Was original christianity like modern evangelicalism?

[suupah]

Hello all,

I have heard many times from evangelical protestants that Catholics are not Christians. That the church had been Paganized by the Roman authorities in the 4rth century and that the result was a new pagan religion with Christian overtones but not Christianity.

I am reading a book on church history and it really seems to indicate that the early church was very catholic in at least some ways. The early or first Christian churches believed in the Eucharist, the bishoprics, apostolic succession, the authority of scripture and tradition and veneration of saints.

My question for protestants and evangelicals alike is; **How can explain the fact that history shows the early church had Catholic beliefs in aforementioned areas?

**Even if you don’t want to be a catholic, don’t you owe it to yourself to believe the way that the first christians did? OR did the church fall into heresy right after the word “go”?

 

[jay29]

The first Christians celebrated MASS. Look to the Diache and St. Justin Martyr. Many prots have to ignore history to justify their beliefs.

Hence:

One thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches … the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this. … To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.

Cardinal John Henry Newman

 

[Fred_4]

That’s only because the Catholic hierarchy rewrote all historical texts after they took control and pushed the Baptists underground by killing them all until Martin Luther exposed the lie and brought the bible back to the people and made christianity how it should be even though no baptists are today lutherans which it seems they should be if Martin Luther is such a hero of theirs but it’s curious how the Baptists were the original church and yet there’s no Baptist reformer. Things that make you go “Hmmmm…”

 

[Catholic_Dude]

My challenge to them is for them to point out three men who lived between 250AD and 1000AD whom the Protestant considers to be a GENUINE Christian. Trying to get protestants to answer that one is like pulling teeth.

 

[Cat]

My challenge to them is for them to point out three men who lived between 250AD and 1000AD whom the Protestant considers to be a GENUINE Christian. Trying to get protestants to answer that one is like pulling teeth.

Actually, a lot of Protestants quote the Early Church fathers. My husband and I are converts from evangelical Christianity, and my husband still listens to “Christian radio” (Protestant), including several shows that could only be described as “anti-Catholic.” (He believes that in order to answer our enemy, we have to understand our enemy–good plan, if you can listen to these people without your blood pressure going up!)

Anyway, the hosts of this radio show constantly quote various Church Fathers to prove their various points. BUT…they quote selectively, and totally leave out all the writings that indicate that these men practiced Catholic Christianity.

On one of the Protestant forums that we participate in, one of the most anti-Catholic posters is fond of quoting Athanasius (hope I spelled that right, don’t think I did). He uses Athanasius to prove that Catholicism is wrong.

Many evangelical Protestants seem to be practicing a very weird thing–they seem to think that Christianity started with them. I’ve heard so many teachers and preachers say that the past doesn’t matter and that we need to forget all the past and start NOW, with who we are and where we are. They aren’t just talking about individual pasts, but about all of history. History and traditions aren’t important; what matters is the here and now. This is one of the reasons, BTW, that I became very disillusioned with evangelicalism. I believe that in order to understand the present and to create a good future, we must understand the past.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Even if you don’t want to be a catholic, don’t you owe it to yourself to believe the way that the first christians did? OR did the church fall into heresy right after the word “go”?

Hey, Suupah, i’m Evangelical but considering whether the Roman Catholic faith i left as a youth is closer to the truth.

When i, and other Evangelicals i know, think of the first Christians, we think of the book of Acts. Many Evangelical and others do their best to model their churches after the first church described in Acts.

I find it interesting that the early church was not call the Catholic church, nor the Evangelical church, nor the Christian church, rather it was call The Way. Would you point out to me from the book of Acts what you think that Way should be?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

My challenge to them is for them to point out three men who lived between 250AD and 1000AD whom the Protestant considers to be a GENUINE Christian. Trying to get protestants to answer that one is like pulling teeth.

I’ve heard several Evangelical and Calvary Chapel pastors teach that St. Augustine was Christian and quote from his Confessions. Hope it did not hurt to much to pull that answer outta’ me!

 

[suupah]

That’s only because the Catholic hierarchy rewrote all historical texts after they took control and pushed the Baptists underground by killing them all until Martin Luther exposed the lie and brought the bible back to the people and made christianity how it should be even though no baptists are today lutherans which it seems they should be if Martin Luther is such a hero of theirs but it’s curious how the Baptists were the original church and yet there’s no Baptist reformer. Things that make you go “Hmmmm…”

Then why wouldn’t they change the bible to include words like immaculate conception and transubstantiation?

 

[suupah]

I’ve heard several Evangelical and Calvary Chapel pastors teach that St. Augustine was Christian and quote from his Confessions. Hope it did not hurt to much to pull that answer outta’ me!

Augustine believed in Real Presence, Confession, Baptismal Regeneration etc etc. How does that make him like a modern day evangelical. Also he was a bishop.

 

[suupah]

Hey, Suupah, i’m Evangelical but considering whether the Roman Catholic faith i left as a youth is closer to the truth.

When i, and other Evangelicals i know, think of the first Christians, we think of the book of Acts. Many Evangelical and others do their best to model their churches after the first church described in Acts.

