C
Cardinalsin
Guest
why do we say assumed and not resurrected aren’t they the same?
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M
Memaw
Guest
She went to Heaven Body and Soul, no separation. Her body did not need to Resurect! God Bless, Memawwhy do we say assumed and not resurrected aren’t they the same?
T
twf
Guest
This isn’t necessarily the case. The predominant tradition of the Church, both East and West, as testified to by icons, the Fathers, the liturgy, and even private revelations, is that Our Lady first died in the flesh, was raised to new life, and then assumed, body and soul into heaven. While the Dogmatic definition itself does not specify that she first died and was raised, this appears to be what Pope Pius XII believed when you read through the entirety of Munificentissimus Deus:She went to Heaven Body and Soul, no separation. Her body did not need to Resurect! God Bless, Memaw
w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus.html
The idea that Our Lady didn’t first die is very novel indeed…foreign to the early and even medieval Church. If you visit St. Mary’s Major in Rome, the most important Marian church in Latin Christendom, you’ll see iconography depicting her Dormition (death), resurrection, and assumption.
Why some want to rob Our Lady of the great honour of dying and rising with Christ is beyond me. The Lord is the “firstborn from among the dead”. Our Lady is the perfect prototype of the Church… it follows that She, like the Church, would die and rise again with Her Son.
S
steve93
Guest
The Theotokos reposed in the care of the Apostles after being told by God that that She would soon die. Later, not being present at Her Dormition, St. Thomas wished to venerate Her Most Pure corpse, but instead found the tomb empty.
The Mother of God then appeared to the twelve, promising to be with them always.
The Mother of God then appeared to the twelve, promising to be with them always.
T
twf
Guest
Yes, this is ultimately the tradition upon which Pius XII built his entire case for the Dogma of the Assumption. I repeat…why some of my fellow Catholics wish to deprive Our Lady of the great honour of dying and rising in Christ, when all of tradition says that she did, is beyond me. No, her death is not dogma…but there’s no reason to believe otherwise…not one hint among the Fathers.The Theotokos reposed in the care of the Apostles after being told by God that that She would soon die. Later, not being present at Her Dormition, St. Thomas wished to venerate Her Most Pure corpse, but instead found the tomb empty.
The Mother of God then appeared to the twelve, promising to be with them always.
S
steve93
Guest
From what I understand, at some point the idea grew in the west that Our Lady was carried into heaven directly, somewhat like Enoch .Yes, this is ultimately the tradition upon which Pius XII built his entire case for the Dogma of the Assumption. I repeat…why some of my fellow Catholics wish to deprive Our Lady of the great honour of dying and rising in Christ, when all of tradition says that she did, is beyond me. No, her death is not dogma…but there’s no reason to believe otherwise…not one hint among the Fathers.
C
ClearWater
Guest
I was wondering the same thing.
Mary did not raise herself up, but Jesus did. That seems to be the difference between resurrection and assumption.
Here’s the website I found that explanation on. catholicbridge.com/catholic/mary_assumption_into_heaven.php
Mary did not raise herself up, but Jesus did. That seems to be the difference between resurrection and assumption.
Here’s the website I found that explanation on. catholicbridge.com/catholic/mary_assumption_into_heaven.php
M
Memaw
Guest
NONE of this is Dogma. The Church only says, “When the course of Her earthly life was over, She ascended into Heaven, Body and Soul.” One of God’s GREAT Mysteries. Jesus died carrying OUR sins, Mary NEVER sinned. Death is a result of SIN!!! God Bless, MemawThe Theotokos reposed in the care of the Apostles after being told by God that that She would soon die. Later, not being present at Her Dormition, St. Thomas wished to venerate Her Most Pure corpse, but instead found the tomb empty.
The Mother of God then appeared to the twelve, promising to be with them always.
A
Ad_Orientem
Guest
I think y’all mean the difference between **ascension **and assumption. Jesus ascended of His own power; Mary was assumed into heaven by the power of God.Mary did not raise herself up, but Jesus did. That seems to be the difference between resurrection and assumption.
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PopePiusXIISupp
Guest
Yes. It is dogma that She was assumed Body and Soul into Heaven.
If you read Munificentissimus Deus, it becomes manifest that the Holy Father taught that our Immaculate Lady died an earthly death before being assumed bodily into Heaven. This belief is stated repeatedly in the text of Munificentissimus Deus. Here are some examples from Munificentissimus Deus:
Citing Pope Adrian I, His Holiness Pope Pius XII records:
"Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.”
Citing the Byzantine liturgy:
"As he kept you a virgin in childbirth, thus he has kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb.”
Citing Saint Modestus, the Holy Father writes:
"As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.”
The citations employed by Pope Pius XII reveal that he believed and intended to show that the Immaculate Virgin Mary did in fact undergo death prior to her glorious Assumption.
