Was Mary Sinless? Fav Arguments

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Why did Jesus refer to Mary as “Woman?”
“Most blessed of women be Jael,
the wife of Heber the Kenite,
of tent-dwelling women most blessed.
He asked water and she gave him milk
,
she brought him curds in a lordly bowl.
She put her hand to the tent peg
and her right hand to the workmen’s mallet;
she struck Sisera a blow,
she crushed his head,
she shattered and pierced his temple.”
He sank, he fell,
he lay still at her** feet;
at her feet he sank, he fell;
where he sank, there he fell dead.
Judges 5, 24-27 (cf. Judith 13: 18-20)

The doctrine of Mary as the new Eve, the spiritual mother of all the living, was universally accepted among the faithful in the 2nd century as part of the Apostolic Tradition of the Church. It was not just a private theological opinion held by a few. The idea must have germinated from what Paul taught about Jesus being the second Adam and the author of life in the spiritual sense opposed to the author of the fall from grace (Rom 5:12; 1 Cor 15: 20-23; 45). The ECFs placed the apostle’s words into the context of the story of Adam and Eve’s fall in Genesis – the promise of redemption and the victory over Satan and his humiliating defeat - as well as Luke’s account of the annunciation. The early Church Fathers saw a connection between the forbidden fruit which Eve presented to Adam and the fruit of Mary’s womb (cf. Lk 1:42). Eve was Adam’s helpmate (cf. Gen 2:18), but she failed him tragically which resulted in the fall of the human race. Mary collaborated with God by receiving his word; as our mother, she presents to the human race the fruit which alone can regenerate the human race to new life in the spirit through the dispensation of divine grace, obtained for us by the obedience of the new Adam.

Mary was associated with the redemptive work of her Son inasmuch as Eve was associated with the fall of Adam. In this sense, she has been designated as our co-Redemptrix. Through Eve Adam forfeited the original state of holiness and justice; through the new Eve the new Adam has gained for us our restoration to this state by the sanctifying grace he has merited for us. Both Adam and Eve were unfaithful in their covenant with God. Jesus and Mary were faithful born under the law of the Sinai covenant. Hence, neither the fall nor the recapitulation could have occurred without both pairs being closely involved. If Adam hadn’t listened to Eve, Jesus wouldn’t have had to redeem us by his death on the cross.

Mary’s role in the Divine order of redemption was not merely a physical one. The eternal Word could have become man in the same way Adam was formed – out of clay (cf. Gen 2:7). Her association with her Son was moral and required her salutary and meritorious act of faith. Eve contributed morally to the fall by succumbing to the devil’s temptation to exalt herself above God which ultimately led to Adam’s sin and its universal consequences. Mary, on the contrary, cooperated morally in mankind’s redemption by her faith in the angel’s words despite her understanding of Isaiah that God’s just servant would have to suffer and she too interiorly as his mother. Hence, Mary is our spiritual mother, and more significantly the Mother of the Church, through adoption because by her faith and union with her divine Son she has channeled to us the supernatural life of grace. She has begotten us in Christ Jesus by the gospel message which she accepted in her heart (cf. 1 Cor 4:15).

While he was saying this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!” But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it!”
Luke 11, 27-28


The woman in the crowd thought that Mary was blessed merely for having borne Jesus physically. However, she assumed that Jesus was a prophet and a teacher, nothing more. She had no idea that he was God incarnate. And because of her ignorance about this divine truth, Jesus implicitly corrected the woman. If only she knew what was really meant to declare: that being the mother of our Lord, Mary was truly blessed on account of her obedient act of faith informed by charity. The Greek word for “rather” is menounge which means “more” or “further”. So what Jesus told the woman was that his mother was more blessed for having conceived and borne him through her faithful act of obedience than for simply being his natural mother. On this occasion the woman was referring to Mary, so Jesus was alluding to the Annunciation with regard to his mother. He wasn’t referring to true believers in general. Elizabeth had Mary’s encounter with the angel Gabriel in mind when she exclaimed, “Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled” (Lk 1:45). Hence, the woman in the crowd could not have imagined that Mary’s divine motherhood involved a supernatural and meritorious consent to the divine mystery of the Incarnation and the formal redemption of the human race. She merely proclaimed Mary blessed for being the natural mother of so great a prophet. Indeed, Mary was blessed above all women for having been chosen to bear the divine Word in the flesh, but her true blessedness consisted of her act of faith working through love. She heard the word of God and kept it as she pronounced her fiat. In this way Mary smote the head of the serpent.

