Was Jesus God?

[chb03c]

Little Mary:

Where in the bible does it say they are majestic plurals?

Don’t you have anything better to do than to beat this to death? Methinks you need a hobby.

Actually Justice is right about this fact for once. However this fact does not discredit the doctorine of the Trinity.

Since Justice was the one to point out the majestic titles maybe he can relate to the Trinity in the since that God has a literal Majestic form in the since that he is refermed to in third person. Just as the Majestic titles suggest.

 

[chb03c]

Justice,

You have countinuously asked us questions about the Trinity. Maybe you could explain to us, without Bible verse and on a philisophical level, what you think is wrong with the Trinity.

 

[exoflare]

chb03c:

Actually Justice is right about this fact for once. However this fact does not discredit the doctorine of the Trinity.

My friend was talking to me about this yesterday. Apparently the Jews really DID have the majestic plurals. Oh well.

 

[BryPGuy89]

Justice2006:

John17:1-5

1 These things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said: Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.
3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.
[Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 17]](Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 17])

So,

thy Son = thy servant (servant of God), Right?

Now, Jesus = God Almighty was praying to Himself?
God gave/assigned a job to Himself to do? And when He acomplished/finished His own given job/mission to Himself, He siad to Himself "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. ?​

Is this what you believe?

.

The whole principle behind the trinity is that the Holy Spirit, God the Father Almighty, and Jesus the son, are all of God, but seperate identities of the same thing. It doens’t make a lot of sence three of the exact same thing, but still different? A lot of things of God don’t make sence that is the point of God being all powerful, He doesn’t have to abide by our rules and make sence to us. As human I can only grasp the simplist aspects of it, but I live in faith and trust that I may come to understand the fullness of God if I am judged worthy at my time of passing.

 

[exoflare]

The whole Muslim thing about the Trinity and “three persons, one God” meaning “three Gods” is just as absurd as saying that each side of a triangle is a triangle in itself.

 

[Myangel]

ChiFaithful:

Justice,

How have you been a member for one week and have 198 posts? Do you flood every message board that you go on?

And one other things, the way you write, using upteen different font and whatnot, is incredibly annoying to read. Therefore, I haven’t read about 99% of what you have written. So, I guess, I probably won’t read the response to my above questions, but I think that they will be interesting to others.

Thanks.

:nope: Have you read all of his posts?

 

[Tmaque]

Justice2006:

Mr. Tmaque,

Are you saying that the verses I qouted from the Gospels are false and verses qpouted by you are true?

which ones are interpolations?

.

No,
All the verses in the Bible are true. You are picking certain verses and taking them out of context. If you take all of Jesus’ sayings as a whole, you come to see the doctrine of the Trinity. That’s where it came from…Jesus himself. If you take verses out of context you can make the Bible say “there is no God”, and many other ridiculous things.

 

[JSmitty2005]

This is from another thread, and another poster, but I think that they sum it up well:

proclaim:

be Real And Tell It Like It Is…
Jesus Is God.
Beleive It Or Not…thank U

Tell it like it is, proclaim!

 

[proclaim]

I TRULY CONCCUR WITH U BryPGUY89…THAT IS THE CORRECT ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION…AMEN
GOD BLESS U ALL IN THE NAME OF JESUS…

 

[Justice2006]

Tmaque:

No,
All the verses in the Bible are true. You are picking certain verses and taking them out of context. **If you take all of Jesus’ sayings as a whole, ** you come to see the doctrine of the Trinity. That’s where it came from…Jesus himself. If you take verses out of context you can make the Bible say “there is no God”, and many other ridiculous things.

Hello Mr. Tmaque,

Good to know that you too like to take all of Jesus’ sayings as a whole.

But I doubt you really ever did this to know Jesus’ Message. Because if you do without preconceived ideas/dogma of your Church, then you will see that He is not claiming any Divinty nor he is part of a supposed Trinity dogma. He is actually calling you to follow/keep commandments of God who is his and your God. Jesus had a God. He is Son of God means godly person in Hebrew. All Jews are clalled gods.

In other words Jesus is calling you to submit your will to God’s will. This submission in Arabic we call Islam. So when a person submits his will to his God, he is called a **Muslim ** (in Arabic).

