Was kneeling during Sunday forbidden at Nicea?

[Patchunky]

The de-emphasis on kneeling had less to do with immitating the Eastern Churches and more with imitating the Lutherans et al…

What came first, the 1st Council of Nicea or the Lutherans:shrug:

 

[Badaliyyah]

I really like your replies. Very insightful. Thanks.

This was a link given to me about kneeling. It appears to argue that it’s not simple a cultural thing but a Biblical one…?

adoremus.org/1102TheologyKneel.html

Your insight and comments are most welcome.

I don’t have anything terribly insightful to say about those passages from the Pope. The best I can say here is that

1. this has nothing to do with the absence of this liturgical practice among Byzantines.

2)The Pope is trying to retain or, even more to the point, RECOVER the practice of kneeling within the Latin liturgical tradition itself. The cultural basis for kneeling is no longer present. In fact, I think you could go further and say that kneeling is culturally repugnant in Europe and especially in America. It is medieval, in the worst sense. (The movie image of a man getting down on one knee to ask a woman to marry him is the only contemporary cultural example I can think of for kneeling in the West).

Now if you hadn’t had this 40ish year interruption of the practice of kneeling this would not be such a big deal for Latins. People having grown up with it, would understand what the act of kneeling meant within the liturgical setting (even though it would still be a cultural anomaly). But you now have a whole generation who have never knelt and an even broader group who have gotten used to not kneeling, and the Pope somehow has to explain to them why they should recover the Latin tradition. This is hard and I don’t envy him the task, because the action of kneeling has almost no positive meaning in their lives.

So the Pope reaches out to Biblical precedent and says: look, this action can mean something other than an act of submission/honor to some feudal lord. When you kneel in the liturgy, you can understand yourself to be kneeling with the prophets, etc., for whom it was worship and adoration. He needs to find some broader meaning by which kneeling can make sense to the Latins, whom he would like to see kneeling more (esp. in reception of the Eucharist, which has no history in the Eastern Churches at all but emerges as normative in the Latin liturgy sometime in the late Middle Ages).

It is hard for to me understand the opening line of that second quote from Benedictgal in any other way (i.e., “Kneeling is not cultural, it is Biblical”…or something to that effect), esp. since he goes on to talk about the cultural significance of the knees in Hebrew and what falling on one’s knees would therefore mean.

salaam.

 

[malphono]

The root is “barak” which means to bless. It’s interesting because the other two words that are used, “eulogia” and “bendictio” have slightly different meanings. “Eulogia” is the Greek source for our word “eulogy” and it means “a good word, praise, blessing” while “benedictio” means “extolling, praise, blessing” – neither carry the concept of kneeling. Now, there is a usage in the Old Testament where “barak” is used to mean “to kneel” – but the most common usage is “bless.” In Psalm 95:6 we read: “Enter, let us bow down in worship; let us kneel before the LORD who made us.” This is the only usage of “barak” in the Old Testament where it is translated as “kneel”.

Nevertheless, we must recognize that the Latin Rite has used kneeling for adoration since the 13th century. The East retains the tradition and discipline of standing. Since it is a canon (discipline) it can be changed and this is what the Latin Church did.

Deacon Ed

In Syriac, the verb brekh in its simple form has as it’s first meaning “to bend the knee, kneel down, bow down.” It’s only in the derived pa’el form that it comes to mean “bless” although I admit that’s the most common form of this particular verb. I don’t have a Hebrew dictionary handy, but I suspect the forms are similar.

 

[chrisb]

Grace and Peace Everyone,

Pardon me if this ended up in the Eastern Catholicism Forum and that gave the impression that I put it here as some kind of criticism toward the Eastern Church. That was not my intention ‘at all’. I put it here because I knew you guys would know Nicea and the traditions of the Old Church.

I just wanted some help. I had not intention of making this some kind of critique of the East.

Pardon me if I gave that appearance.