To be continued.
 
Why did Jesus refer to Mary as “Woman?”
*For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman; but all things come from God. *
1 Corinthians 11, 12

The idea of being born of a woman without the seed of man points towards mankind’s spiritual regeneration and reconciliation with God. Eve is the biological “mother of the living" in a fallen state. (Genesis 3:21); Mary, the new Eve, is the Mother of all redeemed humanity. Mary is the true spiritual “mother of the living”, of all who possess eternal life in Christ, her Son. Since Mary is the Mother of Jesus, we are his brothers and sisters, and so Mary is our mother as well, being the fulfillment of the free Woman of Promise in her person. We do not physically descend from her as Jesus did in his humanity, but she gave to us her Son’s sacred body of which we have become members (Ephesians 5:29). As members of Christ’s mystical body, the Church, we are all united to the fruit of Mary’s womb as brethren of the Lord. Mary is indeed the mother of the new order of creation. As the personified type of Daughter Zion and mother of her children and the prototype of the New Jerusalem come down from heaven, which is the Church, Mary is the spiritual mother of us all in the New Dispensation. Not unlike Jesus, who is as Paul tells the Romans in his letter, “the firstborn of many brothers”, we are born without the seed of man by being “generated unto God” as members of Christ’s body.

Finally, everything that happened and was spoken on Golgotha was a fulfillment of OT prophecies. Jesus wasn’t only concerned about his mother’s welfare when he spoke to her and his disciple, but he used the moment to express something of universal importance in the Divine plan of redemption. The salvation of the human race was at the forefront of his mind as he hung from the cross - not personal familial concerns. Jesus could have made private arrangements with John before he was arrested, but he intentionally waited for the proper moment to take care of the matter in the twofold way that he did and which the disciple himself acknowledged and allegorically presented as a testimony to a Marian tradition of the nascent church.

It does seem rather odd that when Jesus showed such great unselfish concern for his mother’s welfare, despite his own physical agony, he refrained from affectionately and more personally calling her Em as was the custom of the Jews. I’m afraid Jesus never addressed his mother in the less personal and familial way by calling her “Lady” or “Madam”, for the same reason as he did the woman who was almost stoned to death for having committed adultery (cf. Jn. 8:10). The appellation “Woman” for Mary had a more significant meaning attached to it for which there is a theological explanation as we have seen.

The crucifixion scene, therefore, is allegorically presented by John in literary fashion. His gospel has more of a mystical flavour to it than the Synoptic gospels have. John’s depiction of the crucifixion on Calvary resembles the scene in the Garden of Eden. There is a tree in the form of the cross (Gal 3:13) on which hangs the fruit of our Blessed Mother’s womb (cf. Lk 1:42): the delightful land through whom all nations will be blessed (cf. Mal. 3:12: in reference to Mother Zion); there is a man, Jesus the new Adam and a woman, Mary the new Eve. The woman Jesus identifies his mother with is the one prophetically alluded to in the Protoevangelium and foreshaowed in the OT – Mother Zion in classical Jewish theology - acknowledging he himself as her offspring who is at enmity with the devil’s offspring in association with her who is at enmity with Satan.

Genesis 3:15 is the first verse that reveals to us how Mary would become the New Eve. The woman alluded to as being at enmity or hostility with the serpent is Mary. It was God who put this total opposition between Mary and Satan, and we believe it to be in the same likeness as Christ’s hostility with the seed of the serpent: sinful humanity. For Mary to be like Christ in His hostility with Satan and his offspring, it is reasonable to say that this passage implies Mary’s lack of sin and affinity with the devil. There is no surer way to be in total hostility with Satan than to be in God’s constant grace. It was by the His grace, that God put Mary and Satan in a complete state of opposition and had the woman and the serpent become genuine enemies with hatred for each other, which the Hebrew word for enmity (eybah ) denotes. Mary would be a friend of Satan and no longer Eve’s anti-type if at any moment she had sinned and consequently be an unworthy mother of our Lord. Eve was at enmity with God at the time she mortally sinned against Him and did what was hateful in His sight.

A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars … Then the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, so that he might devour her child as soon as it was born. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron… But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne … Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 12, 1-17

PAX

:heaven:
 
Ah…!!!

