Was John Chrysostom Catholic?

[Erick_Ybarra]

When protestant specify alone, they do not mean that there is nothing else attached to faith such as love, but what is meant is that faith is the only virtue out of them all that God finds reason to justify because faith itself is not a work but an assurance and confidence in Gods promise. God will never save anyone whose faith does not also have works, but because he wishes to preserve the principle of grace he chooses faith out of all to be the means of being forgiven and justifiedn

 

[onemangang]

When protestant specify alone, they do not mean that there is nothing else attached to faith such as love, but what is meant is that faith is the only virtue out of them all that God finds reason to justify because faith itself is not a work but an assurance and confidence in Gods promise. God will never save anyone whose faith does not also have works, but because he wishes to preserve the principle of grace he chooses faith out of all to be the means of being forgiven and justifiedn

Canon on justification

Canon 9 If anyone shall say that by faith alone the sinner is justified, so as to understand that nothing else is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification , and that it is no way necessart that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will: let him be anathema

Canon 10 if anyone shall say that men are justified without the justice of Christ by which he merited for us , or that by that justice itself they are formally just: let him be anathema

Canon 12** if anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ sake**, or that it is this confidence alone by which we are justified: let him be anathema

Canon 24 if anyone shall say, that justice received is not preserved** and also not increased in the sight of God through good works but that those same works are only the fruits and signs of justification received, but not a cause of its increase**: let him be anathema

saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html

 

[carlos19]

Hey folks,

I’ve been reading through the homilies on Romans in John Chrysostom, and I cannot help but notice the protestant interpretations that come line after line after line.

My first question, if someone had to prove that John Chrysosotom was Catholic, how would you go about it ? I am not aware if there is a book about this. And I am not speaking of the Eucharist. But more particularly, do we have evidence that he believed some of the other doctrines that evangelicals highly question such as infant baptism, the process of justification, the priesthood, etc,etc

I just noticed your first question which included infant baptism… here is one of his writings that addresses that…

They are citizens of the Church who were wandering in error. They have their lot in RIGHTEOUSNESS who were in the confusion of sin. For not only are they free, but HOLY also; not only holy, but RIGHTEOUS too; not only righteous, but SONS also; not only sons, but HEIRS as well; not only heirs, but BROTHERS even of Christ; not only brothers of Christ, but also co-heirs; not only co-heirs, but His very members; not only His members, but a temple too; not a temple only, but likewise the instruments of the SPIRIT. You see how many are the benefits of BAPTISM, and some think its heavenly GRACE consists ONLY in the remission of sins; but we have enumerated TEN honors.** For this reason we baptize even INFANTS,** though they are not defiled by sin [or do not have sins]: so that there may be given to them HOLINESS, RIGHTEOUSNESS, ADOPTION, INHERITANCE, BROTHERHOOD with Christ, and that they may be His MEMBERS. (from Baptismal Catecheses 2:4)

 

[steve_b]

When protestant specify alone, they do not mean that there is nothing else attached to faith such as love, but what is meant is that faith is the only virtue out of them all that God finds reason to justify because faith itself is not a work but an assurance and confidence in Gods promise. God will never save anyone whose faith does not also have works, but because he wishes to preserve the principle of grace he chooses faith out of all to be the means of being forgiven and justifiedn

