Was Jesus crucified on a cross or a stake?

[patrick457]

1. In John 20:25, we see Thomas stating that unless he can put his fingers ‘into the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails’ he will not believe. Notice ‘nails’, not ‘nail’.

Let me play the Devil’s Advocate here

1.) I’ve seen the argument that parses ‘His hands’ from ‘the print of the nails’. The argument goes that ‘the nails’ refers to those driven in BOTH hands and feet, not just the hands.

2.) Then there’s the all-purpose ‘Oh, those are just artist’s conceptions; Jesus may not have actually been impaled like that.’

1. Galatians 3:1. ‘O stupid Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?’ Crucified, not ‘impaled on a torture stake’.

Of course, the NWT renders the passage as:

O senseless Ga·la´tians, who is it that brought YOU under evil influence, YOU before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly portrayed impaled?

Notice how they rendered the Greek word estaurōmenos (rendered in most Bibles as ‘crucified’) as ‘impaled’, because of that little word stauros.

 

[patrick457]

This stauros argument is a red herring. The Mormons and JWs begin with the assumption that they have Christianity “right” and the Church (and all her wandering daughters) have it wrong, and they seize upon things like this to “prove” that the Church is wrong. It makes no doctrinal difference whether the gibbet had a cross-bar (although there are lots of neat devotional and linguistic connections including not only those quoted by Patrick but the sealing with the tau in Ezekiel’s vision and the parallel passage in Revelation). But in the context of “Jesus died for the salvation of mankind,” the shape of the gibbet is not an essential.

It is interesting that the forefathers in faith of these modern heresies (Arians and Pelagians) did not raise this issue, however. Probably because they were closer in time to the original language and historical context and it didn’t occur to them that they could fool people with it.

I think this is the reason too. After all, the Watchtower Society themselves originally held that Jesus was crucified and used the image of the cross, only changing their opinion around the 1930’s. Not that this was original to them: there were already people who thought Jesus was stake-ified. The Watchtower Society seems to have just cribbed and capitalized on the idea. After all, how can you believe folks who got it wrong in such a small and trivial matter, i.e. the form of Jesus’ gibbet, with the larger and more important stuff?

As an example, try searching this work of Charles Taze Russell (The New Creation) for the words cross, crucified or crucifixion: it actually pops up quite often! (By contrast, a search for stake or impaled turned up none)

 

[Big_Dummy]

I think we should also point out the the “torture stake” is also a pagan symbol or of pagan origin too. That there is no early christian art that places Jesus on a torture stake, only on a cross – see the catacombs under rome as an example of this.

 

[Splinker]

given the scarcity of wood, I’d bet on stake. ALthough, if the Roman’s reused the wood…

 

[Splinker]

The Romans were not picky in regards to how they would crucify people. The Romans used crosses, poles, stakes, upside-down crosses, x-shaped crosses, walls, roofs, etc. Jesus could have been crucified on any of these objects… gotquestions.org/cross-pole-stake.html

 

[Lutheranteach]

Stake, cross, tree, was any less dead at the end of the day? Any less alive three days later?

 

[patrick457]

given the scarcity of wood, I’d bet on stake. ALthough, if the Roman’s reused the wood…

Well, they COULD have reused the vertical posts as well as the crossbeams until they were worn down, and made them to last well long enough. It is thought that Romans reused nails since iron was expensive in those days, so why couldn’t they do it with wood? Jesus was after all probably not nailed on a specially manufactured ten-foot tall gibbet made out of smooth plywood as many Renaissance art seem to suggest. So who knows, maybe the True Cross or the Holy Nails were taken and reused for a later execution once Jesus was taken off of it?

 

[patrick457]

I was reading one of those pamphlets about what the bible really teaches from the Mormons and it states in there that the proper greek word used in the bible for what Jesus was crucified was on a stake, one of their reasons for not carrying crosses, using it in worship, etc.
So does someone have a response to this?

BTW, let me just answer this:
Yes, the Mormons do not use the cross in worship, but no, they do not believe that Jesus was stake-ified, as the Jehovah’s Witnesses do. Their use of Carl Bloch, their films, and a bunch of other stuff should be enough testimony to that.

