Was Mary a sinner or not?

[Tommy555]

If we are to believe that Mary the Mother of God was completely sinless in her lifetime from conception to death, how does that reconcile with Romans 3:23 : “All have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God”. This scripture, if interpreted and understood correctly, is saying that all of humanity, including Mary, has sinned. So why does Catholic Doctrine teach that Mary was sinless? Is there a problem with Greek-to-English translation which obscures or consolidates the actual teaching into fewer words?

If you read her magnificat, she refers to “my Savior.” Although she was without sin, it was because of the grace of God. She was human and needed a Savior. Although she was without sin by the grace of God, she was not like Adam and Eve before they sinned. Therefore, Romans 3:23 applied to her also–although she had not sinned. I hope that helps.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If we are to believe that Mary the Mother of God was completely sinless in her lifetime from conception to death, how does that reconcile with Romans 3:23 : “All have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God”. This scripture, if interpreted and understood correctly, is saying that all of humanity, including Mary, has sinned. So why does Catholic Doctrine teach that Mary was sinless? Is there a problem with Greek-to-English translation which obscures or consolidates the actual teaching into fewer words?

For All Have Sinned
A Refutation of the Attack on the Immaculate Conception of Mary from Romans 3:23
(Based on a talk by Karlo Broussard on Catholic Answers Live on 2/11/08)

Many people reject the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and argue that Mary was not born sinless and that she did not remain sinless all of her life. In support of their position, they often quote a passage from Paul’s Letter to the Romans which declares, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23)

However, does this passage really prove that Mary could not have been without sin? And is this really what Paul intended to teach in this passage? Let’s take a closer look.

The primary question to be asked concerning Romans 3:23 is this: When the Bible uses the word “all”, does it necessarily exclude exceptions? The answer is “no” as several scripture passages suggest.

For example, Matthew 3:5 tells us, “People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan.” Does this mean that there were no places from which people did not go out to see Jesus? This is not likely. The author attempted to convey an idea that a large number of people went out to see Jesus by using hyperbole.

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.” Does this mean that every single person ever born will die? Well, the Bible tells us that Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dying, so we know that obviously not all die because these two exceptions exist. From this, we know that the Bible does not necessarily exclude exceptions when it uses the word, “all”.

Returning to Romans 3:23, we should ask further whether Paul intended to exclude exceptions when he used the word, “all”, or is he using it in a non-absolute way? To understand the context of Paul’s thought, we should look at Romans 3:10-12 wherein he quotes Psalm 14:2-3: “As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Does Paul really believe that there no righteous people? Of course not! The Bible tells us that Joseph was a just man (Mt 1:19), John the Baptist’s parents, Zechariah and Elizabeth, were declared righteous (Luke 1:19), and Psalm 14 goes on to speak of “the company of the righteous” in verse 5 while Psalm 15 references those who walk blamelessly and do what is right. So, if Paul is using the word “all” to mean “absolutely no exceptions”, then he is using the word very differently from the verses he quoted from Psalm 14 and from other passages of scripture.

Finally, it is also reasonable for us to assume that Paul would agree that infants and those who are mentally deficient cannot sin personally—two additional exceptions to the concept of “all” having sinned.

Therefore, when Paul uses the word, “all”, it is obvious that he is not attempting to declare that every single individual who ever lives will be guilty of committing personal sin; rather, he is attempting to communicate with clarity the universality of sin and the idea that both Jews and Gentiles alike are sinners before God. He is not attempting to exclude the possibility of exceptions.

Thus, the word “all” in Romans 3:23 cannot be used to disprove the doctrine of sinlessness of Mary.

 

[Cathoholic]

padslvr? You still around?

Below is something from our local men’s Catholic Bible study that may be of help to you or other readers.

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Objection: “ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God!” Yet you Catholics try to take “Mary” as being “sinless”. How un-Biblical! “ALL” have sinned! St. Paul through the Holy Spirit says so.

Answer: The Blessed Virgin Mary IS sinless (the Holy Spirit ALSO teaches that). And “ALL” have indeed sinned and fall short of the glory of God, as Scripture says. But the real issue here is WHAT sense does St. Paul mean by “ALL” in Romans 3:23?

ROMANS 3:23 . . . all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God . . .

As a preface to this study, we will look at Romans 3:23 as it concerns COMMITTED sins.