Actually you did show me something I did not even consider before.

There is kind of a parallel between Eve and the mother of our Lord.

But there seems to be something that is not being held on your side.

The human nature of both.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

If you’re born after the fall of man, you can’t be naturally sinless.
 
Ah…!!!

Actually you did show me something I did not even consider before.

There is kind of a parallel between Eve and the mother of our Lord.

But there seems to be something that is not being held on your side.

The human nature of both.
There seems to something missed on your side also. This was a “Supernatural” birth of God? How did that occur had Mary been a sinner?
 
The Mother of the Lord, which scripture is silent on her being a sinner?

BTW, I have never heard the Pentecostal story of the Incarnation of the Word of God? Do you have a doctrine or some oath about this? Just saying, I don’t understand how you arrive at what scripture did not say? 🙂

Peace
 
I am continually amazed by the fact that the people who call themselves sola scripturists really do not know the scriptures. But, it stands to reason then, that if they did know the scriptures they would not be sola scripturists.
 
Ah…!!!

Actually you did show me something I did not even consider before.

There is kind of a parallel between Eve and the mother of our Lord.

But there seems to be something that is not being held on your side.

The human nature of both.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

If you’re born after the fall of man, you can’t be naturally sinless.
You’ve almost answered your own objection: Mary was supernaturally graced to be born without Original Sin. It was by God’s grace that Mary was born free of any stain of O.S. by the foreseen merits of her Son
 
The Mother of the Lord, which scripture is silent on her being a sinner?

BTW, I have never heard the Pentecostal story of the Incarnation of the Word of God? Do you have a doctrine or some oath about this? Just saying, I don’t understand how you arrive at what scripture did not say? 🙂

Peace
…are you serious?

God is.

God was.

and forever shall God be.

…

No incarnation needed.
 
…When you mentioned the incarnation of the word of God, were you talking specifically about the bible itself?

Or were you speaking of the God of Israel?
 
There seems to something missed on your side also. This was a “Supernatural” birth of God? How did that occur had Mary been a sinner?
Are you talking about the birth of Mary, or the birth of the Christ child?

We have no such doctrine around the birth of Mary, but some churches seem to have one.

Was the birth of Elijah a supernatural one?

How about the birth of Isaiah?
 
Ah…!!!

Actually you did show me something I did not even consider before.

There is kind of a parallel between Eve and the mother of our Lord.

But there seems to be something that is not being held on your side.

The human nature of both.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

If you’re born after the fall of man, you can’t be naturally sinless.
Mary was subject to inherit the stain of original sin, but God intervened by preserving her free from it with His grace because she was predestined to be the mother of our Lord. This means that Mary was also untouched by the consequences of original sin: concupiscence of the flesh, concupiscence of the eyes, and the pride of life. However, not unlike her divine Son, Mary suffered and died despite being sinless for the purpose of making temporal satisfaction to God for the sins of mankind. God willed a perfect mother for His Only-Begotten Son, so He redeemed Mary in the most perfect way. By doing so, God separated Mary from the rest of sinful humanity with all its profanity and idols, just as He separated His bride Israel -Daughter Zion - from the surrounding pagan nations to be His own; for God is all-holy. Mary’s body served as God’s holy temple. Her womb served as the personal sanctuary and dwelling place of the Light of the world, God Incarnate, full of grace and truth, having no affinity with darkness whatsoever (cf. 2 Cor. 6:14-18). You may object to this Church teaching of Mary’s immaculate conception and her freedom from acquiring a sinful nature, but remember Enoch and Elijah were subject to die as descendants of Adam. Yet they did not experience physical death by Divine intervention. Sin and death are not necessities which can constrain God. If they were, then God couldn’t have sent His Son into the world to save us from the power of sin and death. As it stands, God can redeem and save us however He pleases.

You know my necessity—that I abhor the sign of my proud position, which is upon my head on days when I appear in public. I abhor it like a filthy rag, and I do not wear it on the days when I am at leisure And your handmaid has not eaten at Haman’s table, and I have not honored the king’s feast or drunk the wine of libations. Your handmaid has had no joy since the day that I was brought here until now, except in you, O Lord God of Abraham. O God, whose might is over all, hear the voice of the despairing, and save us from the hands of evildoers.
Esther 5, 14-19

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for he has looked with favor on the lowliness of his handmaid.
Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
for the Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name."
Luke 1, 46-49

PAX

:heaven:
 
youtube.com/watch?v=PUIa674GGCo

…whoever cannot call Mary blessed, needs to check themselves.

