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eamonnroma
Guest
I think that the honest answer is that we do not know
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Steveabrous
Guest
The Protoevangelium ends just before they present him to the temple.
It does not say anything about him performing miricles. You must be thinking of another infancy Gospel.
Also it only says that she recieved food from the hand of an angel. It does not say an Angel came down everyday to feed her.
I know you guys don’t approve of it, but there is no need to lie.
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Steveabrous
Guest
** /B]
Hey it is a nice narrative. A good story like many of these legendary stories floating around… And if you want to accept it as truthful and believable go for it.
But realize, it has way too many holes in it to really be much more than a curiosity from antiquity.**
I have already made my opinion on this document very clear but you are apparently not paying attention, and more interested in being snarky, so I will post it again:
O.k I am going to try to make this clear.
The Protoevangelium of James IS:
However:
- Not scripture
- Not without error
That doesn’t mean:
- Is an early writing and reflective of what the early church believed about Mary
- Not irrelevant
- Not completely unreliable
- Which is evident since many Catholic apologists refer to it when defending Marian doctrine ( For the 4th time)
- since the subject is Mary’s early childhood, and apologists refer to it in discussing Mary’s early childhood (for the fifth time) I think it is worth considering what it says on the subject.
-It is absolutely right on the subject
-Or that it over rides any other source
Since:
-the bible is silent on the matter( It does say she had a sister but it also says Christ had brothers so we can’t exactly say “The bible says so!”)
I have said all of this on this thread multiple times.
- And it is not in contrast with church teaching ( As one poster erroneously said)
-And it is referenced constantly in Catholic apologetics (for the 6th time)- I believe it is worth looking at on this subject.
Are you saying we shouldn’t consider early church sources like, the shepherd, the writings or Oregeon, Ignatius, Justin, Ireanaeus, etc. on this or other subjects the bible, or the magisterium or not clear on?
It is these writings that are responsible for massive conversions the Catholicism.
And, again for the 7th time, It is these writtings that Catholic apologists refer to to prove Catholicism.
Also, I would point out that the gospels themselves were not written by the person they are attributed to, but were written later by someone who studied under them. the fact that the account was written much later, after James died, proves nothing. Not that I believe it is really an account by James. Only that it reflects church belief on the subject of Mary.
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JohnR77
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There is good evidence that Salome was Mary’s cousin. I am not claiming that this is defined doctrine, but interesting.
See more at
defendingthebride.com/ma2/brothers.html
John
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Mike30
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I believe the miracle being referred to was from this passage.
1 And the midwife went in and said unto Mary: Order thyself, for there is no small contention arisen concerning thee. Arid Salome made trial and cried out and said: Woe unto mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God, and lo, my hand falleth away from me in fire. And she bowed her knees unto the Lord, saying: O God of my fathers, remember that I am the seed of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob: make me not a public example unto the children of Israel, but restore me unto the poor, for thou knowest, Lord, that in thy name did I perform my cures, and did receive my hire of thee.
3 And lo, an angel of the Lord appeared, saying unto her: Salome, Salome, the Lord hath hearkened to thee: bring thine hand near unto the young child and take him up, and there shall be unto thee salvation and joy.
4 And Salome came near and took him up, saying: I will do him worship, for a great king is born unto Israel. And behold immediately Salome was healed: and she went forth of the cave justified. And Io, a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell none of the marvels which thou hast seen, until the child enter into Jerusalem.
I would guess that the hand was healed by Jesus and not the Angel, but hey, I could be wrong.
My bad on the every day feeding. It appeared to me and to most serious scholars of this narrative, that when it was stated that Mary was fed by the hand of an angel, it didn’t refer to one single event but rather was her normal way of being fed while living her sanctified, pure life in the Temple.
I also found this passage quite amazing and entertaining
.And the priest received her and kissed her and blessed her and said: The Lord hath magnified thy name among all generations: in thee in the latter days shall the Lord make manifest his redemption unto the children of Israel. And he made her to sit upon the third step of the altar. And the Lord put grace upon her and she danced with her feet and all tile house of Israel loved her.
Pretty bad that the Priests apparently forgot about this after Jesus grew up.
Oh well, can’t have everything I guess.
