Was Jesus a real Person?

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PatThePoet

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Was Jesus of Nazereth an actual historical figure? Or was he just a myth created from pagan stories and used to control the masses? A lot of atheists say theat Jesus is just a bunch of pagan myths and that the Bible was written by Roman nobles to fool dumb commoners into submission.

Questions: :confused:

Is there proof for an actual Jesus outside of the New Testament?

Can the New Testament be considered an accurate historial document written in the time it presents itself?

Were people such as Pilate, Caiphas, John the Baptist, Simon Peter, Paul of Tarsus, and John of Patmos real or were they just made up?

How do we know that the Bible compiled at Nicea is accurate? There were a LOT of exra texts (Gospel of Peter, Jubilles, ect.) that were thrown out. Why?

Why is the Gospel of John so diffirent from the other three Gospels? (ie the Document Q argument)

Thank You for Posting
 
PatThePoet said:
Was Jesus of Nazereth an actual historical figure? Or was he just a myth created from pagan stories and used to control the masses? A lot of atheists say theat Jesus is just a bunch of pagan myths and that the Bible was written by Roman nobles to fool dumb commoners into submission.
Questions: :confused:
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PatThePoet said:
Was Jesus of Nazereth an actual historical figure? Or was he just a myth created from pagan stories and used to control the masses? …
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There is no evidence to suggest that Jesus was a myth created from stories. Christians believe He was a man who fulfilled ancient prophecies. Christians really have no reason for believing otherwise. Our Traditions are too fascinating to dismiss.
 
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
There is no evidence to suggest that Jesus was a myth created from stories. Christians believe He was a man who fulfilled ancient prophecies. Christians really have no reason for believing otherwise.
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Secular scholars, with a few exceptions, acknowledge the difficulty in this movement arising as it did from a made up person. Paul writes in the late 40’s, his first letter anyway that we have
 
Didn’t you just post this question in the apologetics forum?
 
PatThePoet said:
Pilate, Caiphas, John the Baptist, Simon Peter, Paul of Tarsus, and John of Patmos real or were they just made up?
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As a professional historian, I can answer at least some of these:

Pontius Pilate was definitively a real person, as we have numerous records of him in Roman documents, and we have found his palace.

The ostuary (coffin / bone box) of Caiphas was accidentally found a few years ago, with bones intact. Most archeologists believe that this is indeed the genuine article.

The tomb of St. Peter is located directly under the main altar of St. Peter’s Cathedral in the Vatican. Although it is not definitive, there is strong archeological evidence that suggests that this is the real deal. The tomb dates to the right time frame and the correct location. The bones are from the right era, and the man was indeed crucified upside-down (as tradition tells us he was, and was a somewhat unusual for the Romans to use for crucifixion).

St. Paul’s tomb was recently rediscovered in a cathedral in Rome. Archeological excavations have yet to be done on it.

Now, as far as Jesus himself, there are two or three passing references to him outside of the Bible. Josephus mentions him, Tacitus mentions him, and I believe that there is at least one other very brief mention in another source, but I don’t recall it. That said, most serious historians find it doubtful that such a large movement would arise so rapidly from a myth. Jesus almost certainly was a real person. (There are many other people in history that we actually have LESS evidence for, and yet, we don’t doubt them…)
 
Personally I find it hard to believe an entire religion so focused on the life and (alleged) resurrection of one single man could have come into being, if the teacher had never lived. There are clearly mythical characters in the world’s folklore and stories who probably never existed but were powerful figures in later stories; Achilles and Odysseyus from Homer’s works for example, were fictional characters who never existed, but who influenced later generations. I think it is possible people like Moses are fictional, but I doubt Jesus was fictional. However the attributes and actions imputed to him in later theology and writings are questionable, from a critical and skeptical viewpoint.
 
PatThePoet said:
Was Jesus of Nazereth an actual historical figure? Or was he just a myth created from pagan stories and used to control the masses? A lot of atheists say theat Jesus is just a bunch of pagan myths and that the Bible was written by Roman nobles to fool dumb commoners into submission.

Questions: :confused:

Is there proof for an actual Jesus outside of the New Testament?

Can the New Testament be considered an accurate historial document written in the time it presents itself?

Were people such as Pilate, Caiphas, John the Baptist, Simon Peter, Paul of Tarsus, and John of Patmos real or were they just made up?

How do we know that the Bible compiled at Nicea is accurate? There were a LOT of exra texts (Gospel of Peter, Jubilles, ect.) that were thrown out. Why?

Why is the Gospel of John so diffirent from the other three Gospels? (ie the Document Q argument)

Thank You for Posting
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Did Julius Caesar really exist?

1: “Is there proof for an actual Jesus outside of the New Testament?”
Answer: Yes. Some ancient historians and chronicles, also pagan, speak of Him in some way.

2: “Can the New Testament be considered an accurate historial document written in the time it presents itself?”
Answer: Most definately yes. If you compare the NT to other historical accounts (whose authenticity none questions) from the Ancient period, the Gospels stand out as highly credible.

3: “Were people such as Pilate, Caiphas, John the Baptist, Simon Peter, Paul of Tarsus, and John of Patmos real or were they just made up?”
Answer: They did indeed exist.
The scriptures we know them from are from a time when Christians were severely persecuted for following Christ, AND most (John and Rev may be exeptions) were written at a time when there were still eye-witnesses to the life of Jesus, and the events of those three years.
So historical accuracy is the keyword! Just making up some names, and putting them into historical contexts, would have been UTTERLY DEVASTATING for the point that was trying to be made: God became man, walked the Earth, did and said many things, and were eventually crucified, so that we could be righteous from His sacrifice. If some of the persons in the Gospels were not historical, and events did not transpire as the Gospels say they did, then Christianity would have died then and there, because people would have said: “You’re just making this up!”
Contrary to the general belief, people in ancient times were NOT any dumber than we are today, and knew when someone were trying to con them.

