Was Jesus a proof texter?

[francisca]

Scott Waddell:

What are we arguing about then? I think there is some miscommunication. Are we off-topic?

Yes we are. My apology.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

To pull the thread back on-topic, I’d say that I as a Catholic am not shaken by proof-texting, but I am somewhat put off by those who refuse to do anything other than proof text. In my conversations I’ve found that those who will only quote Scripture (presumably in an attempt to show their firm foundation in it) are quite easy to surprise with passages that do not fit their theology. As one example, when I quoted 2 Peter 3:16 to a Protestant friend he asked me, rather perplexed, if it was really from the Bible.

 

[system]

francisca:

Yeah… increase of faith because of our own works : this kind of “faith” is nothing but “calm conscience”.

WHERE IN THE WORLD DID YOU GET THAT UNDERSTANDING???

The Canon of ZTrent is clear that merited works add your justification. Justification is a process.

Paul and John wrote about it : that we will dare to come near God with calm consciense. For if we are so blessed, how can we let our brothers without food, etc.

That verse has nothing to do with the merited work define by the Canon of Trent.

In other words, we can’t fool ourselves nor God. But John says that even if our conscience accuse us, God is greater than our conscience. God’s Mercy is greater than our sins and our conscience.

Are you saying that even if your conscience tells you that you’re sinning then you should ignore it because God is mercyful? And then you don’t have to go to confession?

We are too formed our conscience. If the conscience is properlu formed it shall guide us to the right path. We are not to ignore it and be presumptious thinking, “Lets ignore our guilty conscience, it’s from the devil”. If you commit sins, go confess it.

Anyway, such itsy bitsy definition could nullify the main definition : our justification is by grace through faith : UN-EARNED FREELY GIVEN period.

Where is the WORK Francisca? Why are you neglecting it? Are you adhering to Luther blasphemous theology?

As for our works : that will happen automatically, because God has put His law in our hearts. Since then, we can’t be idle anymore. Our hearts will be full of God’s praise, and our body is full of energy to serve. The lack of energy to give praise and to serve automatically shows the absence of faith.

God bless.

Happen automatically? If you do not cooperate with the grace given by God to do the good work than you will not do the work. There’s no automation.

 

[francisca]

beng3000:

WHERE IN THE WORLD DID YOU GET THAT UNDERSTANDING???

The Canon of ZTrent is clear that merited works add your justification. Justification is a process.

Tell me then : how it is that “our works” shall “add” our justification if we know that justification is “unearned” freely given grace?

Our works will only accuse or calm our conscience. And I agree with Trent that if we have a lot of good works, we will go nearer to God (grow spiritually). Calm conscience will bring us nearer to God. But shaken conscience will makes us affraid and refuse God (self condemnation).

Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Hebrews 4:16
Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 3:19-20
19 (Now) this is how we shall know that we belong to the truth and reassure our hearts before him
20 in whatever our hearts condemn, for God is greater than our hearts and knows everything.
21 Beloved, if (our) hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in God

Are you saying that even if your conscience tells you that you’re sinning then you should ignore it because God is mercyful? And then you don’t have to go to confession?

I’m saying that “There is always HOPE in God”. So even if we sin, we must put our hope in God’s Mercy.

We are too formed our conscience. If the conscience is properlu formed it shall guide us to the right path. We are not to ignore it and be presumptious thinking, “Lets ignore our guilty conscience, it’s from the devil”.

Agree.

If you commit sins, go confess it.

To confess sin is not enough.

If you sin, you must confess your faith that God shall free you from that sin.

Where is the WORK Francisca? Why are you neglecting it? Are you adhering to Luther blasphemous theology?

Justification by grace throug faith period.

If you do not cooperate with the grace given by God to do the good work than you will not do the work. There’s no automation.

Therefore, we must focus on THAT GRACE instead of our own works.

God bless.

 

[system]

francisca:

Tell me then : how it is that “our works” shall “add” our justification if we know that justification is “unearned” freely given grace?

Because Justification is a process.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVI.-If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.

Our works will only accuse or calm our conscience.

Work will increase justification that is already attained. Justification is a process.

And I agree with Trent that if we have a lot of good works, we will go nearer to God (grow spiritually). Calm conscience will bring us nearer to God. But shaken conscience will makes us affraid and refuse God (self condemnation).

Hmm, that is so like Luther. You read Luther too much.

Luther was a scrupulous man. His conscience bothers him, that is why he came up with the heretical “faith alone”. Because he doesn’t wanna be bothered by a guilty conscience and declare that after you are saved, you will stay saved because Christ’s imputed rigteousness. That is a heresy.

