Was Jesus Christ the First Time Traveler?

[pprimeau1976]

OK, I was reading a book called the “Physics of Christianity” that claimed essentially the when Jesus ascended, that his body now transcends time and space. He even claimed that it was Jesus who appeared in these Old Testament scenes:

1. Walked in the Garden looking for Adam in Genesis 3:8

When they heard the sound of the LORD God moving about in the garden at the breezy time of the day, the man and his wife hid themselves from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

1. Spoke with Moses face to face Exodus 33:9-11:

As Moses entered the tent, the column of cloud would come down and stand at its entrance while the LORD spoke with Moses. On seeing the column of cloud stand at the entrance of the tent, all the people would rise and worship at the entrance of their own tents. The LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as one man speaks to another. Moses would then return to the camp, but his young assistant, Joshua, son of Nun, would not move out of the tent.

That was amazing when I read it and I realized that it could be true. How come this is glossed over?

 

[Penitus]

Why couldn’t any of those instances been God the Father or God the Holy Spirit, each of whom have no body?

Even if it was Jesus, there’s nothing present to assume he had a human body at the time. Jesus has always existed, forever. However, he did not have a human body until the Incarnation occurred.

Jesus is no time traveler, and that book sounds hokey.

 

[pprimeau1976]

I agree it sounds hokey, because it’s like imagining Jesus as a “Doc Brown” or “Doctor Who” type of character. But look at the following from Justin Martyr: Dialogues with Trypho, Chapter 56

Then I replied, “Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things,—numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done anything which He who made the world—above whom there is no other God—has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with.”

If Christ could appear to people in the future like St. Faustina, could he not appear to people in the past, such as Adam, Abraham, and Moses?

 

[runandsew]

I have heard that sometimes in the Old Testament, when it was “The Angel of God” that appeared to people, it could have been referring to the pre-incarnate Lord. So if that is the case, it would not be Jesus in his earthly humanity form, but his pre-incarnate spiritual body that was manifest to them, and the spirit of God is always in the eternal ‘now’. You can not travel from today to yesteryear, if eternity is now.

And as for a human form, well, that is how God would have manifest himself, something that was understandable to humans, just like when the angels appear to people. I guess he could have come in the form of a talking chariot, but just like the TV series “my mother the car”, it would have had low ratings, and only lasted a season or two.

 

[Cari]

Doesn’t time have to co-exist with space? And for something to exist in relation to space, doesn’t it have to have matter?

If Jesus didn’t have a physical body until the Incarnation, and then shed that physical body for His Glorified body after the Resurrection, then any travels he made before the Incarnation or after the Resurrection couldn’t have been, strictly speaking, “time travels”.

You can’t measure time until a thing moves from one space to another. And, if you’re dealing with something that is pure spirit, with no matter, then it doesn’t occupy space in a way that requires it to physcially move.

So I guess the reason we’ve never heard of this theory is because it’s bunk.

Cheers,
Cari

EDIT: That’s not to say that Jesus is confined by time or space. He could have been the “Angel of God” or in the Garden of Eden, or in front of St. Faustina. He just couldn’t have been a “time traveler” when He did it.

 

[tee_eff_em]

It is not my intent to hijack this thread, and if it would be better to spawn a new thread, let me know and I shall do so.

If Jesus didn’t have a physical body until the Incarnation, and then shed that physical body for His Glorified body after the Resurrection, then any travels he made before the Incarnation or after the Resurrection couldn’t have been, strictly speaking, “time travels”.

I think one of us misunderstands the resurrection (as well as anyone can be said to understand it)

And why was the tomb empty? What makes you say Jesus’s glorified body is not the same as his physical body? Is his glorified body not physical?

tee

 

[JimG]

He certainly put a cosmic crack into the space-time contuum with the institution of the Eucharist and his sacrifice on Calvary. The sacrifice of Calvary extended back in time to make Him present in the eucharistic species at the Last Supper, and forward in time to make him present in every Mass at every time and place the eucharist is offerred. One event–Calvary–present in many times and locations.