When’s the last time you compared and contrasted Mary’s devotions and praise to the Lord, to the way modern Pentecostals tend to do it?

…
 
When’s the last time you compared Mary’s devotion and praise, to the way modern Pentecostals tend to do it?

The lowly handmaid has much in common with the Protestant church.

…
 
youtube.com/watch?v=PUIa674GGCo

…whoever cannot call Mary blessed, needs to check themselves.

When’s the last time you compared and contrasted Mary’s devotions and praise to the Lord, to the way modern Pentecostals tend to do it?

…
The Catholic Mass is the NT version of the Passover seder meal. Very much different than the rock concert video that you posted. God was very specific in the OT as to how He was to be worshipped. Do you really think He would change His ways in the NT? Rock concert worship services are a man made tradition. But getting back to Mary’s Immaculate Conception the Bible passage that always come to my mind when I hear protestants claim that Mary was a sinner just like all of us is Mt 7:7-11:

7 “Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
9 Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!”

Every protestant I have ever known will say that when they pray and ask God for something they expect, based on this passage, to receive their request. They expect bread not a stone. They expect a fish not a serpent. They believe that God the Father will do this to them who are sinners. . . . BUT . . . . .to His Only Begotten Son, to Him, the Father will give a stone not bread. To Him, God the Farher would give a serpent. By doing so protestants are in fact sayng that God is a capricious God who is not logical or reasonable who acts arbitrarily without concern for what is fair or right. That is the picture of God that they paint by denying Mary’s Immaculate Conception. That is a far cry from the traditional God who is all Loving, all Merciful and all Just.
 
I expect because I am a child of God.

( He gives his children good things.)

I am not a people pleaser.
 
Was Miriam a Joni Mitchell wannabe or something?

(sister of Moses)

I should be offended…
 
I expect because I am a child of God.

( He gives his children good things.)
But the question is, does God give His only begotten Son good things. Or does He treat you, a sinner, better than Jesus? That is the question for you to answer.
 
I expect because I am a child of God.

( He gives his children good things.)

I am not a people pleaser.
One reason I was unable to accept the various forms of new doctrines taught by the multiple versions of Protestantism is the penchant to choose one verse, and ignore the rest of scripture. We are adopted children of God I agree. However we must also be aware that our Lord told us we have to take up our cross, and we have to be aware of the parable of the yoke. We have to remember that we will have to suffer trials and tribulations and have the world hate us. We won’t automatically get what we want, but when we cooperate with God’s grace will be given what we need to “run the good race” to persevere.

Protestantism under the novel teachings of Calvin, and the modern day “Prosperity Gospel” as well as others teaches that if you get good things, then you made the correct decision in the correct order, according to their dictates, and personal interpretation of the scriptures (an anti-scriptural idea in itself) and that as long as you believe in those parts of the Scripture you find compelling, the proof is in your getting what you want. Sometimes what we want is not what will conform us to what God wants for us.

The same goes for the Protestant attacks at what God did for our Lady, and the way He prefigured her position in the OT. Fulfilled it in the Incarnation of her son, our Lord. As well as (usually disregarded by most of Protestantism) How the Early Church treated her. The fact is they held her in higher regard than even most Catholics and Orthodox today, since they were closer to the Apostles and knew how significant God’s work is through her cooperation and intercession.
 
When’s the last time you compared Mary’s devotion and praise, to the way modern Pentecostals tend to do it?

The lowly handmaid has much in common with the Protestant church.

…
The lowly handmaid who had found favour with God for whom God did great things had much in common with the early Church. Christians in the 1st century regarded Mary as being the most blessed among women, including Eve, not only because she was chosen to be the mother of our Lord, but more importantly because she was blessed by being without sin. “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb” (Lk 1:42). They praised her for her merits and celebrated the many graces she had received by her collaboration with God. Mary wasn’t perceived as only humble, but as a woman whom God had exalted because of her humility. For the early Christians she was the sinless new Eve by the grace of God.

*The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, and I ate.” Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent tricked me, and I ate.”

To the woman he said,
“I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children."*
Genesis 3, 12-13, 16

*“The report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain.’” *
Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]

*“So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . ” *
Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]

PAX

:heaven:
 
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