 

[JRRTFAN]

I was reading one of those pamphlets about what the bible really teaches from the Mormons and it states in there that the proper greek word used in the bible for what Jesus was crucified was on a stake, one of their reasons for not carrying crosses, using it in worship, etc.
So does someone have a response to this?

I think you were reading Jehovah Witness pamphlets, Mormon’s don’t “do” pamphlets and they don’t buy the “stake” stuff. The stake concept is simply a profound denial of truth and a kind of “If Catholics believe it it must be wrong.” theology proposed by a truly wierd cult.

Did the crowd shout: “stake him, stake him” or “crucify him” ? “Take up your stake daily and follow me.” “And there they staked him.” It’s GOOFY!

 

[JRRTFAN]

The Romans were not picky in regards to how they would crucify people. The Romans used crosses, poles, stakes, upside-down crosses, x-shaped crosses, walls, roofs, etc. Jesus could have been crucified on any of these objects… gotquestions.org/cross-pole-stake.html

A person can’t be crucified on anything but a cross. Crucify means “crossify” that’s what the root word means “crux” = cross.

 

[patrick457]

I think you were reading Jehovah Witness pamphlets, Mormon’s don’t “do” pamphlets and they don’t buy the “stake” stuff. The stake concept is simply a profound denial of truth and a kind of “If Catholics believe it it must be wrong.” theology proposed by a truly wierd cult.

Did the crowd shout: “stake him, stake him” or “crucify him” ? “Take up your stake daily and follow me.” “And there they staked him.” It’s GOOFY!

Well, you had it coming

“And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.”

Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me. For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.”

Now in responding the governor said to them: “Which of the two do YOU want me to release to YOU?” They said: “Bar·ab´bas.” Pilate said to them: “What, then, shall I do with Jesus the so-called Christ?” They all said: “Let him be impaled!” He said: “Why, what bad thing did he do?” Still they kept crying out all the more: “Let him be impaled!”
Then he released Bar·ab´bas to them, but he had Jesus whipped and handed him over to be impaled.

Finally, when they had made fun of him, they took the cloak off and put his outer garments upon him and led him off for impaling.

When they had impaled him they distributed his outer garments by casting lots, and, as they sat, they watched over him there. Also, they posted above his head the charge against him, in writing: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”
And that’s just Matthew!

 

[patrick457]

At last, some portrayal that takes into account Matthew 27:34!

 

[JRRTFAN]

Well, you had it coming

“And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.”

Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me. For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.”

Now in responding the governor said to them: “Which of the two do YOU want me to release to YOU?” They said: “Bar·ab´bas.” Pilate said to them: “What, then, shall I do with Jesus the so-called Christ?” They all said: “Let him be impaled!” He said: “Why, what bad thing did he do?” Still they kept crying out all the more: “Let him be impaled!”
Then he released Bar·ab´bas to them, but he had Jesus whipped and handed him over to be impaled.

Finally, when they had made fun of him, they took the cloak off and put his outer garments upon him and led him off for impaling.

When they had impaled him they distributed his outer garments by casting lots, and, as they sat, they watched over him there. Also, they posted above his head the charge against him, in writing: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”
And that’s just Matthew!

Only one word: PROFOUND.

 

[patrick457]

Only one word: PROFOUND.

We’re not over yet.

Again in reply Pilate was saying to them: “What, then, shall I do with him whom YOU call the king of the Jews?” Once more they cried out: “Impale him!” But Pilate went on to say to them: “Why, what bad thing did he do?” Still they cried out all the more: “Impale him!” At that Pilate, wishing to satisfy the crowd, released Bar·ab´bas to them, and, after having Jesus whipped, he handed him over to be impaled.

Now as they led him away, they laid hold of Simon, a certain native of Cy·re´ne, coming from the country, and they placed the torture stake upon him to bear it behind Jesus.

Then they took charge of Jesus. And, bearing the torture stake for himself, he went out to the so-called Skull Place, which is called Gol´go·tha in Hebrew; and there they impaled him, and two other [men] with him, one on this side and one on that, but Jesus in the middle. Pilate wrote a title also and put it on the torture stake. It was written: “Jesus the Naz·a·rene´ the King of the Jews.” Therefore many of the Jews read this title, because the place where Jesus was impaled was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, in Latin, in Greek.

