Was Judas sent to Hell or was he forgiven?

[OneSheep]

I don’t believe that it takes any “mental gymnastics” to be able to say that Judas is in hell. I can read the words of the Church fathers and see pretty clearly what they are saying regarding Judas and his fate.

Exactly, this is what I am saying. We each enter into the question with an internal bias, it cannot be avoided. For me, it would take some “mental gymnastics” to declare that Judas is in hell based on what I know of Catholic doctrine and the image of God, and nature of man. For you, it takes some “mental gymnastics” to not declare him in hell. Isn’t the way the human mind works amazing?

Which by the way, I don’t feel your arguments have demonstrated otherwise. You haven’t stated what those verses could mean. It seems like your are only cherry picking the words from the entire verse, such as “lost”. He’s not simply ‘lost’, but he’s the son of perdition.

Amazingly enough, there are several different translations of the verse! The New Revised Catholic Version uses the words “the one destined to be lost” instead of “son of perdition” which is the wording found in the version before this one!

The NIV says “the one doomed to destruction” which is similar to my old New American Standard Catholic edition “the one who was destined to be lost”. My Catholic Pastoral edition says “the one who was already lost”.

Just out of curiosity, I checked what the Jesus Seminar came up with, they were a large group of scripture experts who had many ancient language experts in the mix, and they come up with “the one destined to be lost”

It appears that what happened was since the KJV started the “son of perdition” language, many translations after that just went with that. The Catholic scripture scholar I know says that the most accurate version of any Bible is the newest one, because revelation unfolds, and because knowledge of ancient language use and interpretation increases, it does not decrease.

Isn’t it amazing?

you’ve simply dismissed the interpretations I have given you

Actually, I did not dismiss them. I merely presented a different way of looking at them.

 

[deMontfort]

The Catholic scripture scholar I know says that the most accurate version of any Bible is the newest one, because revelation unfolds, and because knowledge of ancient language use and interpretation increases, it does not decrease.

That’s the Modernist heresy. See St Pius X. Oh, and the idea of universal salvation has also been declared a heresy by the Church.

 

[OneSheep]

from Pope St. Leo the Great

The godless betrayer, shutting his mind to all these things [expressions of the Lord’s mercy], turned upon himself, not with a mind to repent, but in the madness of self-destruction: so that this man who had sold the Author of life to the executioners of His death, even in the act of dying sinned unto the increase of his own eternal punishment. (Sermon 62, De passione Domini XI [PL 54], in The Sunday Sermons of the Great Fathers, vol. 2, p. 183)

“Eternal punishment” can mean purgatory, but it can also mean hell. The word “eternal” has a variety of use in the Gospel and in Catholic theology.

St. Augustine

Do we justly execrate the deed of Judas, and does truth itself pronounce that by hanging himself he rather aggravated than expiated the guilt of that most iniquitous betrayal, since, by despairing of God’s mercy in his sorrow that wrought death, he left to himself no place for a healing penitence? … For Judas, when he killed himself, killed a wicked man, and passed from this life chargeable not only with the death of Christ, but also with his own: for though he killed himself on account of his crime, his killing himself was another crime. ( The City of God, Bk. I, ch. 17)

Oh how I love St. Augustine! Such a conflicted man. So, Judas was chargeable for both deaths. This does not automatically put him in hell.

St. Thomas Aquinas

To save Judas would … be contrary to [God’s] foreknowledge and disposition, by which He prepared for him eternal punishment ; hence it is not the order of justice [as such] that renders impossible Judas’s salvation, but the order of eternal foreknowledge and disposition” ( In IV Sent., dist. 46, qu. 1, art. 2, qa. 2, ad 3)

Again, the use of “eternal” has some variety in Christians over the millenia. For example, even when Jesus said “eternal life”, scholars say that He was talking about a free life, a fulfilling life, a holy, just, merciful life.

And, of course, what a saint says is not automatically doctrinal, and we both agree on that!

So do you see what I mean? All the players come with their own set of biases, which brings me back to the questions:

What is your prayer?

Where do you want Judas to be?

 

[OneSheep]

That’s the Modernist heresy. See St Pius X. Oh, and the idea of universal salvation has also been declared a heresy by the Church.

What I said was not the “Modernist heresy”.

