Was Justin Martyr a Mormon?

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Thanks 1AS7 for the correct teaching from the CCC, but don’t you see? One reason I decided to return home to the Catholic Church was the writings of the earliest of Church fathers. My thought was that they would know the truth better than the fathers of the Protestant Reformation. For the early fathers were closer in time to the one who said he is the truth.

But these words of Justin Martyr give me pause and cause me to question my decision. If we cannot trust this early Church father to teach the truth on such a fundamental concept as who Jesus is, then how can I trust my decision to return based on other words of this saint? This is why I’ve started this discussion thread.

I skipped a lot of thread to reply, so i’m sorry if i’m being redundant.

Your intuition that the Church fathers should know better than Martin Luther or Billy Graham is correct, but not a complete statement of the truth. All that was taught by the Apostles is considered divinely revealed and has dogmatic weight (Fides Divina dogma.) but the same is not true of every saint or bishop who came after them, or even in their own times. What the Apostles taught is called the deposit of faith which the Church guards by the charism of infallibility granted to her by the Holy Spirit. When the early church fathers are of one accord in a teaching, and do attribute it to another source it is usually considered an apostolic teaching, but as we have shown Justin Martyr’s confusion about the trinity is I) Not unanimous with other teachings of the fathers and II) is generally considered to be the result of a faulty application of popular philosophy. From this (besides, of course, infallible pronouncements on the subject.) we can say with near certainty that it is not an apostolic teaching but a later innovation. On the other hand his teachings on the Eucharist are unanimously held by all fathers who mentioned the subject, and this teaching is not attributed to an external source, so we can say with near certainty that the Eucharist is from the deposit of faith. Even Aquinas was wrong about the immaculate conception, and that in a fallible but official teaching of the ordinary magisterium, and origen was wrong about almost anything he cared to write about.

I hope this clarification helps.
In Christ,
Iggy.

P.S. Even his flawed teachings on the trinity do not make him a Mormon. Mormons believe that a man like us became God, that Satan was Jesus’ brother, that the American Indians are the lost tribes of Israel, (which DNA proves false.) that Joseph smith was a legitimate prophet of God despite his numerous false prophecies, that the successors of Joseph smith are also prophets with a direct line to God even though their official teachings are contradictory, and a slew of other laughable falsehoods that all the tortures of hell could not have brought Justin Martyr to affirm.

P.P.S. Also, again, that quote of Spock is actually from Spock quoting Sherlock Holmes. It’s the same as if I attributed it to you in my sig.

 

[spockrates]

Sure.

 

[spockrates]

You should like the whole dialogue with Trypho no? It is very Socratic. Did you read all of it yet?

You have to remember, Justin was well educated, which means he understood and used rhetoric. First rule of rhetoric? Isn’t it know your audience? His audience is a group of Jewish men he met on the road while traveling, and the all stopped together for the night, striking up a conversation about Christianity.

Justin Martyr walks them through the OT, pointing out where God is, the names of God, the acts of God, but always he is circling around Jesus.

There is nothing “wrong” in here. For a Christian, the Trinity begins with the Word of God, Jesus Christ. Go back to Sunday’s daily readings. TWO readings, one from the OT, and one from Jesus quoting the OT saying, God is one.

Justin Martyr certainly understood this, and never strays from God is One. No Jewish person, then or now, would listen to anyone who first did not have the unbreakable doctrine, that God is one.

The wiki entry is Mormons, guessing at what they don’t understand. They never begin with the premise that God is one, because for them, God is many. Not only three, but innumerable and unnameable.

Justin Martyr wasn’t a Mormon. A person who believe in the Eucharist, most certainly understands Jesus IS God, and God is One. The two doctrines cannot be separated, and make any sense at all. The Eucharist, for one, would make no sense. Why would we take into ourselves A God, and not THE God?