Continued

Charity
1822 Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God.
1823 Jesus makes charity the new commandment.96 By loving his own "to the end,"97 he makes manifest the Father’s love which he receives. By loving one another, the disciples imitate the love of Jesus which they themselves receive. Whence Jesus says: “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love.” And again: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."98
1824 Fruit of the Spirit and fullness of the Law, charity keeps the *commandments *of God and his Christ: "Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love."99
1825 Christ died out of love for us, while we were still "enemies."100 The Lord asks us to love as he does, even our enemies, to make ourselves the neighbor of those farthest away, and to love children and the poor as Christ himself.101
The Apostle Paul has given an incomparable depiction of charity: "charity is patient and kind, charity is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Charity does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Charity bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."102
1826 “If I . . . have not charity,” says the Apostle, “I am nothing.” Whatever my privilege, service, or even virtue, "if I . . . have not charity, I gain nothing."103 Charity is superior to all the virtues. It is the first of the theological virtues: "So faith, hope, charity abide, these three. But the greatest of these is charity."104
1827 The practice of all the virtues is animated and inspired by charity, which “binds everything together in perfect harmony”;105 it is the form of the virtues; it articulates and orders them among themselves; it is the source and the goal of their Christian practice. Charity upholds and purifies our human ability to love, and raises it to the supernatural perfection of divine love.
1828 The practice of the moral life animated by charity gives to the Christian the spiritual freedom of the children of God. He no longer stands before God as a slave, in servile fear, or as a mercenary looking for wages, but as a son responding to the love of him who “first loved us”:106
If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.107 1829 The *fruits *of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: Love is itself the fulfillment of all our works. There is the goal; that is why we run: we run toward it, and once we reach it, in it we shall find rest.108

 

[steve_b]

When protestant specify alone, they do not mean that there is nothing else attached to faith such as love, but what is meant is that faith is the only virtue out of them all that God finds reason to justify because faith itself is not a work but an assurance and confidence in Gods promise.

faith without love (charity) is like faith without good works.
EY:

God will never save anyone whose faith does not also have works, but because he wishes to preserve the principle of grace he chooses faith out of all to be the means of being forgiven and justifiedn

From the CCC (emphasis mine)

II. THE THEOLOGICAL VIRTUES
1812 The human virtues are rooted in the theological virtues, which adapt man’s faculties for participation in the divine nature:76 for the theological virtues relate directly to God. They dispose Christians to live in a relationship with the Holy Trinity. They have the One and Triune God for their origin, motive, and object.

1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77

* Faith
1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God."78 For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith "work through charity."79

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But “faith apart from works is dead”:81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

1816 The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it: "All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks."82 Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."83

Hope
1817 Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful."84 "The Holy Spirit . . . he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life."85

1818 The virtue of hope responds to the aspiration to happiness which God has placed in the heart of every man; it takes up the hopes that inspire men’s activities and purifies them so as to order them to the Kingdom of heaven; it keeps man from discouragement; it sustains him during times of abandonment; it opens up his heart in expectation of eternal beatitude. Buoyed up by hope, he is preserved from selfishness and led to the happiness that flows from charity.

**1819**Christian hope takes up and fulfills the hope of the chosen people which has its origin and model in the hope of Abraham, who was blessed abundantly by the promises of God fulfilled in Isaac, and who was purified by the test of the sacrifice.86 "Hoping against hope, he believed, and thus became the father of many nations."87

to be cont

 

[steve_b]

When protestant specify alone, they do not mean that there is nothing else attached to faith such as love, but what is meant is that faith is the only virtue out of them all that God finds reason to justify because faith itself is not a work but an assurance and confidence in Gods promise.

[snip]

Continued (all emphasis is mine)

Hope (cont)

1820 Christian hope unfolds from the beginning of Jesus’ preaching in the proclamation of the beatitudes. The beatitudes raise our hope toward heaven as the new Promised Land; they trace the path that leads through the trials that await the disciples of Jesus. But through the merits of Jesus Christ and of his Passion, God keeps us in the "hope that does not disappoint."88 Hope is the "sure and steadfast anchor of the soul . . . that enters . . . where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf."89 Hope is also a weapon that protects us in the struggle of salvation: "Let us . . . put on the breastplate of faith and charity, and for a helmet the hope of salvation."90 It affords us joy even under trial: "Rejoice in your hope, be patient in tribulation."91 Hope is expressed and nourished in prayer, especially in the Our Father, the summary of everything that hope leads us to desire.