CCC66: "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

 

[OneSheep]

It also seems like the belief now days to say that Judas is in hell, is somehow mean spirited and it lessens the mercy of Christ. Again this is merely my own personal belief.

You have experienced judgment from others, concerning your opinion that Judas being in hell is a “fact”?

Have you considered the “do unto others” aspect of all this? For example, after you die would you want people to judge that you are in hell based on your acts, and based on the opinions of some people?

 

[OneSheep]

I think it might be informative for readers to look at this article by Tim Staples:

Are There Souls in Hell Right Now? | Catholic Answers Magazine

Where at the end of the article, he has the confidence to write:

Greater minds than mine, like the aforementioned Hans Urs von Balthasar, and Fr. Robert Barron, have posited the possibility that all men could well be saved. Indeed, Fr. Barron even claims that as Catholics we “must” hold this to be a real possibility.

In a word, both of these great men are wrong.

Since none of us knows if any person is in hell, (except by some private revelation which can be immediately dismissed), there comes another very important aspect in all of this.

As Catholics, we are called to give people the benefit of the doubt. This call is included under charity.

Since no human alive actually knows that Judas chose hell, are we not called to be charitable on the topic? If you were Judas, and you had actually chosen to go to heaven, would you rather want people to forgive you, to understand you, to recognize that you did not know what you were doing?

What is the position of charity?

 

[Crusader13]

You left a lot to unpack in your posts.

According to what it states in Strong’s Greek Concordance concerning the Greek word ἀπωλείας (destruction/loss), Thayer’s Greek Lexicon states the following

b. in particular, the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition, the lot of those excluded from the kingdom of God: Revelation 17:8, 11, cf. Revelation 19:20; Philippians 3:19; 2 Peter 3:16; opposed to ἡ περιποίησις τῆς ψυχῆς, Hebrews 10:39; to ἡ ζωή, Matthew 7:13; to σωτηρία, Philippians 1:28. ὁ υἱός τῆς ἀπωλείας, a man doomed to eternal misery (a Hebraism, see υἱός, 2): 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (of Antichrist); John 17:12 (of Judas, the traitor); ἡμέρα κρίσεως καί ἀπωλείας τῶν ἀσεβῶν, 2 Peter 3:7. (In secular authors from Polybius as above (but see Aristotle, probl. 17, 3, 2, vol. ii., p. 916{a}, 26; 29, 14, 10 ibid. 952^b, 26; Nicom. eth. 4, 1 ibid. 1120{a}, 2, etc.); often in the Sept. and O. T. Apocrypha.)

Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi , "cut off ") – destruction , causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo .) See 622 ( apollymi ).

684 /apṓleia (“perdition”) does not imply “annihilation” (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi , “cut off”) but instead “loss of well -being” rather than being ( Vine’s Expository Dictionary , 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

I would take issue with the scripture scholar who advised you that the “newest” version of any bible is the most accurate one. By that standard, the New World Translation of the JW’s would be considered among the most accurate, simply because of it’s use of the most “recent discoveries” in use for translating scripture.

New versions and updates to bibles may come out, as they so often do, but the reasoning has little to do with any new discoveries regarding ancient manuscripts or artifacts that have been unearthed.

 

[Crusader13]

You have experienced judgment from others, concerning your opinion that Judas being in hell is a “fact”?

Have you considered the “do unto others” aspect of all this? For example, after you die would you want people to judge that you are in hell based on your acts, and based on the opinions of some people?

The “do unto others” aspect of this has nothing to do with what Jesus has already proclaimed concerning Judas. The problem I’m having with your line of reasoning is that, when I read scripture and the Church fathers, I can see where the teaching concerning Judas being in hell is based upon.

So if Scripture is telling me that Judas is in hell, then it really doesn’t matter what I hope for or what I want to happen concerning Judas being saved or being in Heaven. I feel the same principle is also applied to the belief that “all men could be saved.”

With regards to the link by Tim Staples, I’d say that he correctly determines that the possibility that “all could be saved” is wrong. This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t pray for everyone nor does it imply that by stating MANY will go to hell and FEW will enter heaven, we are being uncharitable.

As I’ve stated before, I’m not bias concerning Judas being in hell and I get no sense of vindication by proclaiming that he is there. I’m only reiterating what I believe Scripture has taught, even if it isn’t dogma within the Church. I fail to see how proclaiming Judas to be in hell, is somehow considered uncharitable.

