Was Muhammed mislead or deceived?

[century153]

Anybody who knows the details, please correct me because I admit to being only peripherally familiar with Islam. But didn’t Mohammed claim to have been taken up to heaven from that spot in Jerusalem (the former location of the Jewish temple Holy of Holies and current site of the Dome of the Rock) in a manner similar to Elijah? Didn’t he explicitly claim that this was a REAL physical occurence, not a dream of vision?

If I understand this correctly, then it is simply not possible that Mohammed was a sincere and earnest, but misguided man honestly seeking God. I can see only three possible outcomes:

1. He really is who he says he is, the last and greatest prophet of God (Allah).
2. He was mentally ill and really did believe that all that happened even though it did not.
3. He was a masterful liar and opportunist seeking power, glory and prestige for himself.

#2 seems highly improbably as I have a hard time believing a mentally ill man could acheive the leadership feats he later did.

#1 cannot be reconciled with the reality of Jesus as Messiah and Son of God (rising from the dead is a pretty good trick, eh?), so #1 cannot be true.

Reluctantly, I must conclude that #3 is the most likely scenario. Which, by the way, means nothing about the sincerity of about a billion muslims in the world. I expect that they generally sincerely believe that Mo was the prophet he claimed to be. Which leaves us in the tricky spot of figuring out how to reach them. Simply stating #3 outright doesn’t seem like a very productive approach does it? (Not to mention the risk to your neck in saying so…) Probably best that we simply make it clear that we don’t agree without being “in their face” about it.

Interesting. But, as far as figuring out how to reach them goes…this is God’s work. He is already working on this as we speak. We need to pray for their conversion – that is really all we can do. We need to live our lives according to what Jesus taught us and “pray unceasingly” according to the Word.

 

[century153]

Personally i beleive Muhammad was decieved. Primarily this is due to his story of his “revelation” which involved very unangelic behavior on the part of an angel contrary to depictions of angelic appearances in the bible.

To me this implies he was decieved (even the devil can appear as an angel of light) even though there is some good in Islam. Because even though he clearly had faith in his experience the said experience doesn;t neccesarily have to be from the holiest source and considering the Qurans own account and the fruits of Islam throughout history, it seems likely that Muhammads “revelation” came from a source quite a bit less holy than muslims believe.

Could you elaborate…or at least, give me a source to refer to. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. This is my personal leaning but I do not know enough about the entire subject. I am only beginning my study.

 

[century153]

Here’s an interesting quote from Catholicos Timothy I (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_I_%28Nestorian_Patriarch%29) about Mohammed:

“Muhammad is worthy of all praise, by all reasonable people…He walked in the path of the prophets, and trod in the track of the lovers of God. All the prophets taught the doctrine of one God, and since Muhammad taught the doctrine of the unity of God, he walked, therefore, in the path of the prophets. Further, all the prophets drove men away from bad works, and brought them nearer to good works, and since Muhammad drove his people away from bad works and brought them nearer to the good ones, he walked, therefore, in the path of the prophets. Again, all the prophets separated men from idolatry and polytheism, and attached them to God and to His worship, and since Muhammad separated his people from idolatry and polytheism, and attached them to the worship and the knowledge of one God, beside whom there is no other God, it is obvious that he walked in the path of the prophets. Finally Muhammad taught about God, His Word and His Spirit, and since all the prophets had prophesied about God, His Word and His Spirit, Muhammad walked, therefore, in the path of all the prophets” (Apology of Timothy, 61).

I’m not sure I totally agree with this. Especially the part I highlighted in red. Jesus taught us that if we live by the sword we would die by the sword and healed the centurion’s ear (I think it was a centurion or a servant). So, Jesus was non-violent – wouldn’t you say? But, from what I heard, it seems Muhammed wrote in the Quaran that his followers should kill all unbelievers (Christians and Jews ie). Is this true? Or am I missing something? All comments are appreciated. :thankyou:

 

[Jehoshua]

Could you elaborate…or at least, give me a source to refer to. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. This is my personal leaning but I do not know enough about the entire subject. I am only beginning my study.

Im afraid i can’t really give you a source other than suggest you look up the story Muhammad’s first “revelation”. Effectively Muhammad was in a cave and was called by an “angel” to recite, Muhammad was afraid and was asaulted by the angel until he complied. Such a contrast to the “do not be afraid” in the bible yes. He was even “horrified” afterwards.

