wasn’t like, to use the analogy, when Sir Isaac Newton posited the phenomenon of gravity, that before then in the world of ancients. That the phenomenon of gravity didn’t exist. It wasn’t as though when pottery dropped, fell, and broke. Somehow there was this illusion it did not happen in the ancient world. Likewise, it isn’t as though sin wasn’t observed for its’ many consequences until the Prophets, or Christ Himself. Rather, it was that God so loved His people. He sent Prophets first. And then His Only Begotten Son to tell them so. It was for by His Own Covenant and Promise for the Salvation of souls.

I think if you read Revelation. This whole History of Salvation essentially covers the point that not only sin exists. But it’s apparitions are huge and tremendous. When sin raises its’ head gigantic and impressionable within humanity. Thus, you see the Harlot and the Beast. Men become like monsters from sin.

The reality of God is that man does not live alone. Man should tread fearful. The Universe is bigger than man can ever conceive in his own mind and will.

When man tries to fit everything into his mind, like Heaven, and the Universe. And creation. Man tries in his finite mind to uncover mysteries of how the Universe was made. Or what it was for that it was made. Man tries to posit himself like a god. The knower, move, exacter, and operator of everything that is.

Man simply doubts God, because he wants to become one. If he can just push the God of Judeo Christianity aside, and in the finite limits of his mind. He can therefore become like God.

And that is a strange thought. Man cannot become like God. Just by doubting His existence either.

If man evolved from micro-organisms, and from every gradient species, leading up to him. Man was once no more than a worm. If you prefer the evolutionist’s explanation. Then why would this worm think he like onto God Himself? Foolish.

 

[Vico]

It’s a shame Haydock has to play so fast and loose with language, but I guess it’s necessary when the plain reading of the text shows a prophecy that failed.

One of the signs Jesus gave was him returning in the clouds for all to see. Jesus told the high priest Caiaphas that he would see Jesus’ return in the clouds. That didn’t happen and Caiaphas is long dead. He told his disciples that some of them standing there would not taste death before he returned.

You mean that Caiaphas was dead before the Ascension of Jesus Christ?

 

[Dan_Defender]

One of the signs Jesus gave was him returning in the clouds for all to see. Jesus told the high priest Caiaphas that he would see Jesus’ return in the clouds.

This prophecy was given to the disciples in the Garden of Olives (Matt 24) not to Caiaphas.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Personal Conjecture: Jesus was talking about the destruction of the temple.

Would you agree that you and others are taking this position because a literal interpretation is untrue? If the prophecy were about events that are to be fulfilled in our lifetimes would you not assume the literal interpretation and not try to find a symbolic one? That’s the problem. People had to scramble to rationalize the prophecy after its plain meaning proved false. Any time I chime in on a prophecy thread on CAF I always ask the following questions, since I think it cuts to the heart of the matter:

What good is a prophecy when no one can say what it would take to be fulfilled?
What good is a prophecy when no one can say if it has been fulfilled?
What good is a prophecy when no one can say if it hasn’t been or won’t be fulfilled?
What good is a prophecy where the most vague symbolism can be applied to claim that it has been fulfilled?

Let’s say I make a prophecy that the prime minister of Canada will die by 2020? 2020 comes around and he’s very much alive. Basic integrity would say my prophecy failed, but if we use the same reasoning as with the Olivet Discourse I can use various avenues to claim I was right. If he left office or even if his approval ratings drop I can say he died in a political sense. If he gets divorce or becomes a widower, then I can say he died emotionally. Maybe I can claim that I’m not referring to specifically the current prime minister. Maybe it was a previous one, or someone who was simply an important figure in the country. I can claim that 2020 wasn’t a year but symbolic of a sense of foresight. That’s just the tip of the iceberg. Christians by necessity will try to fit the squarest of pegs into the roundest of holes.

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Personal Conjecture: Who is to say that at least some of the people did not see Jesus among those heavenly battalion, leading the celestial hosts of heaven? I acknowledge I am most probably stating my personal opinions here. But consider this: many of the supernatural phenomena that happened within that city were most likely not recorded by Josephus (probably due to time constraints). Some may have actually seen Him among the witnessed battalion described here.

Anyway, the Olivet Discourse was most probably describing the fall of Jerusalem and the temple while not discounting them as descriptions of the end times. What happened in 70 A.D. may have been a microcosm of what will happen at the end times.

