Was Jesus holding Jesus?

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Vico said:
Pope Paul VI wrote in 1965:

To avoid misunderstanding this sacramental presence which surpasses the laws of nature and constitutes the greatest miracle of its kind[50] we must listen with docility to the voice of the teaching and praying Church. This voice, which constantly echoes the voice of Christ, assures us that the way Christ is made present in this Sacrament is none other than by the change of the whole substance of the bread into His Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into His Blood, and that this unique and truly wonderful change the Catholic Church rightly calls transubstantiation.[51] As a result of transubstantiation, the species of bread and wine undoubtedly take on a new meaning and a new finality, for they no longer remain ordinary bread and ordinary wine, but become the sign of something sacred, the sign of a spiritual food. However, the reason they take on this new significance and this new finality is simply because they contain a new “reality” which we may justly term ontological. Not that there lies under those species what was already there before, but something quite different; and that not only because of the faith of the Church, but in objective reality, since after the change of the substance or nature of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, nothing remains of the bread and wine but the appearances, under which Christ, whole and entire, in His physical “reality” is bodily present, although not in the same way that bodies are present in a given place.

papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6myster.htm
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What did he mean by the same way that bodies are present in a given place?
 
Faith1960 said:
What did he mean by the same way that bodies are present in a given place?
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The Blessed Sacrament is Jesus Christ, so can we call the Blessed Sacrament a human person or a human being because the physical reality of Christ is corporeally present in the Sacrament of the Eucharist? No, it must be the person of the Son of God, as the Catechism states that:468 After the Council of Chalcedon, some made of Christ’s human nature a kind of personal subject. Against them, the fifth ecumenical council, at Constantinople in 553, confessed that "there is but one hypostasis [or person], which is our Lord Jesus Christ, one of the Trinity."93 Thus everything in Christ’s human nature is to be attributed to his divine person as its proper subject, not only his miracles but also his sufferings and even his death: "He who was crucified in the flesh, our Lord Jesus Christ, is true God, Lord of glory, and one of the Holy Trinity."94

This includes the physical reality of Jesus Christ.

Here is the Vatican translation:
  1. To avoid any misunderstanding of this type of presence, which goes beyond the laws of nature and constitutes the greatest miracle of its kind, (50) we have to listen with docility to the voice of the teaching and praying Church. Her voice, which constantly echoes the voice of Christ, assures us that the way in which Christ becomes present in this Sacrament is through the conversion of the whole substance of the bread into His body and of the whole substance of the wine into His blood, a unique and truly wonderful conversion that the Catholic Church fittingly and properly calls transubstantiation. (51) As a result of transubstantiation, the species of bread and wine undoubtedly take on a new signification and a new finality, for they are no longer ordinary bread and wine but instead a sign of something sacred and a sign of spiritual food; but they take on this new signification, this new finality, precisely because they contain a new “reality” which we can rightly call ontological. For what now lies beneath the aforementioned species is not what was there before, but something completely different; and not just in the estimation of Church belief but in reality, since once the substance or nature of the bread and wine has been changed into the body and blood of Christ, nothing remains of the bread and the wine except for the species—beneath which Christ is present whole and entire in His physical “reality,” corporeally present, although not in the manner in which bodies are in a place.
 
Luke 24:30-31. This was after His resurrection, correct? That was a supernatural event. Is Jesus holding Himself prior to His death also supernatural?
 
Vico,

Yes, that’s what I was getting at – Christ isn’t present in the physical mode which we’re accustomed to (i.e., not “in the manner in which bodies are in a place”), but in a sacramental mode (“a new ‘reality’ which we can rightly call ontological”). It’s really Christ, but not in the sensible species (which we might identify as the physical species). 👍
 
Faith1960 said:
Luke 24:30-31. This was after His resurrection, correct? That was a supernatural event. Is Jesus holding Himself prior to His death also supernatural?
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Anyone? Or is it because He lives, even then, out of space and time?
 
Faith1960 said:
Anyone? Or is it because He lives, even then, out of space and time?
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Yes. When he offered his death to God as satisfaction for our sins it was in eternity, not within time and space.

This is why we can apply Christ’s redemption to us today, as well as the Eucharist, which is a re-presenting of his one sacrifice.

Jesus wanted everyone in every time and place to be able to draw on the power of the Eucharist, which is the offering of his one sacrifice.

Even the people of the OT drew on it prefigured in the sacrifices of the temple. We live in time and space, and are limited by it, but God isn’t. 🙂
 
t68ware said:
I have a question that I cannot answer. A friend asked me that during the Lord’s Supper, when Jesus said the words of consecration, did the bread He was holding become His flesh, even though He had not yet died and been glorified? That presents a problem if so, since Jesus was bound by an earthly body, and a body cannot exist in two places at once, meaning Jesus could not have been sitting at the table and be holding His flesh at the same time. Also, since Jesus still has a body in heaven, albeit a glorified one, it is still a body, and that prevents Him from being at all the Masses in bodily form. I cannot answer this…help!!!
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Well, first of all the premises is faulty. Faulty premises:
  1. a body cannot exist in two places at once, meaning Jesus could not have been sitting at the table and be holding His flesh at the same time.
WHY NOT? I SEE NO LOGICAL CONTRADICTION. Look up bilocation.