The overall conclusions are my opinion regarding Islam originating from the accounts of the “revelation” to Muhammad and my own conclusions considering the pre-existing scripture and judaeo-christian religious context and the “fruits” of Islam over history.

 

[century153]

Im afraid i can’t really give you a source other than suggest you look up the story Muhammad’s first “revelation”. Effectively Muhammad was in a cave and was called by an “angel” to recite, Muhammad was afraid and was asaulted by the angel until he complied. Such a contrast to the “do not be afraid” in the bible yes. He was even “horrified” afterwards.

The overall conclusions are my opinion regarding Islam originating from the accounts of the “revelation” to Muhammad and my own conclusions considering the pre-existing scripture and judaeo-christian religious context and the “fruits” of Islam over history.

Thank you.

 

[jakasaki]

Could you elaborate…or at least, give me a source to refer to. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. This is my personal leaning but I do not know enough about the entire subject. I am only beginning my study.

Quoting from the Hadith of Bukhari, 9.111:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah’s Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light.

He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship(Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira.

The angel came to him in it and asked him to read.

The Prophet replied, “I do not know how to read.” (The Prophet added), "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore.

He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, “I do not know how to read,” whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore.

He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, “I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?).” Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, “Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists). Has created man from a clot. Read and Your Lord is Most Generous…up to… …that which he knew not.” (96.15)

Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration, his neck muscles twitching with terror till he entered upon Khadija and said, “Cover me! Cover me!”

They covered him till his fear was over and then he said, “O Khadija, what is wrong with me?” Then he told her everything that had happened and said, 'I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija said, 'Never!

But have the glad tidings, for by Allah, Allah will never disgrace you as you keep good reactions with your Kith and kin, speak the truth, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guest generously and assist the deserving, calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to (her cousin) Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza bin Qusai. Waraqa was the son of her paternal uncle, i.e., her father’s brother, who during the Pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the Arabic writing and used to write of the Gospels in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write.

He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to him, “O my cousin! Listen to the story of your nephew.” Waraqa asked, “O my nephew! What have you seen?” The Prophet described whatever he had seen.

Waraqa said, “This is the same Namus (i.e., Gabriel, the Angel who keeps the secrets) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out.” Allah’s Apostle asked, “Will they turn me out?” Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said: "Never did a man come with something similar to what you have brought but was treated with hostility.

If I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, “O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah’s Apostle in truth” whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home.

And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before. (Ibn 'Abbas said regarding the meaning of: ‘He it is that Cleaves the daybreak (from the darkness)’ (6.96) that Al-Asbah. means the light of the sun during the day and the light of the moon at night).

abdurrahman.org/sunnah/sahihBukhari/087.sbt.html

 

[Bluegoat]

Anybody who knows the details, please correct me because I admit to being only peripherally familiar with Islam. But didn’t Mohammed claim to have been taken up to heaven from that spot in Jerusalem (the former location of the Jewish temple Holy of Holies and current site of the Dome of the Rock) in a manner similar to Elijah? Didn’t he explicitly claim that this was a REAL physical occurence, not a dream of vision?

If I understand this correctly, then it is simply not possible that Mohammed was a sincere and earnest, but misguided man honestly seeking God. I can see only three possible outcomes:

1. He really is who he says he is, the last and greatest prophet of God (Allah).
2. He was mentally ill and really did believe that all that happened even though it did not.
3. He was a masterful liar and opportunist seeking power, glory and prestige for himself.

As far as #2 - it is possible to have a kind of temporary insanity - perhaps due to too much sun, or bad food, or stress. That would not necessarily mean he remained mad later on.

And I think there is a #4, which is that he had a vision, but that it was a demon. Such a thing could be a result of what the Orthodox call prelest, and could be very convincing. I personally tend toward that view, but I wouldn’t bet money on any of them.

 

[Bezant]

I wonder often about how Muhammed was deceived. I say deceived because I am certain that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Aside from my own belief, we have the testimony of so many witnesses to the faith – living and those who have departed as St. Paul refers to them “a great cloud of witnesses”.