For example, Jihad means struggle. And the person who does Jihad is called Mujahid.

And Islam means submission and the person who submits is called Muslim.

When babies are born to the parents of any faith–legitimate/illegitiamte – they all are born as Muslims because they all submit to the **will of God ** because they have no free choice until the age of reason. Thus if they die in their infancy, they all go to heaven (paradise) no matter to whom they were born.

.

 

[Tmaque]

Justice2006:

Hello Mr. Tmaque,

Good to know that you too like to take all of Jesus’ sayings as a whole.

But I doubt you really ever did this to know Jesus’ Message. Because if you do without preconceived ideas/dogma of your Church, then you will see that He is not claiming any Divinty nor he is part of a supposed Trinity dogma. He is actually calling you to follow/keep commandments of God who is his and your God. Jesus had a God. He is Son of God means godly person in Hebrew. All Jews are clalled gods.

In other words Jesus is calling you to submit your will to God’s will. This submission in Arabic we call Islam. So when a person submits his will to his God, he is called a **Muslim ** (in Arabic).

For example, Jihad means struggle. And the person who does Jihad is called Mujahid.

And Islam means submission and the person who submits is called Muslim.

When babies are born to the parents of any faith–legitimate/illegitiamte – they all are born as Muslims because they all submit to the **will of God ** because they have no free choice until the age of reason. Thus if they die in their infancy, they all go to heaven (paradise) no matter to whom they were born.

.

Justice,

I was an atheist before I before I became a Christian. I had no preconceived ideas. I looked into Islam and I found it simply implausible. Christianity however, makes complete sense to me.

It’s clear that the New Testament is firm on Jesus’ divinity. Are you saying that it was changed to make it this way? If so, then the whole book is useless. It’s as useless for you to claim Jesus’ non-divinity as it is for me to use it to claim His divinity. If that’s where we’re going there is nothing to discuss here. We should instead be discussing the proof, or lack thereof, of changes concerning the accuracy of the New Testament writings.

 

[Crumpy]

History is important here.

If I understand it correctly, Islam arose when the heresy of Arianism was very widespread. Arianism denied that Jesus was God. This is where the Muslims got this idea.

Arianism is alive today, iin some “Christian” communities and in non-Christian communities. Judaism is something altogether different. Arianism is heresy that first arose within Christianity.

Islam is based on a selected (thus heretical) set of Jewish and Christian beliefs. Muslims will not admit this outright. If Jesus was God (which He is) then Islam is false (which it is).

There’s a lot at stake here for “Justice2006” There is no point in debating him (her) only to present the matter in prayer.

 

[Booklover]

Justice2006:

Hello Mr. Tmaque,

Good to know that you too like to take all of Jesus’ sayings as a whole.

But I doubt you really ever did this to know Jesus’ Message. Because if you do without preconceived ideas/dogma of your Church, then you will see that He is not claiming any Divinty nor he is part of a supposed Trinity dogma. He is actually calling you to follow/keep commandments of God who is his and your God. Jesus had a God. He is Son of God means godly person in Hebrew. All Jews are clalled gods.

In other words Jesus is calling you to submit your will to God’s will. This submission in Arabic we call Islam. So when a person submits his will to his God, he is called a **Muslim **(in Arabic).

For example, Jihad means struggle. And the person who does Jihad is called Mujahid.

And Islam means submission and the person who submits is called Muslim.

When babies are born to the parents of any faith–legitimate/illegitiamte – they all are born as Muslims because they all submit to the **will of God **because they have no free choice until the age of reason. Thus if they die in their infancy, they all go to heaven (paradise) no matter to whom they were born

.

.

First of all, I’m really beginning to be bored by your constant attacks on Jesus’ divinity. For someone who supposedly respects all prophets, you display quite a hatred of Jesus! Of course, he’s the rival of your dubious “prophet”! So Muslims just pay lip service to him as has been said before! More taqqiya to fool us Christians. If you were really so sure of Mohammed, you wouldn’t have to resort to all these cheap insults! I can already hear Muslims saying “we are not Muslims if we don’t honor all prophets” but I’m not taken in by your protestations.

There were no such people as Muslims until Mohammed invented Islam! That’s just more of your wishful thinking!