If I were Judas and I had knowledge that there were those who were saying I was in hell based upon what SCRIPTURE said of my fate, then I’d probably be like the rich man and I’d want everybody to know that Hell is real and because of my actions I was in fact in hell. I’d also want my life to be an example of what not to do and serve as a lesson to all those who were following my path.

Which as I said in an earlier post, is probably the reason there are no prayers and feast days concerning Judas and the possibility of his salvation. Yet, I have found teachings and writings on Judas, which are given to us as a warning what will await us, should we choose not to follow Jesus.

 

[J_the_Centrist]

I don’t think that it’s any of our business. Only God knows the answer to this.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Evening

According to what it states in Strong’s Greek Concordance concerning the Greek word ἀπωλείας (destruction/loss), Thayer’s Greek Lexicon states the following

Yeah, the problem with Greek translation is that Jesus did not speak Greek, so when we go from Aramaic to Greek to yet another language, something can get lost. Moving away from the words “son of perdition” is more in line with Jesus’ stated role not to condemn, but to save, and it is more in line with calls to forgive, not to judge.

We can keep in mind that Jesus said “forgive them, for they know not what they do”. Judas did not have a clue what he was doing, but he did seem to wake up a bit after he did his deed.

I would take issue with the scripture scholar who advised you that the “newest” version of any bible is the most accurate one. By that standard, the New World Translation of the JW’s would be considered among the most accurate, simply because of it’s use of the most “recent discoveries” in use for translating scripture.

He was talking about the standard versions, he did not address Jehovah’s Witnesses’.

I can see where the teaching concerning Judas being in hell is based upon.

There is no “teaching” that Judas is in hell in what you have presented so far. No one knows this, and if they state it, it certainly cannot be proven. What you see over the ages are words from some people who naturally resented what Judas did. It’s to be expected.

So if Scripture is telling me that Judas is in hell, then it really doesn’t matter what I hope for or what I want to happen concerning Judas being saved or being in Heaven

So far, in everything you have presented, nothing explicitly says that he is in hell. No one on Earth knows this. People have used scripture to conclude that slavery and keeping women in complete submission are just fine too, but as Catholics we believe that the Spirit guides the Church and her teachings.

Try leaving the “vindication” part aside, that is a separate issue. Did you ever resent Judas and his actions? I certainly did. It is a very normal human reaction, right?

nor does it imply that by stating MANY will go to hell and FEW will enter heaven, we are being uncharitable.

Perhaps not. It may be uncharitable to human dignity to make the statement, but it depends on the context and the way it is stated.

If I say that a certain John Doe is in hell, is that charitable, even if he did many evil things and other people implied that he is in hell?

If I were Judas and I had knowledge that there were those who were saying I was in hell based upon what SCRIPTURE said of my fate

I see, your own view is so factual that you cannot imagine that Judas is in heaven, which is the question I asked. You did not address the possibility because you are completely closed-minded about Judas being anywhere other than hell?

 

[OneSheep]

I’m only reiterating what I believe Scripture has taught…

If you have more scripture to address, bring it forth. So far, your efforts have not shown anything close to conclusive, nothing we could call a “teaching”.

he correctly determines that the possibility that “all could be saved” is wrong.

It would make a great topic for another thread! I do hope that he is not trying to proclaim himself a doctor of the Church. I’m going to go with what the Bishop says instead. For starters, the Bishop is certainly open to a range of possibilities (including that of the critic), while the other point of view states something that simply cannot be known. There are a lot of things in the Bible that are not to be taken literally, and we rely on the guidance of the Spirit to help us sort it out. I think I am more drawn to humble voices, not those who say in writing that a Bishop is wrong about a theological or spiritual issue.

 

[Crusader13]

And a good evening to you as well.

Moving away from the words “son of perdition” is more in line with Jesus’ stated role not to condemn, but to save, and it is more in line with calls to forgive, not to judge.

We can keep in mind that Jesus said “forgive them, for they know not what they do”. Judas did not have a clue what he was doing, but he did seem to wake up a bit after he did his deed.