In THIS study, we’ll only deal with the Romans 3:23 aspect which concerns “sinning” or committing a sin (of “disobedience”) as that’s part of what Romans 3:23 involves (CCC 2809 footnotes Rom. 3:23 ).

CCC 2809c . . . . but by sinning, man fell “short of the glory of God.”

The Greek root word for “all” in Romans 3:23 is “pas” (or paz).

ROMANS 3:23 . . . “pantas” (from pas) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God . . .

The Biblical Greek (“Koine Greek”) word for “all” has different definitions/meanings. It may mean a collective sense, an approximate sense, or distributive sense.

• Collective sense of “all” = Every group or every category.
• Approximate sense of “all” = “Most” or even “many”.
• Distributive sense of “all” = Every single solitary individual one.

Concerning the commission of sins , the “all” here in Romans 3:23 MUST be being used in a COLLECTIVE sense.

All peoples have sinned—both Gentiles and Jews. That’s the immediate context here, and the larger Biblical context as well in Romans 3:23.

Why? . . . Let’s find out “WHY” . . .

Continued (next post) . . . .

 

[Cathoholic]

Continued from last post . . .

• Collective sense of “all” = Every group or every category.
• Approximative sense of “all” = “Most” or even “many”.
• Distributive sense of “all” = Every single solitary individual one.

Concerning the commission of sins , the “all” here in Romans 3:23 MUST be being used in a COLLECTIVE sense.

All peoples have sinned—both Gentiles and Jews. That’s the immediate context here, and the larger Biblical context as well in Romans 3:23.

Why? . . . Let’s find out “WHY” . . .

Immediate Biblical Context

Contextually Romans 3:23 is talking about “ALL” have sinned in a collective sense. Both groups or categories of peoples, Jews and Gentiles are under the power of sin—ALL are. Not just Gentiles but Jews AND Gentiles are BOTH under the power of sin. That’s the correct context of “all” have sinned and fall short of the glory of God here—a collective sense and NOT a distributive sense!

ROMANS 3:9-11, 22, 29 9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, 10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands, no one seeks for God. . . . . . . . 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, . . . . 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, . . . .

Larger Biblical Context

---

As TimothyH had already said (here).

This passage is drawing from the Old Testament (in the same contextual way—all peoples in a broad sense [in a collective sense]).

We did not detail the Old Testament aspects in this study for time saving purposes but TimothyH is absolutely correct on this point. Back to the study excerpt.

---

Larger Biblical Context

Also “ALL” cannot be being used in the distributive sense in Romans 3:23 because if it were, that would make Jesus a “committer” of sins.

Jesus is part of “all” but He is clearly NOT a committer of sins (Jesus is True God and True Man and thus cannot sin. Jesus was/is not a sinner—John 1:14, Hebrews 4:15, 2nd Corinthians 5:21, 1st Peter 2:22, Colossians 1:19 and 2:9, and elsewhere—Jesus is not a committer of sins ).

There are even other people who are not committers of sins!

Babies or life long profoundly mentally retarded people have never committed sins of disobedience (they do have Original Sin).

In Romans 5, St. Paul IS talking about Original Sin and tells us “death reigned” for all people because of it.

Yet St. Paul says something very curious here. He distinguishes people who did NOT SIN like “the transgression of Adam”.

People that did not have a sin of “disobedience” like Adam.

People who, as the Douay-Rheims translation says; “who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam”!

But these people who are not committers of sin, are still stuck with effects (“death”) of Original Sin. Let’s look at another translation—the RSV-CE—and see the same thing.

ROMANS 5:14 (RSV-CE) 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

WHO could these people be, who have never “transgressed” like “Adam” did? WHO could they be, that never “transgressed” in disobedience? WHO are these NON-transgressors of Adam’s sin, yet death still somehow reigns over them anyway (Remember. Death does NOT “reign” over Christ)?

St. Paul is almost certainly discussing babies and (earthly) perpetually profoundly mentally retarded people here in Romans 5:14 as the people who never had sins like “the transgression of Adam”.

Probably

• Babies
• Profoundly mentally handicapped people

(But at least notice from Romans 5:14, there are SOME people who haven’t committed sins!).

Even a Protestant translation like the NIV can give us insight into this.