Very, very paganistic ideas when you head down that path. All of which have been soundly rejected as heresies. Justin Martyr was not a pagan, and he was not a heretic, so adjust your thinking accordingly! Justin Martyr is certainly more trustworthy than the Mighty Wiki that has been edited by people who know nothing about Christianity.

Counter it with a book by Pope Benedict XVI, “Church Fathers, Clement of Rome to Augustine”.

Thanks, Rebecca. Good to talk with you again, BTW!



I shall read it. Will you answer any questions I have as I read?

 

[spockrates]

I skipped a lot of thread to reply, so i’m sorry if i’m being redundant.

Your intuition that the Church fathers should know better than Martin Luther or Billy Graham is correct, but not a complete statement of the truth. All that was taught by the Apostles is considered divinely revealed and has dogmatic weight (Fides Divina dogma.) but the same is not true of every saint or bishop who came after them, or even in their own times. What the Apostles taught is called the deposit of faith which the Church guards by the charism of infallibility granted to her by the Holy Spirit. When the early church fathers are of one accord in a teaching, and do attribute it to another source it is usually considered an apostolic teaching, but as we have shown Justin Martyr’s confusion about the trinity is I) Not unanimous with other teachings of the fathers and II) is generally considered to be the result of a faulty application of popular philosophy. From this (besides, of course, infallible pronouncements on the subject.) we can say with near certainty that it is not an apostolic teaching but a later innovation. On the other hand his teachings on the Eucharist are unanimously held by all fathers who mentioned the subject, and this teaching is not attributed to an external source, so we can say with near certainty that the Eucharist is from the deposit of faith. Even Aquinas was wrong about the immaculate conception, and that in a fallible but official teaching of the ordinary magisterium, and origen was wrong about almost anything he cared to write about.

I hope this clarification helps.
In Christ,
Iggy.

Thanks, Iggy. I hear what you are saying. Perhaps you can give me some more wise counsel? The difficulty I found with reading the New Testament is that important passages are ambiguous to me. For example, when Christ holds up the bread at the last supper and says,

“This is my body.”

I find the meaning uncertain. For I can certainly see what Catholics understand, which is that he meant this:

“This is my [actual] body.”

But I also see the probability that what many Protestants believe him to mean might also be true:

“This is my [symbolic] body.”

That’s one reason why I turned to the early Church fathers for clarification, you see? But if they are mistaken on who Jesus is–thinking him a different god from the Father, or merely an angel, rather than the same God who spoke and nothing became the universe–then how can I also trust what they say about who the Eucharist is? To what authority would you say I should turn to learn the truth?

 

[spockrates]

P.S. Even his flawed teachings on the trinity do not make him a Mormon. Mormons believe that a man like us became God, that Satan was Jesus’ brother, that the American Indians are the lost tribes of Israel, (which DNA proves false.) that Joseph smith was a legitimate prophet of God despite his numerous false prophecies, that the successors of Joseph smith are also prophets with a direct line to God even though their official teachings are contradictory, and a slew of other laughable falsehoods that all the tortures of hell could not have brought Justin Martyr to affirm.

Yes, true. I could have titled the discussion thread, “Was Justin Martyr a Jehovah’s Witness?” but, in light of today’s election, it would not be as interesting a topic of discussion.

P.P.S. Also, again, that quote of Spock is actually from Spock quoting Sherlock Holmes. It’s the same as if I attributed it to you in my sig.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRgQ1JIk-86GyiPYlfwLCbYrBgCz1NhRcFivURh4A3Kv_g45XFuscPS5VAT

Quotes from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (1991)

[Watching a replay of the torpedo hit]

Commander Pavel Chekov: It is Enterprise. We fired.

**Captain Montgomery ‘Scotty’ Scott: **That is not possible! All weapons visually accounted for, sir.

Captain Spock: An ancestor of mine maintained that when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. If we did not fire those torpedoes, another ship did.

Lieutenant Valeris: A bird of prey?

**Spock: **A bird of prey.

Chekov: Cloaked?