Death is the separation of the body from the soul. When the soul leaves the body, you are dead. Traditional iconography shows the soul of Mary separate from her body.
It should be stated that Mary did not die because of sin, but rather in her desire to be conformed to Christ in all things – to be the speculum justitiae, mirror of justice. Her death gave her dominion over Purgatory as prophesied in Ecclesiasticus 24 and gave her more meritorious prayers for those in the hour of death.
If you would like a detailed defense of the death of the Immaculate Virgin, see the Glories of Mary by Saint Alphonsus Liguori, a doctor of the Church.
The Eastern Churches celebrate a mini-Lent before the Assumption from August 1-14. In addition to fasting, the Eastern Christians chant the Paraklesis Canon to the Mother of God from August 1-13. There is a tradition is that she died at 3pm on August 13 and rose again and was assumed into Heaven on August 15. Her death on August 13 is still commemorated in Jerusalem to this day. Hence Aug 13-15 is a Marian Triduum or “three-day” death and resurrection cycle. In fact, the Jerusalem rite for Matins on August 14 are those of Holy Saturday. In Jerusalem, the liturgy of her death begins on the evening of August 12.
taylormarshall.com/2013/08/did-the-virgin-mary-die.html
If you read Munificentissimus Deus, it becomes manifest that the Holy Father taught that our Immaculate Lady died an earthly death before being assumed bodily into Heaven. This belief is stated repeatedly in the text of Munificentissimus Deus. Here are some examples from Munificentissimus Deus:
Citing Pope Adrian I, His Holiness Pope Pius XII records:
"Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.”
Citing the Byzantine liturgy:
"As he kept you a virgin in childbirth, thus he has kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb.”
Citing Saint Modestus, the Holy Father writes:
"As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.”
The citations employed by Pope Pius XII reveal that he believed and intended to show that the Immaculate Virgin Mary did in fact undergo death prior to her glorious Assumption.
Death is the separation of the body from the soul. When the soul leaves the body, you are dead. Traditional iconography shows the soul of Mary separate from her body.
It should be stated that Mary did not die because of sin, but rather in her desire to be conformed to Christ in all things – to be the speculum justitiae, mirror of justice. Her death gave her dominion over Purgatory as prophesied in Ecclesiasticus 24 and gave her more meritorious prayers for those in the hour of death.
If you would like a detailed defense of the death of the Immaculate Virgin, see the Glories of Mary by Saint Alphonsus Liguori, a doctor of the Church.
The Eastern Churches celebrate a mini-Lent before the Assumption from August 1-14. In addition to fasting, the Eastern Christians chant the Paraklesis Canon to the Mother of God from August 1-13. There is a tradition is that she died at 3pm on August 13 and rose again and was assumed into Heaven on August 15. Her death on August 13 is still commemorated in Jerusalem to this day. Hence Aug 13-15 is a Marian Triduum or “three-day” death and resurrection cycle. In fact, the Jerusalem rite for Matins on August 14 are those of Holy Saturday. In Jerusalem, the liturgy of her death begins on the evening of August 12.
taylormarshall.com/2013/08/did-the-virgin-mary-die.html
P
PopePiusXIISupp
Guest
For these reasons we believe that the promises our Lord has given to each of us of sharing eternal life, including a resurrection of the body, were fulfilled in Mary. Since Mary was free of Original Sin and its effects (one of which is corruption of the body at death), since she shared intimately in the life of the Lord and in His passion, death and resurrection, and since she was present at Pentecost, this model disciple appropriately shared in the bodily resurrection and glorification of the Lord at the end of her life. (Note that the solemn definition does not specify whether Mary physically died before being assumed or just was assumed; it simply states, “Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life…”)
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, also quoting the Byzantine Liturgy, states, “The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: ‘In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition (falling asleep) you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death’” (No. 966).
The belief in the Assumption of our Blessed Mother has been longstanding in our Church. We must remember that the early Church was preoccupied with resolving questions about Christ, particularly His incarnation and the hypostatic union (His divine and human natures). However, in addressing these questions, the Church gradually defined the titles of Mary as Mother of God and as New Eve, and the belief of the Immaculate Conception, all of which form the basis for the Assumption.
In Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII cited various Church Fathers to trace the longstanding tradition of the belief of the Assumption–St. John Damascene, St. Andrew of Crete, St. Modestus of Jerusalem and St. Gregory of Tours, to name a few. Bishop Theoteknos of Livias (c. 550- 650) delivered one of the most comprehensive early sermons concerning the Assumption: “For Christ took His immaculate flesh from the immaculate flesh of Mary, and if He had prepared a place in heaven for the Apostles, how much more for His mother; if Enoch had been translated and Elijah had gone to heaven, how much more Mary, who like the moon in the midst of the stars shines forth and excels among the prophets and Apostles? For even though her God-bearing body tasted death, it did not undergo corruption, but was preserved incorrupt and undefiled and taken up into heaven with its pure and spotless soul.”