ROMANS 5:14 (NIV — A Protestant Bible Translation) 14. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

Can you think of any of “those” who die anyway, but never sinned by “breaking a command”?

Yes! Little infants and lifelong profoundly retarded people!

That is undoubtedly who St. Paul is referring to here in Romans 5:14 (again, at least notice there are SOME people who haven’t committed sins!).

Once we see this “all” concerning “all have sinned” is not of a distributive sense regarding committing sins, then you are left with. . . .

. . . .“Who are these people who are free from COMMITTING sins?” . . .

. . . . And NOT . . .

. . . . “NOBODY is free from COMMITTING sins, so Mary cannot be sinless!”

The sinlessness of Mary cannot honestly rationally be objected to, on the grounds of Romans 3:23.

An objector has to give other information to exclude the Blessed Virgin Mary from Her being sinless . . . . and as we will see in other studies . . . that is as impossible as it is untrue.

 

[rick607]

We sin in 3 basic ways.

1 - Yes all people ever born in the womb are sinners by NATURE.​

2 - We sin by our THOUGHTS.​

3 - The sin we all can see is OUR ACTIONS.​

So yes we worship Jesus only . Not the Angels ( as pointed out by them in various scriptures --Get up DON’T do that Worship God only see revelation many times.)

No one comes to the father but by me. ( Jesus ) The only perfect ( sinless) sacrifice !!

Mary was chosen by the grace of God ( she was faithful) just like Jews were chosen as Gods people . Just like Bethlehem was chosen . Just like you who are reading this was chosen…not because you were without sin , but by his Grace and Mercy !

 

[Ignatius]

For All Have Sinned
A Refutation of the Attack on the Immaculate Conception of Mary from Romans 3:23
(Based on a talk by Karlo Broussard on Catholic Answers Live on 2/11/08)

Many people reject the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and argue that Mary was not born sinless and that she did not remain sinless all of her life. In support of their position, they often quote a passage from Paul’s Letter to the Romans which declares, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23)

However, does this passage really prove that Mary could not have been without sin? And is this really what Paul intended to teach in this passage? Let’s take a closer look.

The primary question to be asked concerning Romans 3:23 is this: When the Bible uses the word “all”, does it necessarily exclude exceptions? The answer is “no” as several scripture passages suggest.

For example, Matthew 3:5 tells us, “People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan.” Does this mean that there were no places from which people did not go out to see Jesus? This is not likely. The author attempted to convey an idea that a large number of people went out to see Jesus by using hyperbole.

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.” Does this mean that every single person ever born will die? Well, the Bible tells us that Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dying, so we know that obviously not all die because these two exceptions exist. From this, we know that the Bible does not necessarily exclude exceptions when it uses the word, “all”.

Returning to Romans 3:23, we should ask further whether Paul intended to exclude exceptions when he used the word, “all”, or is he using it in a non-absolute way? To understand the context of Paul’s thought, we should look at Romans 3:10-12 wherein he quotes Psalm 14:2-3: “As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Does Paul really believe that there no righteous people? Of course not! The Bible tells us that Joseph was a just man (Mt 1:19), John the Baptist’s parents, Zechariah and Elizabeth, were declared righteous (Luke 1:19), and Psalm 14 goes on to speak of “the company of the righteous” in verse 5 while Psalm 15 references those who walk blamelessly and do what is right. So, if Paul is using the word “all” to mean “absolutely no exceptions”, then he is using the word very differently from the verses he quoted from Psalm 14 and from other passages of scripture.

Finally, it is also reasonable for us to assume that Paul would agree that infants and those who are mentally deficient cannot sin personally—two additional exceptions to the concept of “all” having sinned.

Therefore, when Paul uses the word, “all”, it is obvious that he is not attempting to declare that every single individual who ever lives will be guilty of committing personal sin; rather, he is attempting to communicate with clarity the universality of sin and the idea that both Jews and Gentiles alike are sinners before God. He is not attempting to exclude the possibility of exceptions.

Thus, the word “all” in Romans 3:23 cannot be used to disprove the doctrine of sinlessness of Mary.

. . . reconcile with Romans 3:23

What an Excellent exposition of the Scripture.I hope the OP got a chance to read this.
Padslvr, do you understand now?

 

[hu324b]

By Gods grace