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tonsofquestions
Guest
Or some other point? Does his divine nature know even now?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
I don’t care to speculate further than this. Since we get into a paradox of 3 sets of books so to speak between the human mind and the human soul and the beatific vision through the hypostatic union with the Divine 2nd Person of the Trinity.
James
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tonsofquestions
Guest
All right, someone else then. Does the Son’s divine nature know everything, or doesn’t it?
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tonsofquestions
Guest
What is your source for this information?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
OK - yes. But it is not made manifest to the human conscience by divine consent.
The problem we can too easily get into is one of dividing the natures as if there is not a perfect unity and that would be improper. Jesus is simultaneously both God and Man but consents to limiting his human facilities.
James
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tonsofquestions
Guest
By the way, is this Church teaching, or speculation?
Also, can Jesus be wrong about anything?
C
Chaldean_Rite
Guest
If you are not aware of this, you need more catechsim. I suggest the Baltimore Catechsim or the CCC
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
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tonsofquestions
Guest
I was pretty sure of it, I just wanted to be absolutely sure. Nothing screws up an argument more than having false information in there.
S
steve_b
Guest
He is fully God and fully man.
In His humanity, He grew in wisdom and knowledge.[Lk 2:52]
This was required of Him as human, because He (as fully human) needed to repair for all the disobedience of humanity since Adam and Eve and all the living till the end of the world. As scripture says, in His humanity, He was like us except sin. [Heb 4:15] And being God, He applies His repair for the entire human race past present and future.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19880203en.html
As for the end of the world, that timing as scripture says, is the Father’s decision. The reason is so that people aren’t found napping.
Mk 13:
20 And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. 21 And then if any one says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22* False Christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 But take heed; I have told you all things beforehand. 24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26* And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. 28 "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30* Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place. 31* Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 32* “But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.33* Take heed, watch and pray; * for you do not know when the time will come. 34* It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch. 35* Watch therefore–for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning-- 36 lest he come suddenly and find you asleep. 37 And what I say to you I say to all: Watch.”
What can also be said is that when you personally die, that is the end of the world for YOU. At that moment of death you will be judged and know immediately where you will spend eternity. There is no waiting for the “end of the world”., or the “second coming”. You will know at your death that you will be in either heaven or hell. And you don’t know when your moment of death will be. So as Jesus says, always be prepared.
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tonsofquestions
Guest
Is it possible for Jesus to be incorrect about anything?
F
FCEGM
Guest
Jesus did have the information since, as God, He possesses all things.* Jesus, in the humility of His humanity, though, chose (an act of human will) not to “look”,* and this was because the time of His Second Coming was not to be part of the Revelation of the Incarnate Jesus to the Church.That’s all His statement about the “Father alone knows” means: that the time of the Second Coming is withheld from the
revelation of the New Covenant (which comes to us through the Incarnate Christ).
Remember that Christ is not only in the Nature of God, but of Man, and so in His human nature He is able to (and does) grow in the knowledge and wisdom that pertains to being a Man. So when addressed about “the End” we see Him limiting His answer to what He knows as Man, because this is information that is not for mankind to know, only to be prepared for. As St. Augustine said, “It was no part of His teaching duty to make it [the day of the General Judgment] known to us.”
revelation of the New Covenant (which comes to us through the Incarnate Christ).
Remember that Christ is not only in the Nature of God, but of Man, and so in His human nature He is able to (and does) grow in the knowledge and wisdom that pertains to being a Man. So when addressed about “the End” we see Him limiting His answer to what He knows as Man, because this is information that is not for mankind to know, only to be prepared for. As St. Augustine said, “It was no part of His teaching duty to make it [the day of the General Judgment] known to us.”
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Chaldean_Rite
Guest
Sure, if I held two black marbles in my hands and asked him wich hand has the white marble, he probbaly would be incorrect if He answered anything, unless in He answered in His divine nature and knew it was a trap.
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tonsofquestions
Guest
When you say “answered in His divine nature” are you implying that He switches between his divine nature and human nature? That he sometimes talks in his divine nature and sometimes talks in his human nature?
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tonsofquestions
Guest
He didn’t just limit his answer, he said that the Son(and thus his divine nature as well) does not know. If His Divine nature did know, then his statement was incorrect. If His Divine nature did not know, then that statement was correct, but the idea that He knows everything gos right out the window.
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Newbie2
Guest
We do not understand fully how Jesus could have a fully divine and fully human nature…but we accept it as a matter of faith.
Next question.
Next question.
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tonsofquestions
Guest
That is an easy way around any contradiction. If non-christians used that mentality with their religions, there would have been no converts to Christianity, and Christianity would have died 2000 years ago.We do not understand fully how Jesus could have a fully divine and fully human nature…but we accept it as a matter of faith.
Next question.
N
Newbie2
Guest
I beg to differ. Show me one true Christian who claims to know everything about God i.e. claims that there are no “mysteries” that we do not understand, yet believe anyway.
It is precisely because we have faith in what we cannot see or prove that Christianity continues on and on and on…
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Shin
Guest
Try sermon #2, ‘Christ’s Knowledge’ in this link.