1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will.92 In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end"93 and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for "all men to be saved."94 She longs to be united with Christ, her Bridegroom, in the glory of heaven:
Hope, O my soul, hope. You know neither the day nor the hour. Watch carefully, for everything passes quickly, even though your impatience makes doubtful what is certain, and turns a very short time into a long one. Dream that the more you struggle, the more you prove the love that you bear your God, and the more you will rejoice one day with your Beloved, in a happiness and rapture that can never end.95

Charity
1822 Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God.
1823 Jesus makes charity the new commandment.96 By loving his own "to the end,"97 he makes manifest the Father’s love which he receives. By loving one another, the disciples imitate the love of Jesus which they themselves receive. Whence Jesus says: “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love.” And again: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."98
1824 Fruit of the Spirit and fullness of the Law, charity keeps the *commandments *of God and his Christ: "Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love."99
1825 Christ died out of love for us, while we were still "enemies."100 The Lord asks us to love as he does, even our enemies, to make ourselves the neighbor of those farthest away, and to love children and the poor as Christ himself.101
The Apostle Paul has given an incomparable depiction of charity: "charity is patient and kind, charity is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Charity does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Charity bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."102
1826 “If I . . . have not charity,” says the Apostle, “I am nothing.” Whatever my privilege, service, or even virtue, "if I . . . have not charity, I gain nothing."103 Charity is superior to all the virtues. It is the first of the theological virtues: "So faith, hope, charity abide, these three. But the greatest of these is charity."104
1827 The practice of all the virtues is animated and inspired by charity, which “binds everything together in perfect harmony”;105 it is the form of the virtues; it articulates and orders them among themselves; it is the source and the goal of their Christian practice. Charity upholds and purifies our human ability to love, and raises it to the supernatural perfection of divine love.

 

[JonNC]

let’s not confused the matter. The roman catholic view and the protestant view of justification is radically opposed to each other. One is of faith and the other is of works.

Not according to this:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Therefore faith AGAIN, is not alone. The problem is, Protestants insert alone where alone doesn’t belong.

Depends on one’s understanding of what the “alone” means, what it refers to.

The “alone” is in oppostion to pelagian and semi-pelagian views. It states the fact that the only way we can come to justification is by grace alone through faith in Christ. It is the gift by which we can access justification. It is not a statement claiming we can exclude works from the Godly life.

Jon

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

*For Him who knew no sin He made to be sin on our account.

‘I say nothing of what has gone before, that you have outraged Him, Him that had done you no wrong, Him that had done you good, that He exacted not justice, that He is first to beseech, though first outraged; let none of these things be set down at present. Ought ye not in justice to be reconciled for this one thing only that He has done to you now?’ And what has He done? Him that knew no sin He made to be sin, for you. For had He achieved nothing but done only this, think how great a thing it were to give His Son for those that had outraged Him. But now He has both well achieved mighty things, and besides, has suffered Him that did no wrong to be punished for those who had done wrong. But he did not say this: but mentioned that which is far greater than this. What then is this? Him that knew no sin, he says, Him that was righteousness itself , He made sin, that is suffered as a sinner to be condemned, as one cursed to die. For cursed is he that hangs on a tree. Galatians 3:13 For to die thus was far greater than to die; and this he also elsewhere implying, says, Becoming obedient unto death, yea the death of the cross. Philippians 2:8 For this thing carried with it not only punishment, but also disgrace. Reflect therefore how great things He bestowed on you. For a great thing indeed it were for even a sinner to die for any one whatever; but when He who undergoes this both is righteous and dies for sinners; and not dies only, but even as one cursed; and not as cursed [dies] only, but thereby freely bestows upon us those great goods which we never looked for; (for he says, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him what words, what thought shall be adequate to realize these things? ‘For the righteous,’ says he, ‘He made a sinner; that He might make the sinners righteous.’ Yea rather, he said not even so, but what was greater far; for the word he employed is not the habit, but the quality itself. For he said not made [Him] a sinner, but sin; not, ‘Him that had not sinned’ only, but that had not even known sin; that we also might become, he did not say ‘righteous,’ but, righteousness, and, the righteousness of God. For this is [the righteousness] of God when we are justified not by works, (in which case it were necessary that not a spot even should be found,) but by grace, in which case all sin is done away. And this at the same time that it suffers us not to be lifted up, (seeing the whole is the free gift of God,) teaches us also the greatness of that which is given. For that which was before was a righteousness of the Law and of works, but this is the righteousness of God.*

This “righteousness” which people have labored to understand throughout history, Chrysostom believed that the “righteousness of God” is not a behavioral or habitual righteousness, but that we might be gifted with the quality of being righteous, apart from works. I am not quite sure how else to understand this other than that we are granted a new status before God which shows us to be righteous in God’s eyes, ONLY because of what Christ has done for us.

