Was Jesus God?

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Justice2006

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To Trinity Dogma Holders:

Are you saying that:

The Father = God = Jesus ??

If yes, then Jesus (God) was lying in:

Mattthew 24:36
**But of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father [God] alone. **
[Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 24]](Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 24])

Mark 13-32
**But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father [God]. **
[Douay-Rheims Bible, Mark Chapter 13]](Douay-Rheims Bible, Mark Chapter 13])

Howcome Jesus = God Almighty, did not know when the judgment day will come ?​

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John17:1-5

1 These things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said: Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.
3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.
[Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 17]](Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 17])

So,

thy Son = thy servant (servant of God), Right?

Now, Jesus = God Almighty was praying to Himself?
God gave/assigned a job to Himself to do? And when He acomplished/finished His own given job/mission to Himself, He siad to Himself "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. ?​

Is this what you believe?

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Justice2006 said:

To Trinity Dogma Holders:

Are you saying that:
The Father = God = Jesus ??

If yes, then Jesus (God) was lying in:
Mattthew 24:3
But of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father[God] alone.

Mark 13-32 But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father[God].

Howcome Jesus = God Almighty, did not know when the judgment day will come ?
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Let’s take the New Testament in whole. The claims he makes to his divinity are numerous…check it out:

(from www.scripturecatholic.com)

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, “you shall not tempt the Lord your God” in reference to Himself.

Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, “You heard it said…but I say to you…”

Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, “Lord, Lord.” Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.

Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is “Lord of the Sabbath.” He is the Lord of God’s law which means He is God.

Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself “Lord.” “The Lord has need of them.”

Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.

Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God “Abba,” Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus’ unique intimacy with the Father.

Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said “tell how much God has done for you.” And the man declared how much Jesus did.

Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.

Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.

John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.

John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.

John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, “whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.”

John 6:38 - Jesus says, “For I have come down from heaven.”

John 8:12 - Jesus says “I am the light of the world.” - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.

John 8:19 - Jesus says, “if you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.

John 8:58 - Jesus says, “Before Abraham was, I AM.” Exodus 3:14 - “I AM” means “Yahweh,” which means God.

John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.

John 10:30 - Jesus says, “I and the Father are one.” They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus’ statement in John 14:28, “the Father is greater than I,” cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus’ statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.

John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is “the Son of God.”

John 10:38; 14:10 - “the Father is in me and I am in the Father” means the Father and Son are equal.

John 12:45 - Jesus says, “He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.” God the Father is equal to God the Son.

John 13:13 - Jesus says, “You call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM.”

John 14:6 - Jesus says “I am the way, and the truth and the life.” Only God is the way, the truth and the life.

John 16:15 - Jesus says, “all things that the Father has are Mine.” Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.

John 16:28 - Jesus says that “He came from the Father and has come into the world.”

John 17:5,24 - Jesus’ desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.

John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying “My Father and your Father.”

Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the “Alpha and the Omega.” In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the “Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end.” The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.​
 
Mr. Tmaque,

Are you saying that the verses I qouted from the Gospels are false and verses qpouted by you are true?

which ones are interpolations?

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Tmaque:
Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, “you shall not tempt the Lord your God” in reference to Himself.
Matthew 4:7-11
Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Again the devil took him up into a very high mountain, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them, And said to him: All these will I give thee, if falling down thou wilt adore me. Then Jesus saith to him: Begone, Satan: for it is written, The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil left him; and behold angels came and ministered to him.

Footnote:“Shewed him”… That is, pointed out to him where each kingdom lay; and set forth in words what was most glorious and admirable in each of them. Or also set before his eyes, as it were in a large map, a lively representation of all those kingdoms.
[Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 4]](Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 4])

You mean devil knew more than God thus he shewed him all the kingdoms of the world?
What kind of God do you believe, who does not know His own Kingdoms of the World that He created Himself? And as I mentioned He did even know the when the **judgment day ** will come?

Then God told devil: “Begone, Satan: for it is written, The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and **him only ** shalt thou serve.”?