All those who want to make a pleasing appearance in the flesh are the ones that try to compel YOU to get circumcised, only that they may not be persecuted for the torture stake of the Christ, Jesus. For not even do those who are getting circumcised keep the Law themselves, but they want YOU to be circumcised that they may have cause for boasting in YOUR flesh. Never may it occur that I should boast, except in the torture stake of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been impaled to me and I to the world.

You know, something just struck me. If we follow the Jehovah’s Witnesses in rendering stavros/crux as “(torture) stake” I’d hate to see what the hymn Crux Fidelis would look like in translation. “Faithful Stake, above all other, one and only noble Tree…” Not to mention that we’d have to cut out the phrase “Lofty tree, bend down thy branches, to embrace thy sacred load.”

As an aside, I found their rendition of the soldiers’ mockery - “Good day, you King of the Jews!” - to be unintentionally funny (first of all, what’s ‘good’ about it? ). Of course, because the Greek chaire is apparently “good day”, Gabriel says to Mary “Good day, highly favored one, Jehovah is with you.”

 

[JRRTFAN]

We’re not over yet.

Again in reply Pilate was saying to them: “What, then, shall I do with him whom YOU call the king of the Jews?” Once more they cried out: “Impale him!” But Pilate went on to say to them: “Why, what bad thing did he do?” Still they cried out all the more: “Impale him!” At that Pilate, wishing to satisfy the crowd, released Bar·ab´bas to them, and, after having Jesus whipped, he handed him over to be impaled.

Now as they led him away, they laid hold of Simon, a certain native of Cy·re´ne, coming from the country, and they placed the torture stake upon him to bear it behind Jesus.

Then they took charge of Jesus. And, bearing the torture stake for himself, he went out to the so-called Skull Place, which is called Gol´go·tha in Hebrew; and there they impaled him, and two other [men] with him, one on this side and one on that, but Jesus in the middle. Pilate wrote a title also and put it on the torture stake. It was written: “Jesus the Naz·a·rene´ the King of the Jews.” Therefore many of the Jews read this title, because the place where Jesus was impaled was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, in Latin, in Greek.

All those who want to make a pleasing appearance in the flesh are the ones that try to compel YOU to get circumcised, only that they may not be persecuted for the torture stake of the Christ, Jesus. For not even do those who are getting circumcised keep the Law themselves, but they want YOU to be circumcised that they may have cause for boasting in YOUR flesh. Never may it occur that I should boast, except in the torture stake of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been impaled to me and I to the world.

You know, something just struck me. If we follow the Jehovah’s Witnesses in rendering stavros/crux as “(torture) stake” I’d hate to see what the hymn Crux Fidelis would look like in translation. “Faithful Stake, above all other, one and only noble Tree…” Not to mention that we’d have to cut out the phrase “Lofty tree, bend down thy branches, to embrace thy sacred load.”

As an aside, I found their rendition of the soldiers’ mockery - “Good day, you King of the Jews!” - to be unintentionally funny (first of all, what’s ‘good’ about it? ). Of course, because the Greek chaire is apparently “good day”, Gabriel says to Mary “Good day, highly favored one, Jehovah is with you.”

Yew ar a reglir bibhul skolar an ort tuh rite a buk fer the witnissis tuh youse in preechin’!

 

[PJM]

=FirstCalled;7150952]I was reading one of those pamphlets about what the bible really teaches from the Mormons and it states in there that the proper greek word used in the bible for what Jesus was crucified was on a stake, one of their reasons for not carrying crosses, using it in worship, etc.
So does someone have a response to this?

Matt.10: [38] and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

**Matt.27: .[32] **As they went out, they came upon a man of Cyre’ne, Simon by name; this man they compelled to carry his cross. 40] and saying, "You who would destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross." [42] "He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come **down now from the cross, **and we will believe in him.

 

[Paul83]

Hi all. Having come across this post i thought it may be helpful if i, as a long time member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormon or LDS church) shared some thoughts to try and clear up this misunderstanding.