St. John Damascene (d. 749) also recorded an interesting story concerning the Assumption: “St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.” In all, the Patristic Fathers defended the Assumption on two counts: Since Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin, she could not suffer bodily deterioration, the result of Original Sin, after her death. Also, if Mary bore Christ and played an intimate role as His mother in the redemption of man, then she must likewise share body and soul in His resurrection and glorification.
The Byzantine Emperor Mauritius (582-602) established the celebration of the Dormition of the Blessed Virgin Mary on August 15 for the Eastern Church. (Some historians speculate that the celebration was already widespread before the Council of Ephesus in 431). By the end of the 6th century, the West likewise celebrated the Feast of the Assumption. While the Church first emphasized the death of Mary, gradual shifts in both title and content occurred so that by the end of the 8th century, the Gregorian Sacramentary had prayers for Assumption Day. ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc3c.htm
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, also quoting the Byzantine Liturgy, states, “The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: ‘In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition (falling asleep) you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death’” (No. 966).
The belief in the Assumption of our Blessed Mother has been longstanding in our Church. We must remember that the early Church was preoccupied with resolving questions about Christ, particularly His incarnation and the hypostatic union (His divine and human natures). However, in addressing these questions, the Church gradually defined the titles of Mary as Mother of God and as New Eve, and the belief of the Immaculate Conception, all of which form the basis for the Assumption.
In Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII cited various Church Fathers to trace the longstanding tradition of the belief of the Assumption–St. John Damascene, St. Andrew of Crete, St. Modestus of Jerusalem and St. Gregory of Tours, to name a few. Bishop Theoteknos of Livias (c. 550- 650) delivered one of the most comprehensive early sermons concerning the Assumption: “For Christ took His immaculate flesh from the immaculate flesh of Mary, and if He had prepared a place in heaven for the Apostles, how much more for His mother; if Enoch had been translated and Elijah had gone to heaven, how much more Mary, who like the moon in the midst of the stars shines forth and excels among the prophets and Apostles? For even though her God-bearing body tasted death, it did not undergo corruption, but was preserved incorrupt and undefiled and taken up into heaven with its pure and spotless soul.”
St. John Damascene (d. 749) also recorded an interesting story concerning the Assumption: “St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.” In all, the Patristic Fathers defended the Assumption on two counts: Since Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin, she could not suffer bodily deterioration, the result of Original Sin, after her death. Also, if Mary bore Christ and played an intimate role as His mother in the redemption of man, then she must likewise share body and soul in His resurrection and glorification.
The Byzantine Emperor Mauritius (582-602) established the celebration of the Dormition of the Blessed Virgin Mary on August 15 for the Eastern Church. (Some historians speculate that the celebration was already widespread before the Council of Ephesus in 431). By the end of the 6th century, the West likewise celebrated the Feast of the Assumption. While the Church first emphasized the death of Mary, gradual shifts in both title and content occurred so that by the end of the 8th century, the Gregorian Sacramentary had prayers for Assumption Day. ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc3c.htm
A
Ad_Orientem
Guest
The faith is not just a collection of dogmas. Even that which is common tradition but not part of Magisterial teaching should not be dismissed without a just reason, lest we place our own wisdom above that of the collective wisdom of the Church. Munificentissimus Deus is an Apostolic Constitution, and as noted above, it clearly has in mind that our Lady dies and is resurrected.NONE of this is Dogma. The Church only says, “When the course of Her earthly life was over, She ascended into Heaven, Body and Soul.” One of God’s GREAT Mysteries. Jesus died carrying OUR sins, Mary NEVER sinned. Death is a result of SIN!!! God Bless, Memaw
As to death being a penalty for original sin, that is quite true; but even our Lord took on certain physical sufferings and death, which he did not deserve. Even if Our Lady had the preternatural gift of immortality (which, by definition, would have been added to her nature, not something intrinsic to it), she could still have died from other causes besides nature or force. Blessed Imelda, for example, is said to have died after her First Communion in a rapture of love.