 

[Cari]

What makes you say Jesus’s glorified body is not the same as his physical body? Is his glorified body not physical?

tee

No. It’s not physical. His glorified body wasn’t the same as His physical one- otherwise, His disciples would have recognized him immediately after the Resurrection. If His glorified body was physical, then we’re to believe that Heaven is a physical location, since it supported His physical body after the Ascension? If Heaven is a physical location, then where is it? Which galaxy? Can we someday reach it by rocketship? How many light years did it take our Lord to zoom towards it with His physical body?

 

[Herstal_Belgium]

No. It’s not physical. His glorified body wasn’t the same as His physical one- otherwise, His disciples would have recognized him immediately after the Resurrection. If His glorified body was physical, then we’re to believe that Heaven is a physical location, since it supported His physical body after the Ascension? If Heaven is a physical location, then where is it? Which galaxy? Can we someday reach it by rocketship? How many light years did it take our Lord to zoom towards it with His physical body?

Indeed, the Body of Jesus is physical - remember Thomas putting his hand into His side a week after the Resurrection?

Just as His Body is physical, it is “glorified”, meaning it is of a different nature than our own - this “glorified nature” supersedes our physical world, which is how He could just seem to “walk through walls”, and why His appearance wasn’t recognized immediately by His disciples. Remember, it was always some sort of spiritual, esoteric action that made the disciples recognize Jesus, His saying their name (as in Mary Magdalene’s seeing Him first in the garden) or the breaking of bread (as in the disciples on the road to Emmaus) or the last time they saw Him, when He told Peter to cast his net to the right side of the boat, and drew out the 153 fish.

As for “where is Heaven”? It is everywhere around us, we just can’t experience because we are of sinful flesh, not glorified matter!

 

[JimG]

Sure, a glorified body is still a body. It’s made of matter. It has some additional abilities, which we will also have in our glorified bodies after the resurrection.

 

[Smber2c]

No. It’s not physical. His glorified body wasn’t the same as His physical one- otherwise, His disciples would have recognized him immediately after the Resurrection. If His glorified body was physical, then we’re to believe that Heaven is a physical location, since it supported His physical body after the Ascension? If Heaven is a physical location, then where is it? Which galaxy? Can we someday reach it by rocketship? How many light years did it take our Lord to zoom towards it with His physical body?

Hey Cari, usually I agree with you. But I think that those above me are right here. Wasn’t Mary assumed to Heaven body and soul?

It’s certainly not a place we can just fly a space ship too. And it isn’t through a worm hole. Or dimensional portal. But God knows where and He’s got the key. (He is the key)

…no on second thought. He is the narrow gate and Peter’s got the key

 

[tee_eff_em]

No. It’s not physical. His glorified body wasn’t the same as His physical one- otherwise, His disciples would have recognized him immediately after the Resurrection. If His glorified body was physical, then we’re to believe that Heaven is a physical location, since it supported His physical body after the Ascension? If Heaven is a physical location, then where is it? Which galaxy? Can we someday reach it by rocketship? How many light years did it take our Lord to zoom towards it with His physical body?

I repeat my question: Why was the tomb empty? What would you say became of Jesus’s physical body?

Why does his glorified-but-not-physical body bear the marks of the passion? (And don’t you think *that *should have been a huge clue to anyone, even if they did not immediately recognize his face? Perhaps there is more to this glorified non-recognition than - *ahem *- meets the eye?) How is it that his glorified-but-not-physical body could eat?