As far as having “free choice”: which I suppose you mean “free will”, Muslims don’t have any. Free will is a gift from God, but Muslims deny that. When you have to live your lives following an Islamic book of rules that dictates how you have to spend 24 hours a day, you lose your identity, your humanity, your individuality, your personality and become flesh and blood robots, all programmed to do the same things over and over by one of the most tyrannical “cults” this world has ever known, Islam! Islam is your worst enemy, but you’ve been so indoctrinated and brainwashed by it, that you can’t tell the forest for the trees. Just like crazy people, who can’t tell they’re crazy, or like those who have alzheimer’s, and don’t know they do.

Vickie

 

[JSmitty2005]

Crumpy:

Islam is based on a selected (thus heretical) set of Jewish and Christian beliefs.

Also with some arabic paganism thrown in there too.

 

[LilyM]

JSmitty2005:

Tell it like it is, proclaim!

proclaim’s quote really does put it in a nutshell - wish I’d thought of it myself. Oh well, I will, I will …

 

[Wildgraywolf]

When a Muslim hears “Trinity” he thinks: 1+1+1=3 (an expression of simple linear thought). Although his math is correct he his applying an incorrect algorithm.

When a Christian hears “Trinity” he thinks: (111)=1 (requires some dimensional thought); this would be a “correct” algorithm to describe the dogma of Trinity. Each 1’s position is easily discernable yet the product is always 1.

If anyone from a non-Christian religion seeks to understand the dogma of the Trinity, they need to hang up fundamental literalism (addition) and adopt a more dimensional approach (multiplication). God, after all, isn’t linear and I think it’s also scripturally sound to say that God prefers to multiply things rather than add them.

Jews, Christians and Muslims all say “there is ONE GOD” and all would agree, it is simply that God has given Christians a more detailed revelation of Himself.

Here’s some Old Testament verses to check out:

Gen 1:26* Then God said, "And now we will make human beings; they will be like us and resemble us.*

Gen 3:22* Then the LORD God said, "Now these human beings have become like one of us and have knowledge of what is good and what is bad.*

Gen 11:7* Let us go down and mix up their language so that they will not understand each other."*

Gen 18:1-2* The LORD appeared to Abraham at the sacred trees of Mamre. As Abraham was sitting at the entrance of his tent during the hottest part of the day, he looked up and saw three men standing there. Bowing down with his face touching the ground,*

 

[chb03c]

Justice,

What gave you thr authority to interperate what the Bible is saying? You are a Muslim, you have the authority to interperate what the Quran(spelling) says, but you have NO authority at all to come to Christians and tell them what they believe. We are Christians, we know what we believe and do not believe in.

Enough said!

 

[Justice2006]

Wildgraywolf:

When a Muslim hears “Trinity” he thinks: 1+1+1=3 (an expression of simple linear thought). Although his math is correct he his applying an incorrect algorithm.

Mr. Wildgraywolf,

No, Islam is not saying that Trinity means 1+1+1=3
Nor any knowledgeable Muslim will say this because the Koran is telling us do not say God is one of the Three. Because the Koran is refuting what those AnNasaara (Nazarites) used to say at the time of Koranic Revelation.

Now let me clarify the baselessness of your “mathematical logic”.

Lets assume:

The Father=A
The Son= B
The Holy Spirit=C

to say A+B+C=3, all three entities must be equal to one, mathematically/physically. Otherwise the total sum of these entities cannot be three.

In other words, mathematically the equation must be:

The Father=The Son=The Holy Spirit
i.e., A=B=C

and it must be:

A=B, A=C, B=A, B=C, C=A and C=B

You may say, isn’t A=B and B=A is samething? I would say not necessarily. So you must agree with the following premise in order to prove 1+1+1=3 wrong:

A <=> B <=>C

So all these equations ( i.e., A=B, A=C, B=A, B=C, C=A and C=B ) must be assumed true, in order to prove 1+1+1=3 wrong.

Since you don’t believe that A=B, A=C, B=A, B=C, C=A, as such you cannot say that whoever say 1+1+1=3 is wrong. As such you have no right to blame whoever say 1+1+1=3. Because it is you who first coined the idea of Trinity, that led people to think whether 1+1+1=3.