I started to do some research about my question. My original thought was that perhaps Muhammed was into some sort of idolatry when he went into that cave and thus had opened the door to deception from the evil one. Perhaps he went about seeking God through occult means. This is my conclusion so far. Then there is the other conclusion that he had issues. I just cannot understand otherwise how someone who truly sought God with his whole heart could be led so far astray.

I’ll leave it at that and ask for your thoughts on the subject. :egyptian:

I am no expert in Islam, though I have been studying it for a few years, mostly from a historical and jurisprudential POV. This is my conclusion.

It doesn’t matter if he was mislead, decieved, clueless, or decieving. His revelation is completely outside of our theological discourse, a non-entity.

Any debate or discussion with Muslims on this issue, or any other similiar issue in Islam (e.g., monotheism) should be clarified from the beginning on this premise. That’s how I feel.

The only accounts of the Prophet we have from his time are from his POV, which affirms that he was not only not decieved, but the bearer of the true revelation: the Qur’an, his Sunnah (narrations of his actions and sayings, passed down from witness to witness), letters from his Companions, the Contract of Medina, etc.

 

[century153]

Quoting from the Hadith of Bukhari, 9.111:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah’s Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light.

He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship(Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira.

The angel came to him in it and asked him to read.

The Prophet replied, “I do not know how to read.” (The Prophet added), "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore.

He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, “I do not know how to read,” whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore.

He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, “I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?).” Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, “Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists). Has created man from a clot. Read and Your Lord is Most Generous…up to… …that which he knew not.” (96.15)

Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration, his neck muscles twitching with terror till he entered upon Khadija and said, “Cover me! Cover me!”

They covered him till his fear was over and then he said, “O Khadija, what is wrong with me?” Then he told her everything that had happened and said, 'I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija said, 'Never!

But have the glad tidings, for by Allah, Allah will never disgrace you as you keep good reactions with your Kith and kin, speak the truth, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guest generously and assist the deserving, calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to (her cousin) Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza bin Qusai. Waraqa was the son of her paternal uncle, i.e., her father’s brother, who during the Pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the Arabic writing and used to write of the Gospels in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write.

He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to him, “O my cousin! Listen to the story of your nephew.” Waraqa asked, “O my nephew! What have you seen?” The Prophet described whatever he had seen.

Waraqa said, “This is the same Namus (i.e., Gabriel, the Angel who keeps the secrets) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out.” Allah’s Apostle asked, “Will they turn me out?” Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said: "Never did a man come with something similar to what you have brought but was treated with hostility.

If I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, “O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah’s Apostle in truth” whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home.

And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before. (Ibn 'Abbas said regarding the meaning of: ‘He it is that Cleaves the daybreak (from the darkness)’ (6.96) that Al-Asbah. means the light of the sun during the day and the light of the moon at night).

abdurrahman.org/sunnah/sahihBukhari/087.sbt.html

Thanks. This is a bit much to digest right now. Its late. I will re-read tomorrow. But, it seems strange for the angel to push him to read when he couldn’t – none of the other prophets ever had a problem like that. I don’t believe he is who he says he is. All he did as far as I can see was draw people away from Christ. The rest of Islam preaches good works pushing the people to do good – but that is what most religions do. What made him re-write the bible? I guess it was the same thing that made Joseph Smith re-write it. This is a formidable task I have undertaken – but it is important to me. I pray the Lord will show me what I need to know.

 

[century153]

I am no expert in Islam, though I have been studying it for a few years, mostly from a historical and jurisprudential POV. This is my conclusion.

It doesn’t matter if he was mislead, decieved, clueless, or decieving. His revelation is completely outside of our theological discourse, a non-entity.

Any debate or discussion with Muslims on this issue, or any other similiar issue in Islam (e.g., monotheism) should be clarified from the beginning on this premise. That’s how I feel.

The only accounts of the Prophet we have from his time are from his POV, which affirms that he was not only not decieved, but the bearer of the true revelation: the Qur’an, his Sunnah (narrations of his actions and sayings, passed down from witness to witness), letters from his Companions, the Contract of Medina, etc.