This glorified-is-not-physical is not any Catholic teaching I have ever heard.

tee

 

[tee_eff_em]

Two quick checks from the Catechism (with emphases added):

643 Given all these testimonies, Christ’s Resurrection cannot be interpreted as something outside the physical order, and it is impossible not to acknowledge it as an historical fact. …

645 By means of touch and the sharing of a meal, the risen Jesus establishes direct contact with his disciples. He invites them in this way to recognize that he is not a ghost and above all to verify that the risen body in which he appears to them is the same body that had been tortured and crucified, for it still bears the traces of his Passion. Yet at the same time this authentic, real body possesses the new properties of a glorious body: not limited by space and time but able to be present how and when he wills; for Christ’s humanity can no longer be confined to earth, and belongs henceforth only to the Father’s divine realm. For this reason too the risen Jesus enjoys the sovereign freedom of appearing as he wishes: in the guise of a gardener or in other forms familiar to his disciples, precisely to awaken their faith.

tee

 

[paarsurrey]

OK, I was reading a book called the “Physics of Christianity” that claimed essentially the when Jesus ascended, that his body now transcends time and space.

Hi
I think no real Scientist or Physicist would believe it.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.
GodAllahYHWH is All-Knowing; one should invariably give Claim and Reason on all important issues from one’s Revealed Book; one shouldn’t try putting one’s own words into God’s mouth.

 

[C_Bautista]

Christ’s glorified body is physical, of course. It simply is no longer limited by space and time and so on. It is physical in the sense that it can be naturally manifested in physical reality, but it is no longer bound by laws of nature or science.

The way I see it, a glorified human body is one in which physical and spiritual are made to be in perfect union. This is seemingly part of the reason why Heaven and Earth must “pass away” and be renewed: in order for a finite being to have a physical body and a spirit existing in perfect unity, reality cannot be the same as our current universe.

While the actions of the Father are inseparable from the actions of the Son or Holy Spirit, the actions of our soul are not yet inseparable from the actions of our body. We can form contradictions between the two. Only when our body and soul act perfectly together can we perfectly love God. And so it makes sense that we must be physical in at least one sense.

Because God is not finite, though, He Himself - the glorified Christ - can manifest Himself fully and physically in His truly glorified body right now. THIS, at least partly, is why His apostles didn’t recognize Him - His body was physical, but now His very body was no longer ONLY physical. They looked upon not only a physical body, but also its perfect union with spirit and divinity.

He could appear in locked rooms and such an violate “laws” of science. This could be seen perhaps, scientifically speaking, as Christ’s physical body transcending normal three-dimensional movement.

So while Christ’s presently glorified body IS physical, it is not MERELY physical.

 

[Mintaka]

Re: the original post –

An appearance of God in the Old Testament (and the New, for that matter) is called a “theophany”. (From which, via French, comes the girl’s name “Tiffany”, btw.)

Believing that the Son or even the whole Trinity appeared in the Old Testament isn’t something new or weird in theology; it goes back to the early Christians. But it is something not emphasized in Latin Catholic homilies in the US. I believe our Eastern brothers and sisters get a lot more about this stuff, especially since there are lots of icons representing such scenes. (Like Abraham entertaining his guests; that’s a favorite one.) I think we should get more on this stuff, too, as it is very nifty and interesting.

Hope this helped!

 

[pprimeau1976]

Hi
I think no real Scientist or Physicist would believe it.
.

Yes, a real scientist would believe it. His name is Frank Tipler and he wrote the Physics of Christianity. He maintains that God created both moral laws and physical laws and essentially uses these to perfrom the miracles of Christianity. He maintains that God does not break any laws of Physics, he operates well within them, because he created them. It’s Quantum Physics that he speaks mainly about.

BTW, paarsurrey. His book will offend you. Tipler claims that Islam has had almost NO impact on science at all. So I think a real scientist would believe it. No Muslim scientist would believe it.

 

[Ahimsa]

OK, I was reading a book called the “Physics of Christianity” that claimed essentially the when Jesus ascended, that his body now transcends time and space. He even claimed that it was Jesus who appeared in these Old Testament scenes:

1. Walked in the Garden looking for Adam in Genesis 3:8
2. Spoke with Moses face to face Exodus 33:9-11:

That was amazing when I read it and I realized that it could be true. How come this is glossed over?

I believe the Eastern Orthodox Church officially teaches that all of the appearances of God in the O.T. were appearances of God the Son.