So, God Almighty is reminding devil that "it is written…? Written by Who? By an another God?​

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Justice2006:
To Trinity Dogma Holders:

Are you saying that:

The Father = God = Jesus ??
No. We are not saying that. We have never saying that.

If you’ve been keeping track of other threads you would know this. You give the “father = God = Jesus” thing in this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=100085

I responded to you. You then asked some questions.

I responded again, giving you links to the relevant sections of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I asked not that you believe as we do, but that you would read these sections and actually learn what it is we believe before coming back and telling us, falsely, what it is that we believe.

You obviously haven’t done this. If you had bothered to learn what it is we believe and studied this, you would not have posted as you have now done.

Please, I ask you again. Go away for a while. Study. Learn what we believe. Then if you have questions, if you have problems with what we believe, return. Ask the questions. State your problems.

But please, stop being so misinformed about us. Do not be obstinate in your misinformation.

Learn what we believe and why we believe it. Only then will we be able to have a real reasoned discussion. As it is the discussion is running in circles as we are repeatedly told that we believe Jesus to be the Father.
 
Lets back up here. First of all justice, YOU HAVE IT ALL WRONG!!! The Doctrine of the Trinity states that God is comprised of three (as in TRI…hence “Trinity”) equally and distinctly separate yet completely unified parts. Those three parts are : Father , Son, and Holy Spirit. Your initial formula is not correct. It should technically be Father = Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ; Son = Father Son and Holy Spirit ; and Holy Spirit = Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three distinct entities form ONE God, and since They are One, then no one part can exist independent of the other two. But, since Im sure you’re using the Quaran to formulate this whole episode, and the Quaran IS NOT EVEN CAPABLE OF GETTING EVEN BASIC CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE CORRECT, I certainly wouldn’t expect you to get something like this right either. Please, continue with your regularly scheduled debate…
 
Genesis 1:26

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…"
 
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Justice2006:
thy Son = thy servant (servant of God), Right?
There’s been a thread about this too.

Yes, the Greek word “pais”, usually translated as Son, can be, and sometimes is translated as “servant”.

However, “pais” is not the only word by which Jesus is described as the Son is it?

The more normal word is “huios”, by which we see that Jesus is the “only begotten Son”, or as the creed we say states “begotten not made”.

I haven’t got time to get into long Greek studies or to discuss the difference between Christ’s sonship and the way that we are adopted as sons of God. So here’s a few paragraphs from the Catechism:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a2.htm#III
 
Little Mary said:
“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”

Hi,
What is you point? Are you at the false impression that “US” and “OUR” means pluraty/Trinity of God?

They are Majestic Plurals/Plurals of Respect and nothing to with Trinity dogma since God is ONE

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You can’t have it both ways here, Justice2006. Either the Bible is corrupted or it’s not. If it is corrupted, as you stated elsewhere, why are you using quotes from it to support your topic? :confused:

If you think that you are going to find anything in the Bible that contradicts what the Church teaches you are mistaken.

But in answer to the thread title, yes, Jesus is Divine.
 
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Justice2006:
Hi,
What is you point? Are you at the false impression that “US” and “OUR” means pluraty/Trinity of God?

They are Majestic Plurals/Plurals of Respect and nothing to with Trinity dogma since God is ONE

.
Get your head out of the Quran and stop basing all your arguments on cliched catch phrases for a second, will you? The Jews don’t even have the royal “we” like Arabs.
 
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Justice2006:
Hi,
What is you point? Are you at the false impression that “US” and “OUR” means pluraty/Trinity of God?

They are Majestic Plurals/Plurals of Respect and nothing to with Trinity dogma since God is ONE

.
Where in the bible does it say they are majestic plurals?

Don’t you have anything better to do than to beat this to death? Methinks you need a hobby.
 
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Justice2006:
Are you saying that:

The Father = God = Jesus ??
That’s not the doctrine of the Trinity.

“Father” is the name of a Divine Person.
“God” is the term for the One divine Nature.
“Jesus” is the name of the incarnate Word, having a human and divine nature.