It can be tough having a discussion about, especially the Trinity. But, it is amazing how he has managed to affirm his own self without any witnesses at all to his revelations. Based on what he says an angel told him he has established one of the biggest religions the world has known. You know, the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds. If this isn’t a stronghold, there never was one. I pray that God reveals the Truth to all who seek Him with their whole heart. :knight2:

 

[Anrando]

Here’s an interesting quote from Catholicos Timothy I (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_I_%28Nestorian_Patriarch%29) about Mohammed:

“Muhammad is worthy of all praise, by all reasonable people…He walked in the path of the prophets, and trod in the track of the lovers of God. All the prophets taught the doctrine of one God, and since Muhammad taught the doctrine of the unity of God, he walked, therefore, in the path of the prophets. Further, all the prophets drove men away from bad works, and brought them nearer to good works, and since Muhammad drove his people away from bad works and brought them nearer to the good ones, he walked, therefore, in the path of the prophets. Again, all the prophets separated men from idolatry and polytheism, and attached them to God and to His worship, and since Muhammad separated his people from idolatry and polytheism, and attached them to the worship and the knowledge of one God, beside whom there is no other God, it is obvious that he walked in the path of the prophets. Finally Muhammad taught about God, His Word and His Spirit, and since all the prophets had prophesied about God, His Word and His Spirit, Muhammad walked, therefore, in the path of all the prophets” (Apology of Timothy, 61).

Wow, I guess old Timothy missed that part about killing the Jews where ever you find them, about raiding the unbelievers, stealing their property and giving 1/4th of the spoils to Mo, about sex with captured slaves, about the extremely carnal nature of paradise with beautiful young boys or virgin women to choose from, let alone the making the unbelievers pay the tax and accept humiliation, how to purify yourself after passing wind, how the great prophet can have as many “wives” as he wants, how marriage to children is cool, yada yada yada, yes indeed the Koran and the subsequent interpretation is indeed very saintly and obviously inspired by G-d and clearly in the same spirit as the prophets of the Old Testement…

It seems to me that Mo was the one doing the deceiving. As his favorite child bride is reported to have said to him , his god responded to his desires and needs personally, not the needs of the people as a whole. Mo created the perfect man’s world where women can never prove rape, cannot divorce, and where heaven is a giant bordello where women believers have no place. Seems he was saying exactly what HE wanted to say and set up a system VERY beneficial to himself.

Maybe I just missed the robbing, murdering, raping parts in the Bible.

W.Unland

 

[Sam_777]

I will ned to investigate this theory – I have never heard it. It sounds interesting though. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

3 out of 4 Caliphs were assassinated, if the theory is right then that might indicates political interest between them…

 

[Bezant]

It can be tough having a discussion about, especially the Trinity. But, it is amazing how he has managed to affirm his own self without any witnesses at all to his revelations. Based on what he says an angel told him he has established one of the biggest religions the world has known. You know, the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds. If this isn’t a stronghold, there never was one. I pray that God reveals the Truth to all who seek Him with their whole heart. :knight2:

I don’t think it’s that amazing when God called up several Prophets unawares and alone. We have no witnesses around for many of His encounters with Abraham, Samuel, and Moses, but we accept the validity of their accounts by faith and trust in God.

Muslims accept Muhammed’s encounters with Him also by faith, whether or not they admit it. The entire Qur’an validates itself as true revelation by using itself as evidence.

I recently had a discussion with a Muslim acquaintence on Trinity and salvation. He tried to subtly convert me, though I was more amused than anything, and he evangelised the ‘right way’; offering an opposing POV and evidence, rather than pushing it. I learned, but was I converted? No. Neither was he.

Now, looking back I think for any discussion with Muslims (not just Muslims) it’s best to lay down your established preconceptions, straight.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Keep it adult and charitable please

 

[Bezant]

But my next question is why should we care that Mohammed was misled or decieved, decieving or posessed?

 

[century153]

But my next question is why should we care that Mohammed was misled or decieved, decieving or posessed?

Everyone has their reason for discussing this issue. Mine is very personal == and I believe the gospel and what is written that Jesus says, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the father but by me. I have a tendency to find out what motivates people – it is just the way I think. It probably doesn’t really matter much whether he was misled or deceived or he just made something up – but if it is truly divine I believe something got twisted along the way. This is what I am after. The Achille’s heel so to speak. Don’t take that the wrong way – but there has to be a flaw somewhere that one can reasonably discuss with a Muslim — or maybe there just isn’t any. And, as I once said, God will convert them in His time. I just need to love them.