Your explanation creates more problems than it solves. From my understanding there is a longstanding debate as to whether the NT was originally written in Greek and then transmitted into Aramaic or vice versa. Most scholars I believe hold to a Greek first primacy, but that is not a debate that I’m qualified to solve, nor is that the basis of our talk here. The oldest NT Greek manuscripts we have seem to predate those few written in Aramaic.

Judas walked with Jesus for 3 years, he saw what the other Apostles saw and heard what the other Apostles heard. In the end Judas did not see Jesus for who He was. Much like the Scribes and Pharisees, who Jesus did condemn. The entire 23rd chapter of Matthew is about Jesus denouncing them for their actions. For example,

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in.15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves."

Jesus was praying for all of them who had a hand in his death and crucifixion. He also felt sorrow because many would not heed his call.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate." Matthew 23: 37,38.

So yes Jesus attempted to save many and even after His crucifixion many did in fact repent of their sin and were baptized in His name, as we read in Acts. However, a great multitude did not and what Jesus said would happen to them in Matthew 24, did in fact happen in 70 AD, when the temple was destroyed and thousands were killed at the hands of the Romans. So even though Jesus wanted to save everyone, He still warned them what would happen to them if they refused to see Him for He was. A warning that would be meaningless, by your logic, if Jesus had always planned to SAVE them and let them enter his kingdom, regardless if they accepted Him as their Messiah and Lord or not.

 

[Crusader13]

He was talking about the standard versions, he did not address Jehovah’s Witnesses’.

Nevertheless, the same principle still applies and I would still disagree with his statement.

There is no “teaching” that Judas is in hell in what you have presented so far. No one knows this, and if they state it, it certainly cannot be proven. What you see over the ages are words from some people who naturally resented what Judas did. It’s to be expected.

That’s a big assumption to make. It seems to me that most people have a far greater disdain for Caiaphas, Pilate, Herod, even the entire Jewish High Council, than they do for Judas. But once again you continue to assert that only those with a anti-Judas mindset are the ones who CHOOSE to see Judas in hell. This is merely your own view of the motivation behind those who subscribe to such a belief and its not drawn from scripture.

So far, in everything you have presented, nothing explicitly says that he is in hell. No one on Earth knows this. People have used scripture to conclude that slavery and keeping women in complete submission are just fine too, but as Catholics we believe that the Spirit guides the Church and her teachings.

Not a fair comparison to make, because as I stated in an earlier post, the issue of Judas being in hell is not one of morality or faith. You imply such, because as you’ve stated many times, the belief of Judas being in hell has some underlying motivations; be they personal biases or a failure on one’s own part to see Jesus’ mercy for all, including Judas.

One can resent Judas’s actions, without resenting Judas. Much like we are taught to hate the sin, not the sinner. Something that you seem unwilling to acknowledge, because you keep inferring that to see Judas in hell, is to somehow see him as beyond God’s mercy. Which as I’ve stated numerous times is not the same. I did not JUDGE or PASS SENTENCE on Judas, it was Jesus who referred to him as the “son of perdition/destruction”, “lost”, “better for him to have never been born”.

And the idea that there is no teaching concerning Judas being in hell, is not accurate. I and other’s who believe as much, did not just make this belief up. It’s not as if this view just happened to pop up within the last 50 or even 100 years. I’ve quoted Saints who held this same belief, from centuries past. You claim it’s a belief that is only predicated on their “resentment” of Judas, but the fact remains, that others did hold this view as a teaching. Are we required to hold this belief? NO, but it’s the one that makes the most sense given the totality of evidence concerning both view points. Is it a teaching that is OFFICIALLY taught and defined as DOGMA, No. But again, there are other beliefs and teachings that also don’t have the privilege of being DOGMA, but are still accepted.

 

[Crusader13]

If I say that a certain John Doe is in hell, is that charitable, even if he did many evil things and other people implied that he is in hell?

That’s not at all the same thing. With the exception of Judas, I don’t hold to a belief that we can point to and say with any certainty that an individual is in hell.

I see, your own view is so factual that you cannot imagine that Judas is in heaven, which is the question I asked. You did not address the possibility because you are completely closed-minded about Judas being anywhere other than hell?

I cannot see the possibility of Judas being in heaven because neither Scripture nor the Church, paint this a real possibility for me to see it as such. So far you’ve offered some counter arguments regarding Jesus and His mercy. You’ve attempted to offer different interpretations of what certain verses could potentially mean and you’ve also attempted to infer that I’m blinded by my bias and resentment towards Judas, to the point that it’s left me close minded.