Hey as I have said its a cute story and maybe, presents in some form or another some of the beliefs that people had about Mary. Maybe.
How I feel about it is pretty clear. I put it on about the same level as the story of Athena springing fully grown out of Zeus head and consider it just about about as reliable and believable…
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marymary1975
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Thanks Mike for posting that as that was the miracle I refered to. The church is clear that Jesus did not perform any miracles at all before the weddings on Cana, here we have newborn Jesus performing miracles. Moreover the angel is telling Salome not to speak about anything until Jesus goes to Jerusalem? This doesn’t make sense with the scripture.I believe the miracle being referred to was from this passage.
1 And the midwife went in and said unto Mary: Order thyself, for there is no small contention arisen concerning thee. Arid Salome made trial and cried out and said: Woe unto mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God, and lo, my hand falleth away from me in fire. And she bowed her knees unto the Lord, saying: O God of my fathers, remember that I am the seed of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob: make me not a public example unto the children of Israel, but restore me unto the poor, for thou knowest, Lord, that in thy name did I perform my cures, and did receive my hire of thee.
3 And lo, an angel of the Lord appeared, saying unto her: Salome, Salome, the Lord hath hearkened to thee: bring thine hand near unto the young child and take him up, and there shall be unto thee salvation and joy.
4 And Salome came near and took him up, saying: I will do him worship, for a great king is born unto Israel. And behold immediately Salome was healed: and she went forth of the cave justified. And Io, a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell none of the marvels which thou hast seen, until the child enter into Jerusalem.
I would guess that the hand was healed by Jesus and not the Angel, but hey, I could be wrong.
My bad on the every day feeding. It appeared to me and to most serious scholars of this narrative, that when it was stated that Mary was fed by the hand of an angel, it didn’t refer to one single event but rather was her normal way of being fed while living her sanctified, pure life in the Temple.
I also found this passage quite amazing and entertaining
.And the priest received her and kissed her and blessed her and said: The Lord hath magnified thy name among all generations: in thee in the latter days shall the Lord make manifest his redemption unto the children of Israel. And he made her to sit upon the third step of the altar. And the Lord put grace upon her and she danced with her feet and all tile house of Israel loved her.
Pretty bad that the Priests apparently forgot about this after Jesus grew up.
Oh well, can’t have everything I guess.
Hey as I have said its a cute story and maybe, presents in some form or another some of the beliefs that people had about Mary. Maybe.
How I feel about it is pretty clear. I put it on about the same level as the story of Athena springing fully grown out of Zeus head and consider it just about about as reliable and believable…
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farmersboy
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Immacolata
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Although this question has (likely) been answered (and debated), I thought I would add my (name removed by moderator)ut.
To my knowledge, the Church has no official teaching on whether Our Immaculate Lady was the only child of Sts. Joachim and Anne, although some believe Mary’s sister is referred to in Scripture:
[BIBLEDRB]John 19:25[/BIBLEDRB]
However, others, along with the explanation for the “brothers and sisters” of Jesus, believe that Mary, the wife of Cleophas (if the latter is the woman being referred to as “his mother’s sister”), is Mary’s cousin, for several reasons (prominently — why would Joachim and Anne name both daughters Mary?); in my own opinion, I believe Our Lady was an only child, and Mary, the wife of Cleophas, was her cousin (such as St. Elizabeth).
To my knowledge, the Church has no official teaching on whether Our Immaculate Lady was the only child of Sts. Joachim and Anne, although some believe Mary’s sister is referred to in Scripture:
[BIBLEDRB]John 19:25[/BIBLEDRB]
However, others, along with the explanation for the “brothers and sisters” of Jesus, believe that Mary, the wife of Cleophas (if the latter is the woman being referred to as “his mother’s sister”), is Mary’s cousin, for several reasons (prominently — why would Joachim and Anne name both daughters Mary?); in my own opinion, I believe Our Lady was an only child, and Mary, the wife of Cleophas, was her cousin (such as St. Elizabeth).
I have read of this theory as well; I found it very interesting.
Agreed.
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DaveBj
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Or, Luke could have been referring to four women: 1) His mother and 2) His mother’s sister, 3) Mary of Cleophas and Mary Magdalen (“A and B, C and D”). There is precedent for this in Luke’s Gospel; this is precisely how he listed the 12 apostles in 6:14-15: A and B, C and D, E and F, etc.
