Was Jesus the Messiah? CRISIS

[Carl]

Tell your friend to take a look at a book titled What the Rabbis Know about the Messiah by Rachmiel Frydland.

This is a book written by a Jew about the failure of the Jews to recognize Jesus as the Messiah. It makes a powerful case.

Good luck.

 

[Vitus]

This is one of the main questions I stuggled with in my faith. Still do in fact. Judaism puts forth a darn good arguement. There are more tempered websites that the one cited. The Outreach Judaism website (which is anti-evangelical websited mostly in respons to Jews for Jesus) has some very good questions and answers (outreachjudaism.org/questions.html), some of which I haven’t seen a good refutation of yet. WARNING: The weak of faith may not want to go to this website, it can be quite faith shaking.

Just as Catholics claim an understanding of the Bible since the NT came out of the church, so Jews claim they have a better understanding out of the OT (Torah) since it came out of their peoples.

But for the OP, I wouldn’t worry too much. It’s not like your friend is going to try to convert you, or at least he shouldn’t. Judaism does not believe in evangelizing. In fact, it’s quite difficult to convert as it’s a serious under taking. Unless you are a Jew, you would fall under the covenant of Noah (B’nei Noach). Most Rabbis agree that being a Christian does not violate the rules of that covenant.

 

[bengal_fan]

i have a few comments on this article, none of which i’m sure will have an effect on our friend who wrote it.

he continually asks the question “are these the actions of a messiah?” and i would have to answer yes. the messiah would be the only one who could say and do such things. any other human being and these actions could be hypocritical or reprehensible, but God on earth has complete authority to respond as Jesus did (and it should almost be expected).

secondly, he ends the article saying he is willing to talk about these things but not willing to debate them. this is poor scholarship. neitsche (sp?) even said that a belief that is not willing to be challenged is no belief at all (not exact quote, just the bengal_fan version). if he makes these claims, which history and the fruit of Christianity can show aren’t true and that Christians have a legitimate case that Jesus is the messiah, and is unwilling to have them challenged it is a little suspect.

finally, i do give him credit for having the guts to say that Jesus was an evil human being and got his just desserts. too many people try to paint Him as a good teacher or even a great prophet, but our author here sees that it is impossible to do that. c.s. lewis says we have only 3 options as to who Jesus was: liar, lunatic, or Lord. the author believes He is a combination of the first 2 and good for him for having the guts to say it. only there can real discussion begin. i feel the evidence points to the 3rd option myself and would be happy to debate this person face-to-face any day as i’m sure would many apologists, ministers, and other faithful Christians, but it is too difficult to debate some one who doesn’t even know what they think about Christ. those people can’t debate because they don’t have a side, those are the people who we convince rather than debate. anyway, good luck with your friend and i assure you that every objection raised in that article has a sound defense in the old testament.

 

[kpnuts2k]

that he was the messiah cos he fulfilled the profisy in isiah

 

[headman13]

One year when Passover fell outside the Triduum of Holy Week so I was free, I was able to help a Jewish friend of mine set up his Seder meal and participate in it. I made the Haroses as good as his Mother he said [applesauce, nut & wine mixture that recalls the mortar used in Egypt] and I roasted the shank bone of the lamb and burned the egg [symbols of the old Temple and sacrifices] . All that was kind of fun. I love the “Hillel Sandwich” of Haroses and Horseradish with the unleavened bread, the Matzoh. At the Seder itself, as we read through the Haggadah–the “liturgy” if you will–I was just bowled over. The Seder Haggadah is the most Christian thing I had ever read. If you believe that Jesus is the fulfilment of the Old TEstament prohecies, it is just as clear as a bell. The talk about the sacrificial death of the Lamb,His Blood and the passover of the Angel of Death and the liberation from slavery, the walking through the Red Sea: it all took my breath away. Those who can’t see that, cannot because they WILL not. As St. Paul says their eyes are blinded.

 

[bengal_fan]

headman,
how true. jews for jesus (please don’t rail against them and say how anti-catholic they are) has a video out called “Christ in the passover”. they also do presentations of this around passover every year and it is amazing to see the prophecies that are fulfilled in Jesus. paul was a pharisee and apparently saw the same contradictions that the author of this article sees, but his experiences forced him to look at the old testament in a new way (perhaps not so new, maybe he was forced to view it the way moses viewed it which is why moses would have recognized Jesus while the pharisees did not).

 

[Ghosty]

If you really want to convince your friend then use the Talmud instead of the New Testament. There’s an excellent book that was recently published called “Salvation is from the Jews”, and it gives a TON of arguments for why Jesus was the Messiah. I don’t have room to exhaust all of the points made in the book using Jewish writings, but one that got me was the use of the “red thread”. It was a custom for a red thread to be tied to the door of the Temple, and if the yearly sacrifice by the High Priest was accepted, the thread turned white. This is recorded in both the Zohar and the Babylonian Talmud (preferably the complete, uncensored Soncino edition). In the Talmud, however, it’s noted that for 30 years prior to the destruction of the Temple (so starting in approximately 30 AD, sound familiar?) the thread ceased turning white after the sacrifice! This doesn’t come from any Christian source, but rather Jewish oral tradition, and an expressly anti-Christian source on top of that. The Talmud also attests that the “heretics” who followed Jesus had the power to heal the sick and dying.

Again, I don’t have room to recount everything from the Talmud and “Salvation is From the Jews”, but it’s worth looking up for yourself. Personally I came to the Church by way of studying ultra-Orthodox Judaism, so I can personally attest to how strongly Jesus fits the prophesies of the Messiah.