I just don’t find the evidence for your point of view to be compelling. As I’m sure you find mine to be lacking as well.

There are a lot of things in the Bible that are not to be taken literally, and we rely on the guidance of the Spirit to help us sort it out. I think I am more drawn to humble voices, not those who say in writing that a Bishop is wrong about a theological or spiritual issue.

I’ve listened to Tim Staples, in person and through his various DVD’s, CD’s and books and even though he needs no defense from me, he seems about as humble as they come. Just because Bishop Barron carries the title of Bishop and is a member of the clergy, does not mean that he is to be considered more knowledgeable on a subject than any other individual.

You seem quick to assign character flaws to individuals who don’t share in your particular beliefs. Or at the very least you imply that they are affected, in a negative sense, by a mindset that reflects being prideful and swayed by emotional view points which border on being uncharitable and affected by an unwillingness to be open minded.

If I see Judas in hell, it shows a lack of understanding on my part to be able to see Jesus’s love and mercy for all mankind. If previous Saints see Judas in hell, its’ because they too are affected by their “natural” resentment towards Judas. If an individual dares to suggest that a Bishop is “wrong”, then it’s because they have failed to speak with humility.

I found Ralph Martins book ‘Will Many Be Saved’ to be an excellent critique of the same subject matter in the article you posted and why Bishop Barron is wrong.

Most of your arguments seem based upon emotion and a desire to see all men saved, because Jesus’s Mercy trumps all other teachings in the bible, even at the expense of those verses which clearly show that Jesus will also pass judgment on us when we die and MANY will not be saved.

 

[Carmel]

In his classic book ’ The Life of Christ ’

 

[Carmel]

Sorry about the previous post. My computer went on strike and refused to write. This is what I was saying -
In his classic book ’ the Life of Christ ’ Fulton Sheen wrote one chapter comparing Peter and Judas. Peter denied Christ and Judas betrayed Christ by selling Him to the Sanhedrin.
Both of them ’ repented ’ of their sin. He says that Peter repented unto the Lord for what he had done, and so he was forgiven and fully reinstated. But Judas repented unto himself and so committed the sin of despair and killed himself. The tragedy was that Judas could have become St. Judas

 

[OneSheep]

I cannot see the possibility of Judas being in heaven because neither Scripture nor the Church, paint this a real possibility for me to see it as such

There is this:

Matt 19:
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Your explanation creates more problems than it solves. From my understanding there is a longstanding debate as to whether the NT was originally written in Greek and then transmitted into Aramaic or vice versa.

There is some debate, come to find out. In either case, much can be lost in translation.

you continue to assert that only those with a anti-Judas mindset are the ones who CHOOSE to see Judas in hell.

If I communcated an “only”, that is in error. Are you ruling out the possibility that someone who says Judas is in hell actually wants him to be there?

One can resent Judas’s actions, without resenting Judas.

Crusader, have you ever resented anyone?

 

[OneSheep]

You seem quick to assign character flaws to individuals who don’t share in your particular beliefs.

Did you quickly assign that I quickly assign character flaws?

This is what I stated:

“I think I am more drawn to humble voices, not those who say in writing that a Bishop is wrong about a theological or spiritual issue.”

Saying one disagrees with a Bishop, that is one thing. Saying that a Bishop is wrong, well, that is to me a less humble approach.

 

[Seagull]

Wow. 143 replies to this question.

 

[Crusader13]

There is this:

Matt 19:
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

I’m not arguing that God can’t save those who believe they are beyond saving. That whole section is about Jesus referring to those who believe the accumulation of wealth will save them.

Out of all the individuals who had a hand in the death of Jesus, including Caiaphas and Pilate, it is only Judas who receives the harsh condemnation.

And yes I can probably say that I have resented people in my life. For a myriad of actions and reasons. Yet, no matter what my feelings are towards that individual, I can’t justly proclaim that they are in hell, assuming they are dead, or that they will go to hell at the end of their life, simply for what they did.

However, I can look at scripture and say “scripture paints a very serious picture about the reality of hell and those who sin unrepentantly will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven.” That’s why we are urged to not only evangelize others but to keep ourselves from sin as well.