The Olivet Discourse says clearly everyone – in China, Sumeria, Norway, etc. – would see Jesus in the clouds and mourn, and it would happen in the lifetimes of those he was speaking to. You can’t say that only some people saw it, only Josephus recorded it, and no one mourned. One can’t simply leave out facets of a prophecy, especially those that could prove it was fulfilled.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

This prophecy was given to the disciples in the Garden of Olives (Matt 24) not to Caiaphas.

It was given to both using the same imagery of coming in the clouds of heaven:

Matthew 26:64 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition

Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

You mean that Caiaphas was dead before the Ascension of Jesus Christ?

It’s not about his ascension but about his second coming. Look at the passages I gave Dan_Defender. Jesus in the Bible uses the same imagery of coming in the clouds when talking to Caiaphas as when talking to his disciples about his second coming. Jesus set a time frame for his return (before Caiphas died and before all of his apostles died) and failed to meet it. By the Bible’s own words he is a false prophet and thus not of God.

 

[Dan_Defender]

ok but I do not see the timeline of the Second Coming being within the earthly life of Caiaphas. ‘Hereafter’ is hardly a short number of years. Obviously the Church disagrees with your interpretation.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

You mean that Caiaphas was dead before the Ascension of Jesus Christ?

It’s not about his ascension but about his second coming. Look at the passages I gave Dan_Defender. Jesus in the Bible uses the same imagery of coming in the clouds when talking to Caiaphas as when talking to his disciples about his second coming. Jesus set a time frame for his return (before Caiphas died and before all of his apostles died) and failed to meet it. By the Bible’s own words he is a false prophet and thus not of God.

You wrote “Jesus set a time frame for his return (before Caiphas died and before all of his apostles died) and failed to meet it”. Jesus refers to the fulfillment of the prophesy of Daniel. Caiphas does live when Jesus Christ is “seated at the right hand of the Power”. As the Creed states “He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty”.

Daniel 7:13

13 As the visions during the night continued, I saw coming with the clouds of heaven

“One like a son of man.”
When he reached the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him,
He received dominion, splendor, and kingship;
all nations, peoples and tongues will serve him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
that shall not pass away,
his kingship, one that shall not be destroyed

Matthew 26

63 But Jesus was silent. Then the high priest said to him, “I order you to tell us under oath before the living God whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so. But I tell you:

From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man
seated at the right hand of the Power’
and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’”

Mark 1

61 But he was silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him and said to him, “Are you the Messiah, the son of the Blessed One?” 62 Then Jesus answered, “I am;
and ‘you will see the Son of Man
seated at the right hand of the Power
and coming with the clouds of heaven.’”

All people will also see the Final Judgement.

 

[Crusader13]

It’s not about his ascension but about his second coming. Look at the passages I gave Dan_Defender. Jesus in the Bible uses the same imagery of coming in the clouds when talking to Caiaphas as when talking to his disciples about his second coming. Jesus set a time frame for his return (before Caiphas died and before all of his apostles died) and failed to meet it. By the Bible’s own words he is a false prophet and thus not of God.

It’s about the coming destruction of Jerusalem. The “generation” which Jesus is referring to are those of his contemporaries. A generation, especially when it’s talked about in the bible, is typically between 30-40 years. This makes sense, given that nearly 40 years after Jesus’ ascension, the temple was in fact destroyed.

In addition, the language used by Jesus is in fact pointing to his divinity. In the OT, no one comes in the clouds, except for God. So when Jesus uses this language, as He did when he refers to himself as “the Son of Man, coming in the clouds”, this is in direct reference to his divinity.

“The tribes of earth” is not referring to the entire planet earth. The Greek word used is “ge”, when read in it’s proper context with this entire chapter, isn’t speaking of the entire world, but of the “land”. More precisely, the land of Israel.

This is a similar problem that many who subscribe to the dispensationalist view of eschatology run into when trying to interpret this passage.

 

[Isearch]

Would you agree that you and others are taking this position because a literal interpretation is untrue? If the prophecy were about events that are to be fulfilled in our lifetimes would you not assume the literal interpretation and not try to find a symbolic one?

If “literal” you meant the literal meaning of the words said, then the answer ranges from maybe to yes.

If “literal” you mean what Jesus actually meant when he told His apostles these, probably not.

The apostles, probably because they are Jewish or because they are taught the meaning of the sacred vessels by John the Baptist, who was himself a levite priest aside from being a hermit, would have understood the references to the temple when He mentioned the destruction of the celestial bodies.

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

In Luke 2:1, the “world” is the Roman Empire (arguably even just a small portion of it). So this passage may be using Jerusalem or the Holy Land as a microcosm of the whole world during the end times.

Disclaimer: I am not dogmatic about these explanations. I just believe these passages and explanations are defensible.