Was Judas sent to Hell or was he forgiven?

[OneSheep]

Its not so much a question about Judas but about who God is…I tend to believe His mercy is so great it leans towards outweighing his justice.

Another way of looking at it is the way that Pope Francis addresses justice:

Library : God's Justice Is Mercy | Catholic Culture

I truly believe that His justice is mercy. After all, what is the purpose of justice? The purpose of justice is not justice itself; justice serves mankind, it helps us to thrive and get along, it helps us to control bad behaviors. All of these are merciful to our humanity, so justice itself needs to begin with mercy. In the case of addressing sinners, justice must begin with forgiveness of the sinner, or the purpose of justice is lost.

This is so contrary to the way that we naturally think. Our conscience says “he deserves this, he deserves that”, and a certain blindness to the dignity of the perpetrator accompanies our own natural reaction to sin, a blindness that helps us inflict punishment! So in a tribal setting, this is all good, the blindness is very functional.

Jesus invites us to move beyond our very nature, to forgive those who trespass, especially before we even consider carrying out justice.

 

[Crusader13]

Good morning to you as well.

Well it still sounds like you’re focusing on the bias aspect of it. Regardless of which bias one may be influenced by, it is still a “bias” nonetheless that causes one to assume that Judas is in hell. However, I’m not affected by any bias regarding Judas. If there was a church teaching or a scripture passage that implied Judas was redeemed, I would be okay with it and this wouldn’t be an issue for me. However, the evidence, both from scripture and tradition does not give rise to the possibility that Judas is in heaven or even purgatory.

In response to the article you posted, I would say that it still doesn’t adequately answer the verse. She says it “may” mean this, meaning it could just as easily not mean what she is saying it does.

The hyperbole argument doesn’t make sense within the context that she is explaining. However, when you look closer at the meaning of the words, then you can easily see that if there is hyperbole being used, then it’s to show that Judas is in fact in hell.

When Jesus uses his hyperbolic statements, like the ones quoted in the article, it’s to show that hell is in fact real and any individual should do all they can to avoid going there, up to and including changing your lifestyle in such a way that you completely avoid whatever is leading you to sin.

In the case of Judas, Jesus is alluding to the fact that it would have been better for Judas never to have been born, because NOW he is to suffer eternally in hell for his betrayal.

Judas is not in purgatory because there is nothing in tradition to suggest that Judas is in purgatory. When you look back at the early church, including it’s missals and prayer books, I don’t believe you’ll find any instances where the Church is recognizing Judas as being in purgatory. You don’t find prayers being offered for Judas nor any feast days associated with the possibility that he may one day be redeemed. You may find some more ‘modern’ prayer books and such, but nothing from antiquity to suggest that Judas is anywhere but hell.

 

[Crusader13]

I would also suggest that the idea of “his own place” to suggest purgatory wouldn’t make sense if Jesus is telling him it would be better for Judas to never have been born, because in essence he is telling any individual that is it is better for them to never have been born if it means they have to suffer purgatory even though their end destination is going to be heaven.

 

[OneSheep]

However, the evidence, both from scripture and tradition don’t give rise to the possibility that Judas is in heaven or even purgatory.

So, you are disagreeing with JPII. Is that a bias? oops. sorry.

In response to the article you posted, I would say that it still doesn’t adequately answer the verse. She says it “may” mean this, meaning it could just as easily not mean what she is saying it does.

And you are leaning away from what she suggests, right?

However, when you look closer at the meaning of the words, then you can easily see that if there is hyperbole being used, then it’s to show that Judas is in fact in hell.

Well, I do believe that you can “easily see that”, but I do not. A hyperbole is an exaggeration, and it is by definition not to be taken literally. If something is not taken literally, then the exaggeration can be read in many different ways, but again, you appear to be leaning toward a specific conclusion. Perhaps you could explain how this particular exaggeration leads to the “fact” you state?

Brother, where do you want Judas to be? What is your prayer?

Do you have any other verses to address?

 

[Crusader13]

So, you are disagreeing with JPII. Is that a bias? oops. sorry.

Or you can say that I’m agreeing with St. Thomas Aquinas or even St. Augustine. And even though he’s not a saint, yet I believe Pope Benedict also subscribes to the teaching that Judas is in hell, though I can’t recall which book he mentions it. It may be Jesus of Nazareth.

Brother, where do you want Judas to be? What is your prayer?

Do you have any other verses to address?

It’s not a question of what I want, but what Jesus said and what scripture is saying regarding Judas. Your above arguments are sounding more like a philosophical question regarding mercy and redemption vs punishment and condemnation.

Yes, Jesus’s mercy applies to ALL. However, salvation is not in the universal sense where we can say “we have a reasonable hope that all men are saved”. Scripture clearly teaches that some will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Adulterers for example, can an adulterer be saved, absolutely! Provided they “cut off” whatever is leading them to commit their sin. Yet we are clearly told that MANY will go down the road of destruction and FEW will enter by the narrow gate into Heaven.

The other verses I quoted above have not been explained in a way that suggests Judas is not in hell.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled.