And. Does Jesus’ entire body need to be present in the Eucharist? NO.
 
Della said:
Yes. When he offered his death to God as satisfaction for our sins it was in eternity, not within time and space.

This is why we can apply Christ’s redemption to us today, as well as the Eucharist, which is a re-presenting of his one sacrifice.

Jesus wanted everyone in every time and place to be able to draw on the power of the Eucharist, which is the offering of his one sacrifice.

Even the people of the OT drew on it prefigured in the sacrifices of the temple. We live in time and space, and are limited by it, but God isn’t. 🙂
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Was Him holding His ow body a supernatural event, too?
 
Faith1960 said:
Was Him holding His ow body a supernatural event, too?
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No. He was not “holding his own body,” therefore it wasn’t a “supernatural event,” in the sense that he had bio-located himself. It was sacramental event, as we have explained quite well. Words have proper definitions and meanings. If you confuse them you confuse what they tell us.
 
Della said:
No. He was not “holding his own body,” therefore it wasn’t a “supernatural event,” in the sense that he had bio-located himself. It was sacramental event, as we have explained quite well. Words have proper definitions and meanings. If you confuse them you confuse what they tell us.
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I read something by a priest who said us receiving the Eucharist now is a supernatural event.

catholicvirginian.org/archive/2013/2013vol89iss3/pages/article7.html
 
Vico said:
The Blessed Sacrament is Jesus Christ, so can we call the Blessed Sacrament a human person or a human being because the physical reality of Christ is corporeally present in the Sacrament of the Eucharist? No, it must be the person of the Son of God, as the Catechism states that:468 After the Council of Chalcedon, some made of Christ’s human nature a kind of personal subject. Against them, the fifth ecumenical council, at Constantinople in 553, confessed that "there is but one hypostasis [or person], which is our Lord Jesus Christ, one of the Trinity."93 Thus everything in Christ’s human nature is to be attributed to his divine person as its proper subject, not only his miracles but also his sufferings and even his death: "He who was crucified in the flesh, our Lord Jesus Christ, is true God, Lord of glory, and one of the Holy Trinity."94

This includes the physical reality of Jesus Christ.

Here is the Vatican translation:
  1. To avoid any misunderstanding of this type of presence, which goes beyond the laws of nature and constitutes the greatest miracle of its kind, (50) we have to listen with docility to the voice of the teaching and praying Church. Her voice, which constantly echoes the voice of Christ, assures us that the way in which Christ becomes present in this Sacrament is through the conversion of the whole substance of the bread into His body and of the whole substance of the wine into His blood, a unique and truly wonderful conversion that the Catholic Church fittingly and properly calls transubstantiation. (51) As a result of transubstantiation, the species of bread and wine undoubtedly take on a new signification and a new finality, for they are no longer ordinary bread and wine but instead a sign of something sacred and a sign of spiritual food; but they take on this new signification, this new finality, precisely because they contain a new “reality” which we can rightly call ontological. For what now lies beneath the aforementioned species is not what was there before, but something completely different; and not just in the estimation of Church belief but in reality, since once the substance or nature of the bread and wine has been changed into the body and blood of Christ, nothing remains of the bread and the wine except for the species—beneath which Christ is present whole and entire in His physical “reality,” corporeally present, although not in the manner in which bodies are in a place.
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What does the Vatican mean by “although not in the manner in which bodies are in a place?”
 
Della said:
But that’s not what you asked. You asked if “Jesus holding Jesus” was a supernatural event, to which I replied.
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Yes. But now I’m asking if what we receive is supernatural?
 
Faith1960 said:
What does the Vatican mean by “although not in the manner in which bodies are in a place?”
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I believe it means that the Risen Lord is incapable of being limited or contained, but there is a substantial Real Presence.
 
t68ware said:
I have a question that I cannot answer. A friend asked me that during the Lord’s Supper, when Jesus said the words of consecration, did the bread He was holding become His flesh, even though He had not yet died and been glorified? That presents a problem if so, since Jesus was bound by an earthly body, and a body cannot exist in two places at once, meaning Jesus could not have been sitting at the table and be holding His flesh at the same time. Also, since Jesus still has a body in heaven, albeit a glorified one, it is still a body, and that prevents Him from being at all the Masses in bodily form. I cannot answer this…help!!!
Click to expand...
There are millions of molecules in Christ’s body, including his toes and his hair. Why can’t the molecules of the bread and wine become part of his body too?

And in quantum mechanics, it seems that a photon can be in two places at the same time as well.

We walk by faith and not by sight but ome people just don’t have faith.

Let’s ask this question, if Christ’s body has to occupy just a specific place, at the right hand of the Father, will we have to wait in line 10,000 years to see Jesus?
 
Della said:
No. He was not “holding his own body,” therefore it wasn’t a “supernatural event,” in the sense that he had bio-located himself. It was sacramental event, as we have explained quite well. Words have proper definitions and meanings. If you confuse them you confuse what they tell us.
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But I still don’t get what a sacramental event is…
 
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