Was Mary Really Sinless (Luke 1:47)

[Holly3278]

(Luk 1:47 DRB) And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

As you can see, in Luke 1:47, Mary refers to her Savior. If she was sinless then why would she need a savior?

 

[Lazerlike42]

(Luk 1:47 DRB) And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

As you can see, in Luke 1:47, Mary refers to her Savior. If she was sinless then why would she need a savior?

Her Immaculate Conception and fullness of grace was not of her own merit or of anything of her own. Even her own Immaculate Conception was possible only through the work of Christ on the cross. It was His sacrifice which earned the Grace which was given to Mary. Without Him she would have been just as much a sinner as I.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

From this CA Answers tract:

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

Scott

 

[Holly3278]

Ah okay thanks guys! But how did she receive Christ’s salvation before Christ was even born?

 

[Axion]

Holly3278:

Ah okay thanks guys! But how did she receive Christ’s salvation before Christ was even born?

God is not bound by time. Jesus’s sacrifice can be applied retrospectively.

And note that Mary says:

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

She doesn’t say God who will be my saviour. Before the birth of Jesus, she is talking about being saved in the present tense.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Holly3278:

Ah okay thanks guys! But how did she receive Christ’s salvation before Christ was even born?

Jesus is the only person who ever created His own mother (John 1:1-3) If you had the opportunity to do the same, would you create yours tainted with sin and destined for enternal death?

Adam & Eve & Jesus were all immaculately “conceived” without original sin.

Romans 3:23 “All [Greek: pas] have sinned…” Does this apply to Mary? No. Consider these passages were “all” [Greek: pas] does not mean “each and every single person without exception”: Matt 3:5-6; Rom 15:14; 1 Cor 15:22/Gen 5:24/2 Kings 2:11.

Mary needed redemption but this was done by applying the merits of Jesus’ death & resurrection in advance to prepare a spotless vessel in which God would dwell (cf. Isaiah 52:11; Exod 25:11)

Also consider these passages: Gen 3:15; Luke 1:28; Luke 1:42; Luke 1:48; Rev 11:19 - 12:1-5, 14; 1 Tim 3:15.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Holly3278:

Ah okay thanks guys! But how did she receive Christ’s salvation before Christ was even born?

There are two ways from saving someone who has fallen into a pit.

1. You can pull them out of the pit.
2. You can grab their arm just as they are about to fall in and prevent them from falling in.

Both scenarios involve saving the person from falling into the pit.
We all fall under scenario #1. The BVM falls under scenario #2.

The pit is sin, and Jesus is the savior who saves us from the pit.

So we say that Mary was saved in an anticipatory way.
Still needs a savior either way. She just didn’t get the bumps and bruises that often occur when one falls into a pit, so she remained untainted.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Also note that people like Moses and Abraham were saved by faith in Christ even though they never heard the name Jesus. Since Christ is God, their faith in God was equivalent to faith in Christ. Christ’s sacrifice applied to them because God is outside of time.

Each day at Mass we see an example of this. What essentially happens is that very sacrifice of Christ at Calvary “happens.” It doesn’t happen again, since it only happens once. Since God is outside of time, however, it… it just happens, the same one, just happening now, but not again. Can somebody explain this better lol?

 

[On_my_way]

Mary was saved by the merits of Christ, just as we are. There is a difference though between Mary and the rest of Christianity. The difference is that her salvation from sin was more perfect than any elses. When we are baptised, we are cleansed of original sin, while Mary was preserved from original sin at her conception. In either cases Jesus is still Savior.

I hope this does not you, cause it me in our RCIA class until I started doing more studying.

 

[shannin]

Mary was conceived without sin and I’m sure she never committed a mortal sin while she lived. After all, she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus.

Shannin

 

[E.E.N.S]

shannin:

Mary was conceived without sin and I’m sure she never committed a mortal sin while she lived. After all, she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus.

Shannin

Nor did she ever commit any venial sin, as her will was most perfectly conformed to the will of God and God wills all except for sin.

 

[Holly3278]

Thanks everyone! I’m still a bit confused though if anyone wants offer further explanation.

 

[blackfish152]

I stumbled across this argument against Mary just today, that in luke 2:21-24, she offers doves according to the Law, and in leviticus 12:6-8 it says that this is a “sin offering” for “atonement”

But as protestants will say it is marys sin offering.

1. why did mary make a sin offering if she was sinless?

was it too avoid the sin of not fulfilling the letter of the law of moses? Because if she didnt make a sin offering, then she really would have comitted a sin.

Not sure that will convince anyone though.

Does anyone have a good answer to this question.

God bless.

m

 

[adstrinity]

blackfish152:

I stumbled across this argument against Mary just today, that in luke 2:21-24, she offers doves according to the Law, and in leviticus 12:6-8 it says that this is a “sin offering” for “atonement”

But as protestants will say it is marys sin offering.