“Son of perdition” and “lost” are not hyperbole and not words or names Jesus gives to someone who is still going to enter the heavenly kingdom. So how would one square these verses with the possibility that Judas is in heaven or even purgatory?

Reading these verses in context along with the other verses I have been quoting paint a clearer picture of Judas’s fate.

 

[OneSheep]

Or you can say that I’m agreeing with St. Thomas Aquinas or even St. Augustine

Really? Do you have a reference to that?

I believe Pope Benedict also subscribes to the teaching that Judas is in hell

Never heard that. Reference? I find it extremely hard to believe that Pope Benedict would make a statement that defies those of his immediate predecessor. I have a copy of that book, and I read most of it, but definitely did not see that.

“Son of perdition” and “lost” are not hyperbole and not words or names Jesus gives to someone who is still going to enter the heavenly kingdom.

And you know that these are not hyperbole because_________________? Jesus truly “lost” a disciple, correct? There was a man who turned away, Judas. Are you _preferring _ that the word “lost” means that he met an eternal demise? If so, from where comes this special insight?

Reading these verses in context along with the other verses I have been quoting paint a clearer picture of Judas’s fate.

Well, we have addressed two so far, and neither one established the “fact” you are endorsing. Got any other verses?

 

[OneSheep]

It’s not a question of what I want

In terms of faith, it is indeed a question of what one wants!

Do we desire what God desires, that all be saved? Hopefully, this is the mission and compassion of the faithful, right? Would God want us praying that certain people be put to hell? Would He have us praying that certain people ultimately choose against being with our Father?

What is your prayer, friend? You seem to be doing all you can to make it out that Judas is in hell, to the point that it truly makes me wonder if you want him to be there.

So be up-front about it, do you pray that he ends up in heaven, or not?

 

[vash88]

It’s not a matter of what Crusader wants. Crusader is just being reasonable given all the evidence. Yes, a Christian should want all to be saved, but it would be intellectually dishonest (NOT something a Christian should want to be) to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to try and fit a wishful bias into reality when all actual evidence points to the contrary.

I don’t know where Judas is for a 100% certainty, and that’s why we shouldn’t presume either way. But if we’re going to have a discussion about it, we have to be honest.

 

[OneSheep]

Yes, a Christian should want all to be saved

We are definitely on the same page there! Do you pray that Judas ended up in heaven, that he eventually chose the Light?

but it would be intellectually dishonest (NOT something a Christian should want to be) to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to try and fit a wishful bias into reality when all actual evidence points to the contrary.

It takes “mental gymnastics” to make a definitive statement one way or the other. Pope Saint John Paul II was pretty clear that we can’t really say one way or another, and I don’t think that he was involved in any “mental gymnastics” in the statement. There is no one alive that can claim they know where Judas is, there is absolutely no proof.

So the question itself essentially has no value in terms of coming to a conclusion about if he went to hell. What is of value is a discussion about God’s image, His mercy, His forgiveness, His understanding of us. Does God “send” anyone to hell? Or instead, is hell only stubbornly chosen by those who will have nothing to do with Him, and He allows it? These are questions that can truly lead to some spiritual reflection and growth.

I don’t know where Judas is for a 100% certainty, and that’s why we shouldn’t presume either way. But if we’re going to have a discussion about it, we have to be honest.

Yeah, its all honest. The posters here have all been honest, but we don’t have the space and time to say everything that going on in our minds.

 

[Crusader13]

Never heard that. Reference? I find it extremely hard to believe that Pope Benedict would make a statement that defies those of his immediate predecessor. I have a copy of that book, and I read most of it, but definitely did not see that.

I may have used the wrong benedict. I can’t recall where I saw the quote or reference, so I will recant my statement in reference to Pope Benedict.

This quote is from Pope St. Leo the Great

The godless betrayer, shutting his mind to all these things [expressions of the Lord’s mercy], turned upon himself, not with a mind to repent, but in the madness of self-destruction: so that this man who had sold the Author of life to the executioners of His death, even in the act of dying sinned unto the increase of his own eternal punishment. (Sermon 62, De passione Domini XI [PL 54], in The Sunday Sermons of the Great Fathers, vol. 2, p. 183)

St. Augustine

Do we justly execrate the deed of Judas, and does truth itself pronounce that by hanging himself he rather aggravated than expiated the guilt of that most iniquitous betrayal, since, by despairing of God’s mercy in his sorrow that wrought death, he left to himself no place for a healing penitence? … For Judas, when he killed himself, killed a wicked man, and passed from this life chargeable not only with the death of Christ, but also with his own: for though he killed himself on account of his crime, his killing himself was another crime. ( The City of God, Bk. I, ch. 17)

St. Thomas Aquinas

To save Judas would … be contrary to [God’s] foreknowledge and disposition, by which He prepared for him eternal punishment ; hence it is not the order of justice [as such] that renders impossible Judas’s salvation, but the order of eternal foreknowledge and disposition” ( In IV Sent., dist. 46, qu. 1, art. 2, qa. 2, ad 3)

 

[Crusader13]

It takes “mental gymnastics” to make a definitive statement one way or the other. Pope Saint John Paul II was pretty clear that we can’t really say one way or another, and I don’t think that he was involved in any “mental gymnastics” in the statement. There is no one alive that can claim they know where Judas is, there is absolutely no proof.