 

[ronyodish]

chrisb and Deacon Ed,

In the Syriac-Aramaic Scriptures of the Assyro-Chaldeans, the root word brk (ܒܪܟ) is found in both the word for bless and the word for kneel:

For example, from brk we get briyk (ܒܪܝܟ), the word for blessed:

Matt. 21:9

And the people who were going before him and coming after him, were shouting and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

ܟܢܫܐ ܕܝܢ ܐܝܠܝܢ ܕܐܙܠܝܢ ܗܘܘ ܩܕܡܘܗܝ ܘܐܬܝܢ ܒܬܪܗ ܩܥܝܢ ܗܘܘ ܘܐܡܪܝܢ ܐܘܫܥܢܐ ܠܒܪܗ ܕܕܘܝܕ ܒܪܝܟ ܗܘ ܕܐܬܐ ܒܫܡܗ ܕܡܪܝܐ ܐܘܫܥܢܐ ܒܡܪܘܡܐ ܀​

From brk we get barkiyn (ܒܪܟܝܢ), the word for kneeling (in conjunction with “they”), and boorkayhon (ܒܘܪܟܝܗܘܢ), the word for knees (in conjunction with “their”):

Mark 15:19

And they were striking him on his head with a reed and were spitting in his face and were kneeling upon their knees and were worshiping him.

ܘܡܚܝܢ ܗܘܘ ܠܗ ܥܠ ܪܫܗ ܒܩܢܝܐ ܘܪܩܝܢ ܗܘܘ ܒܐܦܘܗܝ ܘܒܪܟܝܢ ܗܘܘ ܥܠ ܒܘܪܟܝܗܘܢ ܘܤܓܕܝܢ ܠܗ ܀​

God bless,

Rony

P.S. malphono, thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut

 

[malphono]

chrisb and Deacon Ed,

In the Syriac-Aramaic Scriptures of the Assyro-Chaldeans, the root word brk (ܒܪܟ) is found in both the word for bless and the word for kneel:

For example, from brk we get briyk (ܒܪܝܟ), the word for blessed:

Matt. 21:9

And the people who were going before him and coming after him, were shouting and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

ܟܢܫܐ ܕܝܢ ܐܝܠܝܢ ܕܐܙܠܝܢ ܗܘܘ ܩܕܡܘܗܝ ܘܐܬܝܢ ܒܬܪܗ ܩܥܝܢ ܗܘܘ ܘܐܡܪܝܢ ܐܘܫܥܢܐ ܠܒܪܗ ܕܕܘܝܕ ܒܪܝܟ ܗܘ ܕܐܬܐ ܒܫܡܗ ܕܡܪܝܐ ܐܘܫܥܢܐ ܒܡܪܘܡܐ ܀​

From brk we get barkiyn (ܒܪܟܝܢ), the word for kneeling (in conjunction with “they”), and boorkayhon (ܒܘܪܟܝܗܘܢ), the word for knees (in conjunction with “their”):

Mark 15:19

And they were striking him on his head with a reed and were spitting in his face and were kneeling upon their knees and were worshiping him.

ܘܡܚܝܢ ܗܘܘ ܠܗ ܥܠ ܪܫܗ ܒܩܢܝܐ ܘܪܩܝܢ ܗܘܘ ܒܐܦܘܗܝ ܘܒܪܟܝܢ ܗܘܘ ܥܠ ܒܘܪܟܝܗܘܢ ܘܤܓܕܝܢ ܠܗ ܀​

God bless,

Rony

P.S. malphono, thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut

Mine was the simpler version … So go ahead show me up … Anyway I don’t have a Semitic keyboard to play with

shlomo ou shaino

 

[ronyodish]

Mine was the simpler version … So go ahead show me up … Anyway I don’t have a Semitic keyboard to play with

shlomo ou shaino

In the end, the simpler version is always the best for others to understand, cause, well, it’s simple and to the point.

I’m detail oriented, so I like to play with details, and bore people to death!

I use copy and paste from this site: pes.scripturetext.com/matthew/1.htm
It’s a whole lot easier than typing out the words. Also, I don’t think one can type Syriac on this forum, though copy and paste seems to work.

bshaina wshlama akhi malpana rabba!

Rony