Was Mary given a break?

[Sugar_Ray]

A couple of students in my 8th Grade Religous Ed class were suggesting that Mary received an unfair advantage when she was conceived without sin.

They had the idea that her cooperating with God’s plan was a forgone conclusion. “God made her do it - it was his plan”

I tired to explain it this way. God knew what Mary would do. He knew how she would respond to His plan and so she was chosen and given special graces to protect her from sin through life. But God knowing in advance what would happen is not the same as God making it happen.

I’ve had similar conversations with them about Pilate in anser to the idea that Pilate had no choice because it was God’s plan. Again I explained that God knew how Pilate would respond but Pilate still made his own decision.

Just as Mary did.

I just wanted to make certain I’m explaining this correctly and see if there were any suggestions on how to make it more clear to young Catholics.

Thanks in advance

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Adam and Eve were also made without sin. But they chose sin. Mary was not given an unfair advantage, rather, we are born with a disadvantage due to the choice of Adam and Eve.

 

[TOME]

Sugar Ray,
I think your students’ remarks reflect a non-uncommon belief and if we look at the gospels superficially or worse get our theology from the movies, television or a popular magizine this attitude can be understandable.

But if we seriously look at the Immaculate Conception - Mary being conceived with out Original Sin or the effects of original sin then we and your students may see things in different light.

The first thing Mary being with out the effects of original sin human in the fullest sense of the word. She wasn’t affected by that inward directiveness that was the effect of our first parents refusal to accept God as God and to totally trust in Him. Mary’s being conceived without sin was totally open to God’s will but this never meant she was without free will, just the opposite she was totally free to say “Yes” and could respond by saying yes without her first question being “What in this for me?”.

Be we, unlike Mary, we already know the end of the story - she didn’t. She had to live out her “Yes” every day and if the NT is true in what it writes about her yes she didn’t always have it easy.
Consider Simeon’s prediction (LK 2:33-35). Also consider that she had to go through the hardest thing a mother has to go through namely giving up her child. We see this sacrifice the first time in the episode of the “Finding in the Temple” (Lk 2: 41 - 52) and Jesus’ response to her.

Then throughout all of Jesus’ public ministry this was a constant cross she had to bare - she had to let go. At the “Wedding Feast” at Cana Jesus’ first reaction to her was not a “Yes” but a reminder to her of what he was truly about. Again in the gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke we find again Jesus’ reminding her that the true relationship to Him was not the relationship of “Blood and Flesh” but in doing the “Father’s Will”.

We know from her “Yes” at the Announciation (Lk 1:26 - 38) and the “Canticle of Mary” (Lk 1: 46 - 55) this was how she lived but still just from a human perspective it couldn’t be easy especially, as the gospels relate, her son’s rejection by the religious leaders of the Jewish people and even by most of his own followers after his pronouncement on the Eucharist found in the gospel of John chapter 6.

If Mary, as we believe, was without sin therefore there was no selfish inner direction in her, then imagine the pain she had to feel of the ultimate rejection of her son at the crucifixion!

So I would remind your students, again, what we read in the gospels happened and we know the ending but our Blessed Mother had to live these events and live through them in total trust in God. Ask your students how many of them would be willing to live a life that way as she did? (And you may even ask yourself and them - as I ask myself constantly - why don’t we live our lives as she did especially since as they contend Mary knew the outcome before hand and we know the outcome having read “The Book”?)

 

[jcrichton]

…Mary received an unfair advantage when she was conceived without sin.

***Hi, Sugar Ray!

I suggest you start by reminding them of Who Jesus is… ask them to reflect on what Holiness means… bring them to Mt. Sinai where Yahweh commanded Moses to remove his sandals because the ground was Holy… workout what made that ground Holy vs. the rest of the ground around it… bring them back to Jesus’ birth… Should God, the Word Incarnate, be deposited in a Holy womb or just any indiscriminate womb?

You may also make reference to the various special births in the Holy Scriptures where baren and old wombs would be rejuvinated and made fertile by the Holy Spirit; note that each of these births were to bring about the promise made to Abraham and also note the difference between human procreation and Jesus’ Incarnation.

---

They had the idea that her cooperating with God’s plan was a forgone conclusion. “God made her do it - it was his plan”

Remind them of creation… we are created in God’s image and likeness. Mary had a choice. Had it not been so the visit from the angel would not have been necessary! She would have conceive Jesus and carried Him to term in complete ignorance of what was happening. But it was only after she acquiesced that the Holy Spirit came upon her and Jesus’ conception took place.

I’ve had similar conversations with them about Pilate in anser to the idea that Pilate had no choice because it was God’s plan. Again I explained that God knew how Pilate would respond but Pilate still made his own decision.

---

I think that you are thinking of Judas… Pilate always had a choice! In his rudimentary understanding of who Jesus was he was careful not to deliverate against Him. Since he was accustomed to dealing with people, he knew from the start that something was not right and he saught several venues to release Jesus. Yet, once his political position came under threat ("…we have no king but Caesar…) he, perhaps regretfully, proceeded to appease the Jews.

Maran atha!

Angel***

 

[dacoobob]

I see two possible issues here: 1)Mary’s immaculate conception as an “unfair” advantage, and 2)God’s “foreknowledge” of people’s choices abrogating free will.

With regard to #1, pretend you are being swept along by a flooded river, and you can’t swim. If someone standing of the shore reaches in to grab your arm and help pull you to safety, will you complain that they have an unfair advantage, since they are safely on the shore while you are flailing in the water, and refuse their help unless they get into the water with you?

As for #2, we must remember that God does not perceive time as we do. God is not subject to time; he created time and is outside of it. He is not limited to perceiving only one moment (the “present”) while looking back on some moments as the “past” and looking ahead to other moments as the “future”. Instead, every moment is eternally present to God in just the same way as “the present” is present to us humans. Therefore it’s technically incorrect to speak of God “foreseeing” something; He “sees” all moments equally. If God sees you do something right now, His seeing it doesn’t affect your free will. Well, he “sees” you doing whatever you’re going to do tomorrow in exactly the same way, from all eternity, and that doesn’t affect your free will either.

(By the way, both of these arguments are shamelessly ripped off of CS Lewis, especially his Mere Christianity, which I just finished re-reading last week. )

 

[Alexius]

No, it was not unfair. The only difference is that she was filled with grace from conception and kept pure. She still suffered the corruption as a mortal, but not the pain in childbirth and not the lack of grace. She still died, just like Christ, but her body was taken to heaven three days later just as her son.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[grandfather]

A couple of students in my 8th Grade Religous Ed class were suggesting that Mary received an unfair advantage when she was conceived without sin.

They had the idea that her cooperating with God’s plan was a forgone conclusion. “God made her do it - it was his plan”

Mary’s Immaculate Conception gives us an advantage. Adam and Eve did not have original sin and they led mankind into sin and death. The second Adam and Eve, Jesus and Mary who lead mankind to salvation also had no sin, so they could help us escape sin and lead us to eternal life. If she had said no to the angel and did not give birth to Jesus, this would not have been sinful. She did not need to say yes in order to be saved. She did not need mercy. Any advantage or power she had and has is used to our benefit, not hers.

It is a very good sign that your students are thinking like this. They are examining the truths of the faith carefully. It must be challenging to guide them.