**Scott: **A bird of prey cannot open fire when it’s cloaked!

**Spock: **All things being equal, Mr. Scott, I would agree with you. All things, however, are not equal. This one can.

I’d say that since Spock’s ancestor spoke these words when Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s ancestors were still drawing pictures on cave walls, the Vulcan race has a better claim to that bit of wisdom!

 

[KathleenGee]

Bookcat,

Thanks very much for providing us more context regarding St. Justin the Martyr, his background and scope of work.

What we again have to understand is that we apostolic Christians…Catholic/Orthodox universal Christians are collective. That is what it is to be a member of the Church. The Church is a social institution. It is made up of people. In our case, it is the Church whose life comes from Christ Himself through the Holy Spirit built on the foundations of His apostles…And we all know how human they were in the Gospels, and how they changed and became new men at Pentecost, no longer afraid and hiding, but risking death and giving their entire life to the spreading of the Good News.

We are Ecclesial Deists. Our faith is broad enough to believe that Christ founded His Church on human beings and not on the text form through claiming Sola Scriptura. The Mormons reject the Catholic bibles, but use only the Protestant ones. So they are essentially having the same issues of not having faith in God’s authority in our Church. They look too much at individual men and not on Christ present and at work in the Church.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thanks, Rebecca. Good to talk with you again, BTW!



I shall read it. Will you answer any questions I have as I read?

It is good to “see” you too.

A continued discussion on the dialogue with Trypho would be enjoyable. It would give me a chance to read it again as well.

 

[TrueLight]

St. Justin was writing in a time before the Church had formulated these things in an (as it were) standardized way or manner. Indeed, as the filioque controversy bears witness, it can still be difficult to confess the Holy Trinity in a way that all can readily agree upon; notwithstanding, St. Justin does here the Church the service of adamantly testifying to the Church’s belief in the Trinity in the earliest age of the Church (after the Apostles).

I hope this helps!



Agreed.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes…St. Justin the Martyr was most adamant in defending the Holy Trinity.

Belief in the Holy Trinity is what makes Christian baptism valid, and it is the reason that makes Mormon baptism invalid.

Note – the image of the Holy Trinity was already present at the baptism of Christ…Christ, the Father’s voice and the image of the Holy Spirit…all over the head of Christ…as King and Anointed One.

 

[Hunho]

I’d say that since Spock’s ancestor spoke these words when Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s ancestors were still drawing pictures on cave walls, the Vulcan race has a better claim to that bit of wisdom!

Check Spock’s genealogy again. Spock’s father was Vulcan but Spock’s mother was human. Sherlock must have been one of her ancestors!

 

[Holly3278]

I’m sorry but I literally laughed out loud when I saw the title of this thread.

 

[choliks]

Check Spock’s genealogy again. Spock’s father was Vulcan but Spock’s mother was human. Sherlock must have been one of her ancestors!

My thoughts exactly. The vulcans cannot have a better or complete claim on that bit of wisdom since Mr. Spock is half vulcan.

 

[spockrates]

It is good to “see” you too.

A continued discussion on the dialogue with Trypho would be enjoyable. It would give me a chance to read it again as well.

Sweet! I’ll start reading Martyr’s dialog and let you know when I have another question.

 

[spockrates]

Yes…St. Justin the Martyr was most adamant in defending the Holy Trinity.

Belief in the Holy Trinity is what makes Christian baptism valid, and it is the reason that makes Mormon baptism invalid.

Note – the image of the Holy Trinity was already present at the baptism of Christ…Christ, the Father’s voice and the image of the Holy Spirit…all over the head of Christ…as King and Anointed One.

It seems, then there is some disagreement among Catholics, here. Some say Justin Martyr was obviously a believer in the Trinity. Others say he mistakenly believed Christ was a different God than the Father, but Martyr was only human, born to make mistakes. So how do I figure out who is correct in her opinion of the saint?