Mark named only three women. He omitted Mary the mother of Jesus, but named 1) Mary Magdalen, 2) Mary the mother of Joses and James the Less (this would be Mary of Cleophas) and 3) Salome (this would be the sister of Mary, Jesus’ mother). Matthew identified 1) Mary Magdalen, 2) Mary the mother of James and Joses, and 3) the mother of Zebedee’s sons (= the sister of Mary the mother of Jesus, = Salome).
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Immacolata
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I agree, I have seen this theory of Luke’s writing, and included it in my text with:
I apologize for any confusion.
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JohnR77
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Dave,
That is an insightful observation. Matthew follows this pattern even more so.
See Matthew 10:2-4
Compares with that of John’s list of the women
John
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Steveabrous
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Sorry but I don’t see this saying Jesus performed a miracle. It say “The Lord” Which could mean Jesus, or God in Heaven. But it does not say Jesus performed a miracle. I think a logical person would assume that “The Lord” in this passage would be refuring to God in general, not the baby Jesus.
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Steveabrous
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Really? I would be interested in seeing a source on this
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Steveabrous
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I think ,logically, it would just be God in general that healed. Since Jesus didn’t do anything but be picked up I hardly think this counts as Jesus performing a miracle. And since the Angel told her to do it and Not Jesus I think it safe to assume the angel was following orders from upstairs to show how special the child is. Or did the baby Jesus tell the angel to tell her to pick him up? Why didn’t the baby Jesus tell Salome to him up himself. If he did that I would say that you have an undisputable example. But as it is you don’t.
WOW!! I didn’t realize you were such a serious scholar. Not that I doubt your credintials but do you have sources from these other ***CATHOLIC ***serious scholar that agree with you? Notice that I empasised Catholic as I will not accept any other source. I have, after all, provided at least 1 example of scholars who refer to the Protoevangelium to support catholic doctrine.
Also, since you are a serious scholar I would like to ask; I noticed that Mary’s parent Joachim and Anne have a feast day coming up July 26th. That tells me that the Catholic Church accepts that these two people are indeed Mary’s parent. Is there another source besides the Protoevangelium of James to support that these two, Joachim and Anne, are indeed the Parents of Mary? Because most ***serious scholars *** I have read point to the Protoevangelium as evidence of this.
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PJM
Guest
Not only does Sacred Tradition hold that Mary was indeed an ONLY child; she was a VERY late age miracle child. Where God directly intervened with her aged parents to make this birth possible and erase the [then common] distain and humilation of being childless.
God to:
www. newadvent.org
under M for MARY
God Bless:thumbsup:
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marymary1975
Guest
Haven’t you read the wedding of Cana in the bible? That is the source. That was jesus’first miracle.
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Steveabrous
Guest
You said " The church is clear that Jesus did not perform any miracles at all before the weddings on Cana"
Last I checked the Church did not subscribed to Sola-scriptura otherwise we have no grounds to believe in the Assumption of Mary, or the Immaculate conception.
Do you have a papal document or a quote from the Catechism? If not then the church is silent on the matter and you are presenting your personal beliefs as church teaching, a problem all too common in the laity these days.
I will say that I have heard Catholic scholars say that Jesus waited until Mary was ready for him to start his ministry and that the wedding at Cana was his first public miracle. In other words it was Mary saying “I am ready to let go of you now” I don’t know that the Church definatively says he performed no miracles before that.
And As I pointed out to the other gentleman, I do not see the example of Salome being healed when she picked up the baby Jesus as Jesus performing a miracle, but rather God in general doing it. Or it could be more like the woman who had bleeding and touched Jesus garment and was healed. Jesus did not perform a miracle, it was actually done without his knowledge or consent . the angel told her to pick him up and she was healed. As I pointed out there is scriptural support of people being healed when they touch Jesus.
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SAVINGRACE
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Wow I’ve created a monster with this thread. Thought it would be answered in 5posts… 
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Joe_5859
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Wow I’ve created a monster with this thread. Thought it would be answered in 5posts…
You must be new here. 
Yes, it really could have been answered in two posts:
Post #1: Was Mary an only child?
Post #2: We don’t know.
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