Now. lets see your next proposed theory:

Wildgraywolf:

When a Christian hears “Trinity” he thinks: (111)=1 (requires some dimensional thought); this would be a “correct” algorithm to describe the dogma of Trinity. Each 1’s position is easily discernable yet the product is always 1.

Here, to prove 111=1, you have to agree with these mathematical/physical premise:

A=B, A=C, B=A, B=C, C=A and C=B

Can you agree with all these premises?
If you say yes, then, do you realise what you are actually saying? You are saying:

The Father (A) =The Son (B) =The Holy Spirit (C)

It means:

The Father (A) =The Son (B)
The Father (A)=The Holy Spirit (C)
The Son (B)=The Father (A)
The Son (B) =The Holy Spirit (C)
The Holy Spirit (C)=The Father (A)
The Holy Spirit (C)=The Son (B)

Can you really say all these, as per your ancient Catholic Trinity dogma? [Keep in mind the ancient *Heresies] Ofcourse you cannot agree with the above uquations because:

Holy Father is not **The Son ** neither The Son is Holy Spirit nor the Holy Spirit is The Father

Thus you have no mathematical/physical base/premise at all to use Math…

So your logic to use the formula: 111=1, is failed. Because in order to use Math, you have to agree with all the fundamantals/premises of Math on which you are erecting/wants to erect the building of your Trinity dogma.

.

 

[chb03c]

Justice2006:

Mr. Wildgraywolf,

No, Islam is not saying that Trinity means 1+1+1=3
Nor any knowledgeable Muslim will say this because the Koran is telling us do not say God is one of the Three. Because the Koran is refuting what those AnNasaara (Nazarites) used to say at the time of Koranic Revelation.

Now let me clarify the baselessness of your “mathematical logic”.

Lets assume:The Father=A
The Son= B
The Holy Spirit=Cto say A+B+C=3, all three entities must be equal to one, mathematically/physically. Otherwise the total sum of these entities cannot be three.

In other words, mathematically the equation must be:

The Father=The Son=The Holy Spirit
i.e., A=B=C

and it must be:

A=B, A=C, B=A, B=C, C=A and C=B

You may say, isn’t A=B and B=A is samething? I would say not necessarily. So you must agree with the following premise in order to prove 1+1+1=3 wrong:

A <=> B <=>C

So all these equations ( i.e., A=B, A=C, B=A, B=C, C=A and C=B ) must be assumed true, in order to prove 1+1+1=3 wrong.

Since you don’t believe that A=B, A=C, B=A, B=C, C=A, as such you cannot say that whoever say 1+1+1=3 is wrong. As such you have no right to blame whoever say 1+1+1=3. Because it is you who first coined the idea of Trinity, that led people to think whether 1+1+1=3.

Now. lets see your next proposed theory:When a Christian hears “Trinity” he thinks: (111)=1 (requires some dimensional thought); this would be a “correct” algorithm to describe the dogma of Trinity. Each 1’s position is easily discernable yet the product is always 1.

Here, to prove 111=1, you have to agree with these mathematical/physical premise:

A=B, A=C, B=A, B=C, C=A and C=B

Can you agree with all these premises?
If you say yes, then, do you realise what you are actually saying? You are saying:The Father (A) =The Son (B) =The Holy Spirit (C)

It means:

The Father (A) =The Son (B)
The Father (A)=The Holy Spirit (C)
The Son (B)=The Father (A)
The Son (B) =The Holy Spirit (C)
The Holy Spirit (C)=The Father (A)
The Holy Spirit (C)=The Son (B)Can you really say all these, as per your ancient Catholic Trinity dogma? [Keep in mind the ancient *Heresies

] Ofcourse you cannot agree with the above uquations because:

Holy Father is not **The Son ** neither The Son is Holy Spirit nor the Holy Spirit is The Father

Thus you have no mathematical/physical base/premise at all to use Math…

So your logic to use the formula: 111=1, is failed. Because in order to use Math, you have to agree with all the fundamantals/premises of Math on which you are erecting/wants to erect the building of your Trinity dogma.

.

I think you missed to point of the math analogy.

 

[Justice2006]

chb03c:

I think you missed to point of the math analogy.

And what was that point, I missed?