Firstly, the pamphlet mentioned at the start of this post did not come from the LDS church but rather it came from the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I have no doubt whatsoever there are a great many Jehovah’s Witnesses who are very committed to living the gospel, and i admire everyone who strives to serve the Lord. However, their beliefs are very different to ours.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have their own translation of the bible, which specifically mentions a torture spike. Whereas we study the King James version.

For anyone who is interested, the LDS church has recently made a collection of short, and extremely moving “bible videos” which are each based directly on passages from the King James version. The video which depicts the crucifixion shows The Lord on a “t” shaped cross. These videos can be viewed on www.lds.org and on YouTube and really promote faith in, and great gratitude for the Savior, his sacrifice, and his perfect example.

As just one final thought, it is true that our churches don’t have crosses inside but that is only because we believe in the risen Lord.

Kind regards, Paul.

 

[pablope]

Hi all. Having come across this post i thought it may be helpful if i, as a long time member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormon or LDS church) shared some thoughts to try and clear up this misunderstanding.

As just one final thought, it is true that our churches don’t have crosses inside but that is only because we believe in the risen Lord.Kind regards, Paul.

Welcome.

Let me just cite one thing…having no crosses is a tradition inherited from protestants…not early Christianity.

The CC preaches Christ crucified…as has always been:

biblechristiansociety.com/apologetics/two_minute#5

First of all, you would want to check out 1st Corinthians, chapter 1, verse 23. Paul says, “…but we preach Christ crucified…” Why does Paul preach Christ crucified? Doesn’t he know Jesus has been raised from the dead? Of course he does! But, he knows that it is through the power of the crucified Christ on the cross that the bonds of sin and death are broken. As Paul says in verse 24, Christ crucified is the “power of God”.

1 Cor 2:2, “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” Again, didn’t Paul know that Jesus had risen from the dead? Of course, he did.

Paul preaches Christ crucified because an empty cross has no power. The cross that bears the beaten, battered, and bloodied body of Jesus Christ, however, that cross is the “power of God”. This is why, we “keep Jesus on the cross,” because we, too, preach Christ crucified. The Crucifix reminds us not only of God’s power, but also His love for us - giving His only begotten Son up for suffering and death.

Also, here in this life we do not share so much in the glory of the Resurrection, as we do in the suffering of Jesus on the cross; after all, we must take up our cross daily if we are to follow Jesus, as it says in Lk 9:23.

And, we must die with Christ in order to live with Him as Romans 6:8 tells us. Where did Christ die? On the cross. The Crucifix serves to remind us of these things.

One other passage to keep in mind is Galatians 3:1, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?” Did you catch that? Jesus was publicly portrayed, before their “eyes”, as being crucified. Sounds kind of like they may have been looking at a Crucifix, doesn’t it?

 

[Paul83]

Hi Pablope, thanks for the welcome.

I love the scriptures you shared. I think about the crucifixion daily with a deep sense of gratitude.

I meant no disrespect by my comment and didn’t intend it to sound haughty. I would never want to challenge or disrespect anyone’s faith in the Lord. I only meant to be honest and clear as the post was originally about the LDS church. Also an earlier comment mentioned the LDS church doesn’t have crosses, so in the interest of openness i thought i would acknowledge that this is true, but certainly not because we deny that the Lord died on the cross for mankind. I, like you, believe the atonement (including the crucifixion and resurrection) Is the most important thing in human history.

Best wishes, Paul.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

From my understanding Crucifiction originaly came from a punishment for unrepentant reculsatrent slaves.
The victem had a beam tied across his shoulders and in this manner was beaten through the streets of the village with his master publicaly calling out his crimes, he was then hung on an upright stake by the means of the beam upon his shoulders and the towns people would humiliate him by throwing rotten food etc much like the old english stock’s. It did not always result in death as slaves were valuable property.
The Romans increased this form of punishment by having permanent scaffolds out side the city limits and after forcing the victem in the same manner through the streets with the beam across his shouders, would then nail them to the beam and scaffold, with there crimes placed on a sign above them, this became a capitol punishment with death being assured by the breaking of the legs.
These scaffolds were perminent fixtures outside Roman towns as a constant reminder to all peoples to obey Roman law much like Gallows were in England.