4: “How do we know that the Bible compiled at Nicea is accurate? There were a LOT of exra texts (Gospel of Peter, Jubilles, ect.) that were thrown out. Why?”
Answer: There are multiple possible reasons!
1: The text was not written by an apostle.
2: The text was not used by the vast majority of Churches.
3: The text contained heresy against Christian teachings (the gnostic texts)
and I can’t remember if there are one more that I’ve forgotten…
But do not for a second believe that it was just casting lots that determined what we today call the Bible.
Secondly, and as important as the first answer: There are lists of canonical Scriptures from as far back as 160 (Muratori’s canon), so the idea of canon was not one that just sprung up at Nicea. Centuries earlier, Christians had a pretty good idea of what WAS the Word of God, and even more what was NOT.

5: “Why is the Gospel of John so diffirent from the other three Gospels? (ie the Document Q argument)”
Answer: You’ll have to ask the author. A possibility is that it is partially written against early gnostics (which would be supported by the immense importance John places on the Incarnation of “ho logos” = “the Word”, and the powerful trinitarian statements), but it is impossible to give a complete answer to that question.
 
Rolltide said:
As a professional historian, I can answer at least some of these:

Pontius Pilate was definitively a real person, as we have numerous records of him in Roman documents, and we have found his palace.

The ostuary (coffin / bone box) of Caiphas was accidentally found a few years ago, with bones intact. Most archeologists believe that this is indeed the genuine article.

The tomb of St. Peter is located directly under the main altar of St. Peter’s Cathedral in the Vatican. Although it is not definitive, there is strong archeological evidence that suggests that this is the real deal. The tomb dates to the right time frame and the correct location. The bones are from the right era, and the man was indeed crucified upside-down (as tradition tells us he was, and was a somewhat unusual for the Romans to use for crucifixion).

St. Paul’s tomb was recently rediscovered in a cathedral in Rome. Archeological excavations have yet to be done on it.

Now, as far as Jesus himself, there are two or three passing references to him outside of the Bible. Josephus mentions him, Tacitus mentions him, and I believe that there is at least one other very brief mention in another source, but I don’t recall it. That said, most serious historians find it doubtful that such a large movement would arise so rapidly from a myth. Jesus almost certainly was a real person. (There are many other people in history that we actually have LESS evidence for, and yet, we don’t doubt them…)
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The brief reference to Jesus in Josephus is now felt by many historians to be spurious.

Remember that we are speaking of Jesus here, a man from whose death we date our years. Someone who is so well-known worldwide that his name needs no explanation. Someone whose story is known the world over.

So how is it that there is so very, very little of him in the historical record? There is much more in the historical record about people who were far less famous.
 
HashemEchad said:
The brief reference to Jesus in Josephus is now felt by many historians to be spurious.

Remember that we are speaking of Jesus here, a man from whose death we date our years. Someone who is so well-known worldwide that his name needs no explanation. Someone whose story is known the world over.

So how is it that there is so very, very little of him in the historical record? There is much more in the historical record about people who were far less famous.
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A wise Jewish poster on here quoted someone who said that even if we cannot find record of Jesus, we have accurate records of people who died in the first and second century because of their faith in him, and some of these people claimed to have known him.

The dating system came much later. WHy is there so little about him in the record? Lots of reasons. In proper reference, he was just a blip on the screen in an edge of the Empire town that was well known of its trouble makers. He had some devout followers and made some powerful enemies, but that was not uncommon. He was just one of thousands of Jews crucified by Rome. Nothing special. But, his followers, for whatever reason, refused to give up. They refused to back down. They refused to shut up and go home. They were beaten and killed, yet their numbers grew. They were kicked out of the synagogs and temples, yet they still praised God. Somehow, for the first time ever, and as near as I can tell the last time, the followers of a man who claimed to be the messiah KEPT RIGHT ON FOLLOWING dispite all of the trouble and pain that it caused them.

Jesus had a grass roots ministry that ended up world wide. Before TV, radio, cars or anything else we associate with g modern growth potential.

That alone has to be worth something.
 
If Jesus did not exist, who is better than first century Jews to have proved it and save themselves from the “false teachings” of His followers by killing their “myth” on the spot?
 
PatThePoet said:
Was Jesus of Nazereth an actual historical figure? Or was he just a myth created from pagan stories and used to control the masses? A lot of atheists say theat Jesus is just a bunch of pagan myths and that the Bible was written by Roman nobles to fool dumb commoners into submission.

Questions: :confused:

Is there proof for an actual Jesus outside of the New Testament?

Can the New Testament be considered an accurate historial document written in the time it presents itself?

Were people such as Pilate, Caiphas, John the Baptist, Simon Peter, Paul of Tarsus, and John of Patmos real or were they just made up?

How do we know that the Bible compiled at Nicea is accurate? There were a LOT of exra texts (Gospel of Peter, Jubilles, ect.) that were thrown out. Why?

Why is the Gospel of John so diffirent from the other three Gospels? (ie the Document Q argument)

Thank You for Posting
Click to expand...
Your profile says you are Catholic?..:confused:
 
MelanieAnne said:
This is a silly question.
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I don’t think it is a silly question at all. So many people here seem to feel this way about questions that others post. I think that it is a question worth discussing.

I am of the opinion that Jesus was a real person and is today; in the body of the Eucharist.

Annie
 
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