If you ignore your conscience and does not properly form your conscience, you are in a lot of trouble. Do not seek comfort in Luther’s heretical theology that’s never before seen until the 16th century.

2 Corinthians 1:12
Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, in the holiness and sincerity that are from God. We have done so not according to worldly wisdom but according to God’s grace.

This depicts a properly formed conscience. Paul does not say to ignore conscience.

I’m saying that “There is always HOPE in God”. So even if we sin, we must put our hope in God’s Mercy.

God has given us the sacrament of penance so it would be easy for us to repent from our mortal sin (because perfect contrition is hard). If you do not even bother to do this easy task, then do not blame God.

To confess sin is not enough.

If you sin, you must confess your faith that God shall help you get rid of that sin.

Confession, done properly, is enough to remit mortal sin and get people back to justified state.

If you do not confess, you loose your sanctifying grace and may not inherit internal life in case you die.

Justification by grace throug faith period.

Romans 2:13
**13 **For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but **the doers **of the law who will be justified.

Therefore, we must focus on THAT GRACE instead of our own works.

God bless.

If you do not cooperate with that grace to work, then you are rejecting that grace.

There’s much Luther’s errors in you. Read more books by Scott Hahn.

 

[francisca]

Sorry I was still editing my posting when you answered it. I included these verses :

Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Hebrews 4:16
Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 3:19-20
19 (Now) this is how we shall know that we belong to the truth and reassure our hearts before him
20 in whatever our hearts condemn, for God is greater than our hearts and knows everything.
21 Beloved, if (our) hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in God

Those verses shows that we shall “always have confidence in God”. Surely when we sin, our conscience accuse/condemn us. We ought to believe that God does not want to condemn us. Our own sin condemn us. So when we sin, we ought to turn to God for His Mercy. Without Hope in Jesus, we will end up condemning ourselves.

If we want to “work out” our salvation, we will end up condemning ourselves. Because the bible says “cursed be the man who put trust in man’s strength”.

 

[system]

francisca:

Sorry I was still editing my posting when you answer it.

These verses :

Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

This verse proof that your conscience is your friend.

Do NOT confuse conscience with scrupulousity, which you have.

Hebrews 4:16
Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

This verse does not give you license to sin. Or to ignore any sin that you’ve comitted and falsely think, “Oh God is mercyful”

God is indeed mercyful, that is why he gave you the Church, specifically the sacrament of penance. If you know it but do not use it, do not blame God later on.

1 John 3:19-20
19 (Now) this is how we shall know that we belong to the truth and reassure our hearts before him
20 in whatever our hearts condemn, for God is greater than our hearts and knows everything.
21 Beloved, if (our) hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in God

This is also not a license to sin or to ignore a proper conscience.

Those verses shows that we shall “always have confidence in God”. Surely when we sin, our conscience accuse/condemn us. We ought to believe that God does not want to condemn us. Our own sin condemn us. So when we sin, we ought to turn to God for His Mercy. Without Hope in Jesus, we will end up condemning ourselves.

Of course your conscience will condemn you if you sin, BECAUSE SIN CONDEMNS YOU. Your conscience is telling you that what you do is bad. You would need to repent.

In order for you to clear your conscience you must repent (go to confession if you commit mortal sins). NOT trying to feel good by ignorintg your conscience and being presumptios of God’s mercy.

Presumptious of God’s mercy is one of the manifistation of the unforgivable sin, that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. By being presumptious you will never repent (you only ignore your conscience) and therefore you do not get forgiveness. therefore your soul would be in jeopardy.

Read this part of Catechism about conswcience and learn

This is the teaching of the Church promulgated by the Magisterium who are compose of many expert, biblical scholars and saintly men.

 

[francisca]

I didn’t say anything about “giving license to sin” nor did I talked about “feeling good although sinning”.

I am talking about “your own works” can’t save you, but “it can make you feel good” if you are doing well.

But if you are not doing well, you still have hope.

Bottom line : You are saved by Grace through Faith period.

That is all I can say rightnow. I’m signing off. Bye2.

God bless

 

[system]

francisca:

I didn’t say anything about “giving license to sin” nor did I talked about “feeling good although sinning”.

Do you ignora your conscience?

Have you read the link to the Catechism?

I am talking about “your own works” can’t save you, but “it can make you feel good” if you are doing well.

But if you are not doing well, you still have hope.

Did you even read the Canon of Trent that I have given you?

Bottom line : You are saved by Grace through Faith period.

That is all I can say rightnow. I’m signing off. Bye2.

God bless

Romans 2:13
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Read the Canon of Trent also