Catholics have a problem with this, for they believe that we internally become righteous and this is the ground by which God declares us righteous. Vastly different is Chrysostom who believes in this great exchange, the righteous is made sin so that the unrighteous might be made righteous. Christ was not made habitually sinful or behaviorally sinful NOT EVEN internally sinful, rather he was bearing OUR sin, do you see? This never made it inside of his soul, but remained something outside; yet it nevertheless brings him to the death for us.

In the same way, we are not behaviorally made righteous, nor are we habitually made righteous, NOT EVEN internally made righteous, but that we are imputed the quality of being righteous because of what Christ has done.

And Paul already foresaw all the objections that people would have to this, “Shall we continue in sin that grace might abound?” or “So we can live in sin???”, to which the answer is “Absolutely not!”, because Justification is simply not the only grace that is bestowed in our baptism. Our baptism is a re-creation of the person, internally. But justification is an issue dealing with out objective standing before God.

Can someone be a God hater and be imputed with righteousness? Absolutely not! For repentance and conversion and the internal renewal of the Holy Spirit are operating on the sinner at the same time that justification is given.

 

[onemangang]

This “righteousness” which people have labored to understand throughout history, Chrysostom believed that the “righteousness of God” is not a behavioral or habitual righteousness, but that we might be gifted with the quality of being righteous, apart from works. I am not quite sure how else to understand this other than that we are granted a new status before God which shows us to be righteous in God’s eyes, ONLY because of what Christ has done for us. *

Sure we are now predisposed to participate in His divine nature as adoptive sons and daughters.All by grace, which is NOT irrisistable.

Justification and Sanctification are one
The Council of Trent helped to clarify and reinforce the Church’s doctrine of justification, by focusing on sanctification as part of justification. The Council’s decrees laid to rest the heretical doctrines of the Protestant Reformers by insisting that justification of the believer is not a forensic declaration of a person’s righteousness, but an actual interior purification of the soul. Justification truly makes the soul just through grace. Thus the sanctification of the soul is a necessary part of justification. Sin is not covered or concealed, but is literally cleansed away by purification of sanctifying grace. Justification consists of one act of God that includes forgiveness of sin and sanctification of the soul. Thus a justified person is truly made pleasing to God.

Catholics have a problem with this, for they believe that we internally become righteous and this is the ground by which God declares us righteous. Vastly different is Chrysostom who believes in this great exchange, the righteous is made sin so that the unrighteous might be made righteous. Christ was not made habitually sinful or behaviorally sinful NOT EVEN internally sinful, rather he was bearing OUR sin, do you see? This never made it inside of his soul, but remained something outside; yet it nevertheless brings him to the death for us.

 

[Richca]

Hey folks,

I’ve been reading through the homilies on Romans in John Chrysostom, and I cannot help but notice the protestant interpretations that come line after line after line.

“Is it not perfectly clear that anyone can, by his own free choice, choose either wickedness or virtue? For if this were not the case, and if such a faculty did not pertain to our nature, it were not right that some be punished while others receive the reward of virtue. But since everything depends, after grace from above, upon our own choice, so too are punishements prepared for sinners and recompense and reward for those who do right.” ( St John Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis)

In the above quote above from St John Chrysostom, it is quite clear that he holds to catholic doctrine as opposed to protestant or Lutheran doctrine.
Firstly, he says that it is within the power of man by his own free choice to choose between good and evil and even that good that leads to salvation. The Lutheran doctrine is that due to original sin, man’s free will is so corrupted that it is completely powerless to choose any good whatsoever or to contribute anything that would lead to salvation. Chrysostom believes that man, by his own free will, contributes or cooperates with grace in the work of his salvation.
Secondly, from the above it is clear that Chrysostom is at odds with the Lutheran doctrine concerning original sin and its effects.
Thirdly, it is clear that Chrysostom is at odds with the protestant doctrine of “Sola gratia,” i.e., by grace alone.
Fourthly, Chysostom holds to the catholic doctrine of rewards and punishments or merit which protestants deny.