And this one: On the Dual Nature of Jesus
These two sermons pretty much cover all the aspects of the issue, the second sermon gets into it about 1/3 of the way through.
I will try to relate the material in brief, but it is best to listen to them… more than once, to gain a thorough idea of it, and study the various kinds of knowledge. It is the study of Christ.
Christ had both human knowledge and divine knowledge. In His divine knowledge, He is all knowing, knowing all things, past, present, and future.
He knows everything, all.
In his human knowledge He has three kinds of knowledge: Beatific knowledge, infused knowledge, acquired knowledge.
In His human knowledge, in regards to the first two kinds of knowledge (beatific, infused), He knows all that His divine knowledge holds, unto the capacity of His human nature to know it.
How great a capacity does the human nature have to know what the divine nature knows? No one knows. But the second sermon goes into detail as to the extent this is, and that it covers all of Creation, and would only not pertain to what can only be part of divine knowledge.
And given that this is all united in one divine person. . in the hypostatic union. . . and such a deep matter to even attempt to know… Nevertheless, to continue…
Christ’s experiential knowledge is the knowledge in which He grew in. That is, acquired knowledge that you gain from going through something is the only way in which Christ grew in knowledge.
In other words, I might know that I am going to encounter you, and all the truth of what will happen, and what you will say – but I haven’t experienced you saying it, felt it, heard it, until you actually do it.
Let’s consider Christ as an infant. He knows all, He is a divine person. In His human nature, through His beatific vision, He knows all of Creation. Through infused knowledge, which is also perfect, He understands everything.
But in His acquired knowledge, the first time He holds something, eats something, sees something – This experiential knowledge, He grows in.
This experiential knowledge, He can be ‘lacking’ in the sense of not experiencing something yet. This is why and the only way how the Son does not ‘know’ something.
Hopefully I’ve worded this properly. Any errors, God help me and have mercy. I am still studying the matter and have the potential to make mistakes.
And this one: On the Dual Nature of Jesus
These two sermons pretty much cover all the aspects of the issue, the second sermon gets into it about 1/3 of the way through.
I will try to relate the material in brief, but it is best to listen to them… more than once, to gain a thorough idea of it, and study the various kinds of knowledge. It is the study of Christ.
Christ had both human knowledge and divine knowledge. In His divine knowledge, He is all knowing, knowing all things, past, present, and future.
He knows everything, all.
In his human knowledge He has three kinds of knowledge: Beatific knowledge, infused knowledge, acquired knowledge.
In His human knowledge, in regards to the first two kinds of knowledge (beatific, infused), He knows all that His divine knowledge holds, unto the capacity of His human nature to know it.
How great a capacity does the human nature have to know what the divine nature knows? No one knows. But the second sermon goes into detail as to the extent this is, and that it covers all of Creation, and would only not pertain to what can only be part of divine knowledge.
And given that this is all united in one divine person. . in the hypostatic union. . . and such a deep matter to even attempt to know… Nevertheless, to continue…
Christ’s experiential knowledge is the knowledge in which He grew in. That is, acquired knowledge that you gain from going through something is the only way in which Christ grew in knowledge.
In other words, I might know that I am going to encounter you, and all the truth of what will happen, and what you will say – but I haven’t experienced you saying it, felt it, heard it, until you actually do it.
Let’s consider Christ as an infant. He knows all, He is a divine person. In His human nature, through His beatific vision, He knows all of Creation. Through infused knowledge, which is also perfect, He understands everything.
But in His acquired knowledge, the first time He holds something, eats something, sees something – This experiential knowledge, He grows in.
This experiential knowledge, He can be ‘lacking’ in the sense of not experiencing something yet. This is why and the only way how the Son does not ‘know’ something.
Hopefully I’ve worded this properly.
Any errors, God help me and have mercy. I am still studying the matter and have the potential to make mistakes.
C
Chaldean_Rite
Guest
We do not understand the Incarnation, only that it’s real.
Catechism of the Catholic Church **483 **The Incarnation is therefore the mystery of the wonderful union of the divine and human natures in the one person of the Word.
**Catechism of the Catholic Church ****464 **The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man. During the first centuries, the Church had to defend and clarify this truth of faith against the heresies that falsified it.
**Catechism of the Catholic Church ****470 **Because “human nature was assumed, not absorbed”, in the mysterious union of the Incarnation, the Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ’s human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body. In parallel fashion, she had to recall on each occasion that Christ’s human nature belongs, as his own, to the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it. Everything that Christ is and does in this nature derives from “one of the Trinity”. The Son of God therefore communicates to his humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. In his soul as in his body, Christ thus expresses humanly the divine ways of the Trinity: The Son of God. . . worked with human hands; he thought with a human mind. He acted with a human will, and with a human heart he loved. Born of the Virgin Mary, he has truly been made one of us, like to us in all things except sin.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
No. Jesus is the the living truth - not a word out of Hi mouth can be in error. That said, its possible that somone might misconstrue what he means if they read their own point of view into it.
James
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