 

[martino]

flatliner:

Thanks for the response. I will still be friends with him, and as you might have gathered from my post “are catholics the only true jews: poll,” i do understand my jewish roots. At least i thought i did. This article seems to say that given what is said in the torah, jesus could not have been the messiah given what He did in the NT. I understand Jesus to be the fullfillment of the law – he fulfills the hand washing, for instance, by making all things clean, not by always washing his hands. But this article seems to imply that the messiah would have or will lived or live exactly according to mosaic law – and that doing so would be the fulfillment. I wonder how he would stand out from an ordinary jew if this were the case, but, i dunno, maybe i’m getting confused. I need to be able to get over this hurdle with some reason and logic – i know it’s there, i just need to figure where the article is going wrong. Please help. I am having difficulty. I am praying for him all the while, but I think it would help a lot if i had something to say about this. Peace.

I appologize for not reading the article before posting but you said something here that caught my eye. *"…this article seems to imply that the messiah would have or will lived or live exactly according to mosaic law – and that doing so would be the fulfillment." *Wasnt it prophesied that Jesus’ own people would reject Him and ultimately put Him to death? Both things cant be true; He was either rejected and killed by the Jews or he lived exactly according to the law and they loved Him. One of those two scenarios actually happened and the other scenario doesnt even make sense. Why would the Jews reject and kill a prophet that lived exactly the way (their view anyway) a perfect Jew would live?

 

[ms_cilantro]

As a Jew who can remember what it was like meeting Jesus I can tell you that to become one of his takes an action on the part of God. God has to reveal his truth to the Jewish heart. I personally believe that had Jews by in large not had blinders on then gentiles wouldn’t have been saved. The lack of seeing is grace for gentiles. I can also tell you that when I met Jesus I felt on some level I had always known him.

The orthodox spend tremendous time and devotion to studying the word of God. Those who have the gift of faith spend our time in devotion to and in relationship with the Word of God. My brother is orthodox and he and I have similar “understandings” he gains his through studying and I gain mine through some studying but more through prayer and the sacraments.

Ms. Cilantro:thumbsup:

 

[Peg]

There is a new book called “Salvation is from The Jews” by Roy Schoeman. He is a Jew who converted to Catholicism. The site below will show you an interview where he tells his conversion story. It is on June 18, 2004. It is very interesting. He had a personal invitation from Christ!!! Conversion stories are a very unthreatening way to share the faith.
catholic.com/radio/calive.asp?date=6/1/2004

 

[Returnee]

I of course know that Jesus was the messiah. But a Jewish friend (well, he was a freind) gave this article to me. I’m not sure I no where to begin a defence. What do people make of it?
koshertorah.com/Yeshu%20HaNotzri.pdf

It seems like there is some slight of hand or deception or confusion, but I can’t quiet put my finger on it. PLEASE HELP!

Thanks for posting this, it’s something I’ve been looking for as of late. Just out of curiousity, mind you, because of course Jesus is the Messiah.

As the author of the .pdf notes, the Messiah is to be one free of sin. But what the author doesn’t grasp is that, Jesus, being God, can and does define and interpret the Old Law perfectly, putting all laws in subjection to the two greatest: Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus, being God, could do this. Jesus, being God, could show how the sages’ interpretation of the Old Law was flawed, insomuch as the sages put too much empasis on the details without adhering to the spirit of the Old Law. He (Jesus) does all this even while commanding that Jews subject to the Seat of Moses without being contradictory. It’s not a contradiction because Jesus is clearly stating that there’s still a need for an authoritative, teaching body here on earth (by refering to the Seat of Moses); this prefigures and “sets up” the need for the Magisterium today. And He did do this, despite the author’s claim to the contrary.

In other words, the author lacks the faith necessary to see this. Faith comes before understanding, as in all of Christianity. Without faith in the diety of Jesus, the arguments of the author are quite effectual. With Faith, true Faith, the arguments fail, since we can see that Jesus being God can and did show how the strict adherence to mere sages’ interpretations of the Old Law is not nor was ever what God intended. God always intended for the sages (today the Magisterium) to be guided by His Holy Spirit however as is clear from the OT they never were. This doesn’t mean they never had the authority of the Seat, simply that they didn’t have the guidance necessary to perform their duties accurately.

The Seat of Moses is, again, a prefigurement, but not an exact copy of, of the Holy See. Thus the Seat of Moses is discarded when the Holy Spirit is given to the Apostles at Pentecost, discarded in favor of a “more perfect” (to use an oxymoronic euphamism) version.

This answer is clear from the Catechism post upthread. It’s a matter of faith that truly separates us from the Jew, no amount of Scriptural exegesis alone (sola scriptura) can ever convince the Jew. One must have a ready heart to accept Him. (cf Acts 17).

(note: the link now is koshertorah.com/PDF/Yeshu-HaNotzri.pdf )

 

[Dranu]

I appologize for not reading the article before posting but you said something here that caught my eye. *"…this article seems to imply that the messiah would have or will lived or live exactly according to mosaic law – and that doing so would be the fulfillment." *Wasnt it prophesied that Jesus’ own people would reject Him and ultimately put Him to death? Both things cant be true; He was either rejected and killed by the Jews or he lived exactly according to the law and they loved Him. One of those two scenarios actually happened and the other scenario doesnt even make sense. Why would the Jews reject and kill a prophet that lived exactly the way (their view anyway) a perfect Jew would live?

It can happen by them not having a perfect understanding of the law, and thus hate Him according to their own misunderstanding, without him breaking the law.

As it is said,
The Old Testament is the New hidden, and the New Testament is the Old revealed.