To put it correctly:

God is One. One entity. One nature. One essence.

Like human beings and angels, God’s nature is expressed not simply as an object, but in personhood. With God, his one nature is expressed in three persons, whose names are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the name we give to the Son when he became incarnate in a human nature.

So when speaking of Jesus, you must distinguish both the human and a divine nature. When Jesus prays to the Father, it is one person speaking to another, not Jesus speaking to himself, since “self” is about the person, not the nature.
 
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Eden:
You can’t have it both ways here, Justice2006. Either the Bible is corrupted or it’s not. If it is corrupted, as you stated elsewhere, why are you using quotes from it to support your topic? :confused:
Hi Eden,

If Islam/Muslims have claimed that *Judeo-Christian scriptures * are 100% false/corrupted, then you are right in telling me: “You can’t have it both ways here”.

But, when Muslims say/claim: existing/discovered Judeo-Chrsitian are corrupted; they did not mean 100% false.

Like for example, right now I am talking to you by assuming you are not 100% corrupted and you do believe in some precepts which are common to the whole humanity, such as Universal Truths. So, in order to show you where/why you went wrong in your beliefs other than Universal Truths, I can refer/use some of the Universal Truths to make you realise where/why you went wrong, because you and I have some common premise/ground. Can you restrict me that I cannot refer to/use Universal Truths at all, simply because you too happened to believe in them and I have some disgreements with some of your other beliefs/precepts?

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Justice2006:
Hi Eden,

If Islam/Muslims have claimed that *Judeo-Christian scriptures *are 100% false/corrupted, then you are right in telling me: “You can’t have it both ways here”.

.
So, you do not believe that the books of Mark and Matthew are corrupted (see your original post) or are just certain passages in Mark and Matthew uncorrupted and certain passages not? And what is the process by which one determines which passages in Mark and Matthew are corrupt and which are not?
 
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Eden:
So, you do not believe that the books of Mark and Matthew are corrupted (see your original post) or are just certain passages in Mark and Matthew uncorrupted and certain passages not?
The manipulation is all over and not just in the four co-called canonical gosples. These gospels were not verified by Jesus nor his actual disciples. They are written by UNKNOWN authors. In them there appears to have some truth.
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Eden:
And what is the process by which one determines which passages in Mark and Matthew are corrupt and which are not?
Dear Eden,

This is the real challenge for you to figure out the truth from the “falsehood of lying pens of the Scribes” and corruption of Unknown Authors of the Greek NT, because unfortunately thats all you have and all the previous gospels/books that were in circulation prior to the so-called “cononization” in 4th century are lost/destroyed for various reasons. One of the reasons appears to conceal the whole truth of the Jesus’ Message, in order to conveniently accomodate pagan/Greek philosophies.

A critical and objective study/reaserch can help you to find out the truth but you have to have patience, time and you must keep aside your Chruch/pre-conceived ideas/dogmas/indoctrination while you are at an honest independent faithfull research.

If you don’t have enough time to carry out an honest research you can atleast read these two books [Available free ONLINE]:

The Bible, The Qur’an and Science
by Dr. Maurice Bucaille
THE HOLY SCRIPTURES EXAMINED IN THE LIGHT
OF MODERN KNOWLEDGE
Translated from French
by Alastair D. Pannell and The Author
[witness-pioneer.org]](witness-pioneer.org])

** What is the Origin of Man?**
The Answers of Science and the Holy Scriptures
Dr Maurice Bucaille
[witness-pioneer.org]](witness-pioneer.org])

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Justice,

How have you been a member for one week and have 198 posts? Do you flood every message board that you go on?

And one other things, the way you write, using upteen different font and whatnot, is incredibly annoying to read. Therefore, I haven’t read about 99% of what you have written. So, I guess, I probably won’t read the response to my above questions, but I think that they will be interesting to others.

Thanks.
 
Oh, your count just went up in the last 10 seconds. Must be busy spamming this site.
 
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