 

[Richca]

Hey folks,

I’ve been reading through the homilies on Romans in John Chrysostom, and I cannot help but notice the protestant interpretations that come line after line after line.

“Therefore, brethern, stand fast and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or by our letter” ( 2 Thess. 2:15). From this it is clear that they did not hand down everything by letter, but there was much also that was not written. Like that which was written, the unwritten too is worthy of belief. So let us regard the tradition of the Church also as worthy of belief. Is it a tradition? Seek no further. ( Homily on the Second Epistle to the Thessalonians).

This teaching of St John Chrysostom on the tradition of the Church is directly opposed to the protestant " Sola scriptura," i.e., by scripture alone.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Who is endorsing sola scriptura?

 

[onemangang]

Who is endorsing sola scriptura?

As far as I see it, NOT you!

Do you believe that the graced works done by us in Christ are efficatious towards our justification? I do not mean our initial justification, but final justification!

Do you hold that belief, and repentance, are part of our initial justification?

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

**Erick, I am bowing out of this discussion. ** It is quite useless to talk to you about this anymore, because you keep on misreading and injecting your own views not only on St. John Chrysostom’s writings but other people’s posts as well. I was quite surprised when you posted in response to my posts,

You are misinterpreting him. He does not say that faith is the way we fulfill good works in order to be justified.

when I have never posted anything like that, and when I invited you to read again what I posted you ignored it. You also keep on posting strange teachings then brand them as “Catholic” while you post quite Catholic teachings then brand them “Protestant”

I’ve had enough.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I did not understand what you were saying, and I didn’t have the time to respond at the moment to that. Apologize for disappointing you.

However, you still have to deal with Chrysostom’s teaching that Abraham, specifically in Genesis 15:6, was justified by faith alone even though he was adorned with many good works at that moment. Catholics such as Robert Sungenis, Steve Ray, and Scott Hahn are quick to point out that Abraham first believed and obeyed in Genesis 12 and was continually justified from that point forward, where Genesis 15:6 is simply just a revelation of one of the times he was justified.

Grant it that justification expands to the whole life of the person, but I, like Chrysostom, believe that it is faith alone that justifies but it is a faith that is always accompanied by works of obedience such that they cannot exist independently if the person is saved.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

I did not understand what you were saying, and I didn’t have the time to respond at the moment to that. Apologize for disappointing you.

However, you still have to deal with Chrysostom’s teaching that Abraham, specifically in Genesis 15:6, was justified by faith alone even though he was adorned with many good works at that moment. Catholics such as Robert Sungenis, Steve Ray, and Scott Hahn are quick to point out that Abraham first believed and obeyed in Genesis 12 and was continually justified from that point forward, where Genesis 15:6 is simply just a revelation of one of the times he was justified.

Grant it that justification expands to the whole life of the person, but I, like Chrysostom, believe that it is faith alone that justifies but it is a faith that is always accompanied by works of obedience such that they cannot exist independently if the person is saved.

Nothing that anyone has done before initial justification will affect it. It is a pure gift of God. That is a very Catholic teaching, and again, you have branded a quite Catholic teaching “Protestant”

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

But Abraham had already been justified for years and years. Remember Chrysostom is teaching about Abraham’s justification in Genesis 15:6, not his initial justification, and yet this later justification is still by faith only, with no other words contributing.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

But Abraham had already been justified for years and years. Remember Chrysostom is teaching about Abraham’s justification in Genesis 15:6, not his initial justification, and yet this later justification is still by faith only, with no other words contributing.

Why?! Can anything I do after Baptism make me lose my Catholicism? Can I renounce it ever?

Can a son or daughter lose her being a son or daughter?

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

We are speaking to the voice of Catholicism which says that we are justified by faith and works. That both faith and works contribute. What we are saying is the faith alone brings the free gift of God of being righteous, but the works are there not as contributory but as the obedience of faith.