1. why did mary make a sin offering if she was sinless?

was it too avoid the sin of not fulfilling the letter of the law of moses? Because if she didnt make a sin offering, then she really would have comitted a sin.

Not sure that will convince anyone though.

Does anyone have a good answer to this question.

God bless.

m

As I understand, that is exactly it. I mean, Jesus, to have been a good Jew, had to atone for His sins once a year, under Mosaic Law. Would Jesus have any sins for which to atone? But, still, he did it.

 

[Lazerlike42]

blackfish152:

I stumbled across this argument against Mary just today, that in luke 2:21-24, she offers doves according to the Law, and in leviticus 12:6-8 it says that this is a “sin offering” for “atonement”

But as protestants will say it is marys sin offering.

1. why did mary make a sin offering if she was sinless?

was it too avoid the sin of not fulfilling the letter of the law of moses? Because if she didnt make a sin offering, then she really would have comitted a sin.

Not sure that will convince anyone though.

Does anyone have a good answer to this question.

God bless.

m

This is a toughy.

Note that this offering was also prescribed in Leviticus 15 for menstruation. Menstruation cannot be a sin, since God made women to do that. What does it mean?

Well, in the Levitical law, there is a distinction between regular sinful uncleaness and ceremonial uncleaness. It is ceremonical uncleaness that Mary was under.

I’m no expert, but this is a start.

 

[blackfish152]

I never thought of christ having atoned his sins every year. But I suppose he would have participated as a Jew. but I dont suppose there is any incident of this in the bible. Not that the bible contains all the life of Christ documented in detail, but it would be interesting to see.

 

[Church_Militant]

Holly3278:

Ah okay thanks guys! But how did she receive Christ’s salvation before Christ was even born?

Apocalypse 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world. (emphasis mine)

There are a lot of other verses that show the timelessness of the sacrifice of Christ and how it is applied even before teh world began.

See this thread
Pax tecum

 

[blackfish152]

This is interesting and relevant, when teaching his disciples to pray, after they requested his help, (Lk11-1), Christ tells them,

when you pray say… Our father…

He did not pray it as his prayer, but told them to say it. Thus he basically did not ask God to “forgive him his trespasses” coz he had none.

Wonder if he had some genious way of avoiding acknowledging guilt of sin in the atonement sacrifice you talked of ? i am willing to bet he did.

On furthur reflection for another 5 minutes from my last post, I think that Even as a good jew, who"came to fulfil the law and not remove it" Christ would not be breaking the levitical law, by not making a sin offering, for the simple reason he had not sin.

thus this suggests if Our Blessed Mother, had no sin, she would not be commiting a sin by omitting the sin offering of doves at the presentation in the temple.

this is tough to work out.

God bless.

m

 

[adstrinity]

blackfish152:

This is interesting and relevant, when teaching his disciples to pray, after they requested his help, (Lk11-1), Christ tells them,

when you pray say… Our father…

He did not pray it as his prayer, but told them to say it. Thus he basically did not ask God to “forgive him his trespasses” coz he had none.

Wonder if he had some genious way of avoiding acknowledging guilt of sin in the atonement sacrifice you talked of ? i am willing to bet he did.

On furthur reflection for another 5 minutes from my last post, I think that Even as a good jew, who"came to fulfil the law and not remove it" Christ would not be breaking the levitical law, by not making a sin offering, for the simple reason he had not sin.

thus this suggests if Our Blessed Mother, had no sin, she would not be commiting a sin by omitting the sin offering of doves at the presentation in the temple.

this is tough to work out.

God bless.

m

Hmmmmm…I’ll try to look this up for you, but, I’m going to leave soon for a little bit. Maybe you should try the “Ask the Apologist” folder, BUT, I’m pretty sure this has not gone unaswered by the Church in the past 2000 years.

 

[adstrinity]

nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/luke/luke2.htm (See footnotes)

A-HA!!!:

Q: At the Presentation, why did Mary make a sin offering (Luke2:24, Lev. 12:8) if she was without sin?

A: For the same reason Jesus was baptized by John, though he had no sins to repent of. Mary fulfilled the Law.

According to Leviticus 12:2-8, a mother was purified forty days after the birth of a son, and she was required to offer a lamb as a burnt offering and a young pigeon or turtledove as a sin offering. A poor woman could substitute another pigeon or turtledove for the lamb, thus offering two of them.

The purification had to do with ritual uncleanliness and didn’t imply a moral fault in childbirth. As Jesus would later, Mary fulfilled all the precepts of the Law, which, clearly, wasn’t written to make allowances for a sinless man (the Messiah) or his sinless mother.
catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9005qq.asp