Was Martin Luther unjustly excommunicated

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ralphinal said:
You must remember that the Bible never says anything about Sola Scriptura, and Jesus does not teach Sola Gratia or Sola Fide. Those are issues for another day…
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Ralph, I thought the CC did believe in Grace Alone.

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]
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vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Would any Lutheran or Catholic disagree with the statement, “we are justified by grace alone through faith because of Christ alone”?

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Ralph, I thought the CC did believe in Grace Alone.

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Would any Lutheran or Catholic disagree with the statement, “we are justified by grace alone through faith because of Christ alone”?

Jon
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It is by God’s Grace alone that even a non-believer exists; or if you want to take it further, those in Hell owe their continued existence to the Grace of God.

Nothing is possible without the grace of God.
 
Luther was excommunicated for his obstinance. He kept claiming he would accept the judgement on his doctrines from a higher authority, but never did. Once he refused to assent to the solemn judgment of the Roman Pontiff, that was that. All he had to do was repent and he would have been restored to communion, but alas…
 
Genesis315 said:
In regards to the Joint Decleration, one must also read this response from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html

It points out where the differences still lie and that certain statements in the Joint Declaration must be interpreted a certain way to be consonant with Catholic teaching.
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I’ve read it, too. But I don’t think it undermines my quote, does it?
By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.
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It certainly doesn’t end our differences on the issue on justification. I was just asking if the Catholic Church accepts the belief that we are justified by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Ralph, I thought the CC did believe in Grace Alone.

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Would any Lutheran or Catholic disagree with the statement, “we are justified by grace alone through faith because of Christ alone”?

Jon
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Yes, and that is the one that I mentioned earlier that we would accept a form of with no trouble. Jesus, however, never said that at all. It is alluded to, and Paul expounds on it, but it is never in the Words of Christ.
 
ralphinal said:
Actually, he had to be excommunicated.

First, he knowingly taught heresy.

Second, he refused to recant or correct his heretical teachings.

Third, the Pope told him he had to recant or he was out.

He was not excommunicated for teaching that the sale of indulgences was wrong. It was the other stuff that did him in, like the five solas. He also violated the vows he took when he became a priest, though that was after the excommunication.

Now, if Lutherans want to take a different position on the five solas and discuss coming home, they will be welcomed. It would be great to have a German Rite.
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Dear brother,

I myself disagree with Martin about what he believed. But, I know that the RCC has done something wrong too (administratively or organization-wise, but not doctrinal). If only both party would step aside for a week or two. Make a deep thinking of each other’s position. Did not afraid of having self introspection. I am sure that the Holy Spirit would have made something. Oh… the world would be different today.
 
swariffin said:
Dear brother,

I myself disagree with Martin about what he believed. But, I know that the RCC has done something wrong too (administratively or organization-wise, but not doctrinal). If only both party would step aside for a week or two. Make a deep thinking of each other’s position. Did not afraid of having self introspection. I am sure that the Holy Spirit would have made something. Oh… the world would be different today.
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“Here I stand, I can do no other” MArtin Luther. He was NOT going to change his mind. That is reality. You must understand that there was much more in play than his views on what he read in the Bible.
 
ralphinal said:
“Here I stand, I can do no other” MArtin Luther. He was NOT going to change his mind. That is reality. You must understand that there was much more in play than his views on what he read in the Bible.
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I was day dreaming that Martin was capable of self-introspection, brother.
 
With_Questions said:
This was from another thread.

So I’m starting this thread so that the very smart people here (of which I am not one of them) can either defend or bash Luther with respect to the excommunication.
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Here’s my answer: who care’s if he was? Luther’s motives were righteous and were pushed back by the church. He was not going to be denied period. Why is it so foreign of an idea that the church was in need of reform? It was all too political and therefore Luther was lucky to escape with his skin not burned to a crisp. The church is ran by humans who make errors. Luther only brought to light that reform was badly needed to make the focus work to bring the church back to course. The church would have none of it.
 
SIA said:
Here’s my answer: who care’s if he was? Luther’s motives were righteous and were pushed back by the church. He was not going to be denied period. Why is it so foreign of an idea that the church was in need of reform? It was all too political and therefore Luther was lucky to escape with his skin not burned to a crisp. The church is ran by humans who make errors. Luther only brought to light that reform was badly needed to make the focus work to bring the church back to course. The church would have none of it.
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And the next statement that I am going to make sums up where you and I differ.

The reforms that the Church needed were in action not doctrine.

Luther could not separate the two.
 
ralphinal said:
And the next statement that I am going to make sums up where you and I differ.

The reforms that the Church needed were in action not doctrine.

Luther could not separate the two.
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It would have been wrong to separate the two in the case of the RCC.
 
SIA said:
It would have been wrong to separate the two in the case of the RCC.
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No, it would not have. If that was true, there could never be reforms in the Church. History has shown a pattern of reform then gradual drifting in the Church. Sometimes, it is due to heresy, as the case in the first 1000 years. At other times, it is due to behavior as it has been since then.

The Dogmas of the Church did not cause the abuse. It was men choosing corruption over the work of God. We still have the same teachings on indulgences as we did then. However, since the Reformation, you do not hear of the selling of them. Why? Because a practice that was incorrect was stopped.

I truly respect you, SIA. I have learned a lot from you. However, at times, I think that you are not impartial in your assessment of the Catholic Church. I am not always impartial, either, but I will admit that. Will you?
 
ralphinal said:
No, it would not have. If that was true, there could never be reforms in the Church. History has shown a pattern of reform then gradual drifting in the Church. Sometimes, it is due to heresy, as the case in the first 1000 years. At other times, it is due to behavior as it has been since then.

The Dogmas of the Church did not cause the abuse. It was men choosing corruption over the work of God. We still have the same teachings on indulgences as we did then. However, since the Reformation, you do not hear of the selling of them. Why? Because a practice that was incorrect was stopped.

I truly respect you, SIA. I have learned a lot from you. However, at times, I think that you are not impartial in your assessment of the Catholic Church. I am not always impartial, either, but I will admit that. Will you?
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I try to be impartial but I am human just like you are. I will admit that there has been some things that have gone on in the RCC over the years that has pretty much cheesed me off.
 
On Reformation Day (October 31) 1999, The Roman Catholic and Lutheran World Federation signed a Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. Contained in that document there was the lifting of condemnations of both Church bodies against each other.

In a wonderful article in the National Catholic Reporter dated Jan 25, 2002. Gregory Baum writes about Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (Benedict XVI) reflections on the Joint Declaration explains how the condemnation were right then and wrong now

Pronouncements of the magisterium are not static. How does one interpret apparent contradictions in the magisterium?
In the bull Unam Sanctam of 1302, Pope Boniface VIII wrote: “We declare, we set forth, we define that submission to the Roman pontiff is necessary for the salvation of any human creature.”
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Council of Florence solemnly declared in 1442 that outside the Catholic church there is no salvation, neither for heretics nor schismatics, even if they should live holy lives or shed their blood in the name of Christ.
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Vatican Council II appeared to proclaim an entirely different doctrine. We read in Gaudium et Spes that since Christ has died for all humans and since the destiny of humanity is one, we are to hold that, in a manner known to God, participation in the mystery of redemption is offered to every human being.
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I have my own opinion about the Church of the 16th Century. In the light of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification at the end of the 20th Century, Martin Luther’s views are now orthodox.
 
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