 

[spockrates]

Check Spock’s genealogy again. Spock’s father was Vulcan but Spock’s mother was human. Sherlock must have been one of her ancestors!

Yes, and I suppose that like Spock, I’m a child of two worlds, finding it hard to call either my home. For I was born Catholic, but left home to dwell with Evangelicals and have now come back. I hope, somehow my history makes me useful to God’s purpose in both worlds.

 

[spockrates]

I’m sorry but I literally laughed out loud when I saw the title of this thread.

It made me smile when I typed it, too!

 

[spockrates]

My thoughts exactly. The vulcans cannot have a better or complete claim on that bit of wisdom since Mr. Spock is half vulcan.

It’s a matter of who said it first, I think!



Similar to the Catholic-Protestant debate: It’s a matter of who said it first. But if Justin Martyr first said Christ was not the same God as the Father, should we consider what the wise Church father had to say?

 

[RebeccaJ]

It seems, then there is some disagreement among Catholics, here. Some say Justin Martyr was obviously a believer in the Trinity. Others say he mistakenly believed Christ was a different God than the Father, but Martyr was only human, born to make mistakes. So how do I figure out who is correct in her opinion of the saint?

Perhaps both are correct, or neither. Perhaps the answer is more nuanced?

 

[1AugustSon7]

Yes, and Justin Martyr’s teachings on the Eucharist are one reason why I returned to the Catholic faith I left as a teen. I’m just taken aback at the fact that his understanding of the truth on another important doctrine now seems to be in error. Not sure I can trust what he says, now.

Saint Justin was not in error: please understand that St. Justin is speaking primarily in philosophical jargin at these points, which -because it is a specialized knowledge- is exactly why this Mormon apologist took it out of context to expose it to controversy.

This can be done with practically any Christian philosophy. Let’s look at Saint Thomas, for instance:

The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in His divinity, assumed our nature, so that He, made man, might make men gods. – St. Thomas Aquinas

Clearly this could be made to sound a lot like Mormonism too, and easily perverted as if St. Thomas meant to say that mankind was elevated by Christ to the same and equal status of God- i.e., that our relationship as creature to Creator was obliterated; however, this is not the case, and it can be proven so from Saint Thomas’ philosophy. With St. Justin, we do not have a collection of his entire philosophical or theoloical doctrine like we do with other Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church; however, the Church both knows and believes that St. Justin was not a heretic, otherwise she would have never acknowledged and honoured him as a saint.

Furthermore, our faith must not rest on arguments, Spockatres. Our faith resides largely in our confession and acknowledgement of the Mystery inherent in Christ:

[13] And Jesus came into the quarters of Caesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? [14] But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. [15] Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?

[16] Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.

The Evangelists all **give different versions of this one confession **made by St. Peter: how come? Firstly is the fact that this confession was said, naturally, in Aramaic and not Greek; moreover, the words used by Saint Peter to express Christ’s mystery have no actual equivalents in any other language: in Aramaic or Hebrew they were probably what we would today called “loaded words”: words or terms that have much more backage, especially in certain contexts/circumstances, than a plain translation into another language could possibly ever hope to render.

Similarly, St. Justin Martyr is desperately trying to confess -using Greek and with the philosophical terminology and nuances of his day- that one ultimately ineffable mystery of Christ. Consequently, we find it easily misunderstood.

Hang in there Spockrates- keep the faith and keep researching and studying this issue. Eventually with God’s grace the problem will be resolved, but not without faith on our parts first.

 

[spockrates]

Perhaps both are correct, or neither. Perhaps the answer is more nuanced?

Well, a statement or proposition that denies another, or itself and is logically incongruous is a logical contradiction, and so is never true. To say (a) is true and (a) is at the same time not true is never true. So how can it be true to say Martyr believed there is only one God and did not believe there is only one God? I suppose he could if he was illogical, but then we should not trust such irrational thinking. Don’t you agree?