M
Memaw
Guest
We have been thru this before on other forums. The Church has NEVER officially taught that Mary died. We do NOT even know when she was Assumed into Heaven. Sooo much Divine Mystery surrounding Our Lady, I will wait till I get to Heaven to know.for sure. You stated, " Since Mary was free of Original Sin and its effects (one of which is corruption of the body at death), " you forgot to mention that the main effect of Original Sin is DEATH. Mary had NO Original Sin, so why death??? God Bless, MemawFor these reasons we believe that the promises our Lord has given to each of us of sharing eternal life, including a resurrection of the body, were fulfilled in Mary. Since Mary was free of Original Sin and its effects (one of which is corruption of the body at death), since she shared intimately in the life of the Lord and in His passion, death and resurrection, and since she was present at Pentecost, this model disciple appropriately shared in the bodily resurrection and glorification of the Lord at the end of her life. (Note that the solemn definition does not specify whether Mary physically died before being assumed or just was assumed; it simply states, “Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life…”)
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, also quoting the Byzantine Liturgy, states, “The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: ‘In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition (falling asleep) you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death’” (No. 966).
The belief in the Assumption of our Blessed Mother has been longstanding in our Church. We must remember that the early Church was preoccupied with resolving questions about Christ, particularly His incarnation and the hypostatic union (His divine and human natures). However, in addressing these questions, the Church gradually defined the titles of Mary as Mother of God and as New Eve, and the belief of the Immaculate Conception, all of which form the basis for the Assumption.
In Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII cited various Church Fathers to trace the longstanding tradition of the belief of the Assumption–St. John Damascene, St. Andrew of Crete, St. Modestus of Jerusalem and St. Gregory of Tours, to name a few. Bishop Theoteknos of Livias (c. 550- 650) delivered one of the most comprehensive early sermons concerning the Assumption: “For Christ took His immaculate flesh from the immaculate flesh of Mary, and if He had prepared a place in heaven for the Apostles, how much more for His mother; if Enoch had been translated and Elijah had gone to heaven, how much more Mary, who like the moon in the midst of the stars shines forth and excels among the prophets and Apostles? For even though her God-bearing body tasted death, it did not undergo corruption, but was preserved incorrupt and undefiled and taken up into heaven with its pure and spotless soul.”
St. John Damascene (d. 749) also recorded an interesting story concerning the Assumption: “St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.” In all, the Patristic Fathers defended the Assumption on two counts: Since Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin, she could not suffer bodily deterioration, the result of Original Sin, after her death. Also, if Mary bore Christ and played an intimate role as His mother in the redemption of man, then she must likewise share body and soul in His resurrection and glorification.
The Byzantine Emperor Mauritius (582-602) established the celebration of the Dormition of the Blessed Virgin Mary on August 15 for the Eastern Church. (Some historians speculate that the celebration was already widespread before the Council of Ephesus in 431). By the end of the 6th century, the West likewise celebrated the Feast of the Assumption. While the Church first emphasized the death of Mary, gradual shifts in both title and content occurred so that by the end of the 8th century, the Gregorian Sacramentary had prayers for Assumption Day. ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc3c.htm
M
Memaw
Guest
I am NOT placing my own wisdom above the “collective” wisdom of the Church. I have stated that the Church does NOT teach that Mary died, even if many think so. The Church does NOT know for sure if or when. Our Lord became one of us to TAKE ON suffering and death for OUR sins, That is entirely different and that was not Mary’s job. Your saying, “even if” and “could have” which shows your not sure!!! I love God’s Great Mysteries, Gives us something wonderful to look forward to in Heaven. God Bless, MemawThe faith is not just a collection of dogmas. Even that which is common tradition but not part of Magisterial teaching should not be dismissed without a just reason, lest we place our own wisdom above that of the collective wisdom of the Church. Munificentissimus Deus is an Apostolic Constitution, and as noted above, it clearly has in mind that our Lady dies and is resurrected.
As to death being a penalty for original sin, that is quite true; but even our Lord took on certain physical sufferings and death, which he did not deserve. Even if Our Lady had the preternatural gift of immortality (which, by definition, would have been added to her nature, not something intrinsic to it), she could still have died from other causes besides nature or force. Blessed Imelda, for example, is said to have died after her First Communion in a rapture of love.
M
Memaw
Guest
Dormation or “falling asleep” Does not necessarily mean death. Enoch was taken to Heaven without dying, would Our Lady receive anything less??? God Bless, Memaw
M
Memaw
Guest
That was my reply!! God Bless, Memaw
M
Memaw
Guest
That is exactly why I said we do NOT know for sure and the Church doesn’t insist we believe She died. What part of “I TRUST” in God’s Great Mysteries, do you not understand!!! God Bless, Memaw
M
Memaw
Guest
What personal remarks??? I have stated several time that I trust God and love His Mysteries, but you don’t seem to accept that as a valid response. God Bless, Memaw
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PopePiusXIISupp
Guest
I am not Orthodox. I am Catholic. I cited the sources I used for the quotes after each post on here. I was providing the teaching of what the Byzantine rite holds since they are the closest to the Orthodox. I know that both have the Dormition as a feast and so I am using Catholic saints to make an argument for it.
M
Memaw
Guest
So just what does she “fell asleep” mean to you?? God Bless, Memaw
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