So the question itself essentially has no value in terms of coming to a conclusion about if he went to hell. What is of value is a discussion about God’s image, His mercy, His forgiveness, His understanding of us. Does God “send” anyone to hell? Or instead, is hell only stubbornly chosen by those who will have nothing to do with Him, and He allows it? These are questions that can truly lead to some spiritual reflection and growth.

I don’t believe that it takes any “mental gymnastics” to be able to say that Judas is in hell. I can read the words of the Church fathers and see pretty clearly what they are saying regarding Judas and his fate. Saints are allowed to disagree with one another and we are allowed to disagree with the Saints. Just because JPII didn’t believe he could say for certain that Judas was in hell, doesn’t mean that Judas isn’t there. The scriptural evidence seems clear to me.

Which by the way, I don’t feel your arguments have demonstrated otherwise. You haven’t stated what those verses could mean. It seems like your are only cherry picking the words from the entire verse, such as “lost”. He’s not simply ‘lost’, but he’s the son of perdition. Which according to it’s meaning is this

> (in Christian theology) a state of eternal punishment and damnation into which a sinful and unpenitent person passes after death.

So, no I don’t believe that Judas is in heaven or even purgatory and you haven’t really attempted to say what those verses mean in an exegetical manner, but you’ve simply dismissed the interpretations I have given you and have yet to offer any other commentary or insight as to what those verses mean.

To simply say that Judas “turned away” so therefore Jesus did “lose” a disciple, does not explain the other verses or even Jesus’s own words which called him “Son of Perdition.”

 

[vz71]

When you look back at the early church, including it’s missals and prayer books, I don’t believe you’ll find any instances where the Church is recognizing Judas as being in purgatory.

Has the church recognized anyone at all as being in purgatory?

 

[Crusader13]

Has the church recognized anyone at all as being in purgatory?

Not that I’m aware of. But I don’t think the Church has ever taught just how long purgatory will last for any individual. I also don’t know if any of the canonized saints were ever said to have suffered time in purgatory and if it’s a possibility that they did, I don’t know if we’ll ever know how long they spent there.

 

[vz71]

Then it really does not advance anything to point out a lack of church commentary indicating Judas in purgatory.

 

[Crusader13]

Then it really does not advance anything to point out a lack of church commentary indicating Judas in purgatory.

You’re insinuating that because the Church hasn’t formally declared who is or has been in purgatory, that it leaves open the possibility of Judas being in purgatory? If so, that’s quite a leap to make.

The lack of any teachings regarding Judas anywhere but hell speaks volumes. As I’ve stated before, the collection of evidence, both within scripture and tradition points to an overwhelming belief that suggests Judas is in hell.

What I don’t understand is this need to prove that Judas was somehow saved. If there were no other scripture verses after Judas betraying Jesus and he just disappears much like Joseph, than I could see how saying he might be saved could be possible.

Yet, scripture gives us a clear understanding of what befell Judas after his betrayal. It seems like Judas needs to be saved in order for the mercy of Jesus to be proven true or to show us that anyone can and WILL be saved, which doesn’t fit what scripture says. The fact that no pope has since dogmatically defined Judas as being sent to hell is not a sign of Judas having been saved.

 

[vz71]

You’re insinuating that because the Church hasn’t formally declared who is or has been in purgatory, that it leaves open the possibility of Judas being in purgatory? If so, that’s quite a leap to make.

I have made no such leap.
I simply found the flaw in the reasoning.

 

[Crusader13]

I have made no such leap.
I simply found the flaw in the reasoning.

I don’t see it as a flaw at all because there are other teachings that we hold to be true, that don’t have an official Church Dogma attached to them. The OP was asking the question about whether or not Judas was in hell. Some said yes, others said no and many hold that we can’t say for certain.

I’ve tried to show from scripture and tradition that we can say for certain that Judas is in hell. Through my own personal studies it seems like this belief was believed by many in the early church and it is possible that it was a teaching that was simply taken for granted, with no real need to defend. Since it’s not a matter of morals or faith, it may have just fallen by the wayside, but when or how I can only speculate.

It also seems like the belief now days to say that Judas is in hell, is somehow mean spirited and it lessens the mercy of Christ. Again this is merely my own personal belief.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa]

Not true actually, all that are excommunicated are presumed to be in Hell. St. Boniface said he knew 100% that a few Kings are in Hell, the ones he names as the kings if thuringia, an old Germanic state.

 

[OneSheep]

What a saint says is not automatically considered doctrine or a teaching of the Church.

Even saints make errors of judgment.

 

[Crusader13]

What a saint says is not automatically considered doctrine or a teaching of the Church.

Even saints make errors of judgment.

I agree! Much like Saint Pope John Paul II, can be said to have erred in his judgement by proclaiming that we can’t know for certain that Judas is in hell.