I find it interesting that the early church was not call the Catholic church, nor the Evangelical church, nor the Christian church, rather it was call The Way. Would you point out to me from the book of Acts what you think that Way should be?

I have read the book of Acts many times as i am sure you have. One thing that i figured out right away is that the book of ACTS was not a systematic theology book nor a Catechism on “The Way”. There is much mentioned in the context of a story, but not much explained. For example the last time i read it was to figure out exactly how the Holy Spirit was received in the early church. Sometimes as baptism, sometimes when preached to before baptism and yet other times not when preached to or baptized but only when an apostle laid their hands on them and conferred it upon them. There was no clarity on the action of the Holy Spirit in the text. That is where you have to go to the church as an authority to see what they teach. To use the book of Acts as a Catechism or a comprehensive theology text book is a misuse and an abuse IMO.

However I do know what you are getting at and yes there are some elements in that book that seem pretty evangelical like the word causing people to speak in tongues. However there are also some strong Catholic pointers there too for example:

**
Acts2:42

“They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers.”**

I don’t know ANY evangelicals that devote themselves to the breaking of the bread or “the prayers”. Many devote themselves to prayer but none to “the prayers” which to me indicate the psalms or some other official prayers.

 

[SyCarl]

My challenge to them is for them to point out three men who lived between 250AD and 1000AD whom the Protestant considers to be a GENUINE Christian. Trying to get protestants to answer that one is like pulling teeth.

I would say that virtually all the Church Fathers were genuine Christians. That being said, it does not mean that they got everything right. Most Catholics today are geniune Christians. (There will be exceptions just as there are with non-Catholics). However, being genuine Christians does not mean the Catholic Church is error frees. The same applies to Protestant churches. The question is which churches are closest to the truth. Error was entering the Church even during the time of the Apostles. Many of the letters in the New Testament were written to correct errors that were creeping in. These were to people who had been taught directly by the Apostles. If they could slip into error we have no guarantee that men like Ignatius and Polycarp, who may have been taught by John, were always correct in what they wrote.

Also, the writings of the church fathers are not always consistent. I can find statements that would be in accordance with faith alone while others could find statements, some even from the same writers, that say otherwise. Given the lack of consistency in their writings it can be difficult to determine what they actually believed.

I can believe many of the things the Catholic Church teaches. However since it claims to be free from error and requires belief in all its teachings, I don’t think I could ever be a Catholic because I believe that some of the things they have put forward are just not right or are not necessary to believe.

 

[sterryfamily]

Hey, Suupah, i’m Evangelical but considering whether the Roman Catholic faith i left as a youth is closer to the truth.

When i, and other Evangelicals i know, think of the first Christians, we think of the book of Acts. Many Evangelical and others do their best to model their churches after the first church described in Acts.

I find it interesting that the early church was not call the Catholic church, nor the Evangelical church, nor the Christian church, rather it was call The Way. Would you point out to me from the book of Acts what you think that Way should be?

All evidence suggests the early Christians, indeed called themselves “Catholics”. Consider the following quote from St Ignatius of Antioch. He was a desciple of the apostle,St John, and traveled some with Sts Peter and Paul and was appointed bishop of Antioch by St Peter, himself:

“Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

In your opinion, does Ignatius appear to be coining a new term when he says the Catholic Church, or does it appear to be one he learned?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Actually, a lot of Protestants quote the Early Church fathers. My husband and I are converts from evangelical Christianity, and my husband still listens to “Christian radio” (Protestant), including several shows that could only be described as “anti-Catholic.” (He believes that in order to answer our enemy, we have to understand our enemy–good plan, if you can listen to these people without your blood pressure going up!)

Anyway, the hosts of this radio show constantly quote various Church Fathers to prove their various points. BUT…they quote selectively, and totally leave out all the writings that indicate that these men practiced Catholic Christianity.

The selective citations are where the true proplem rests and that is why my challenge is more involved that simply pointing to a Christian sounding quote. To be consistent in theology Protestants must condemn or at least not look to people who taught heretical doctrine, I know of no Early Church Father who could be held up as an ideal Christian in Protestantism.

 

[suupah]

Also, the writings of the church fathers are not always consistent. I can find statements that would be in accordance with faith alone while others could find statements, some even from the same writers, that say otherwise. Given the lack of consistency in their writings it can be difficult to determine what they actually believed.

Yes you are right. And Faith alone justifies us. However that faith entails works of obedience. We are also judged by how faithfully we served as evidenced through our works. Faith Alone is not contradictory to faith and works. Faith includes the works. but that is another subject.

The bigger point is that there are so many doctrines that evangelicals have accused the catholic church of inventing in the fourth century which were unanimously taught from the very beginning ie real presence, regenerative baptism etc.

I guess i am looking for an explanation for the unanimously agreed to doctrines such as these.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I’ve heard several Evangelical and Calvary Chapel pastors teach that St. Augustine was Christian and quote from his Confessions. Hope it did not hurt to much to pull that answer outta’ me!

But to be consistent they would have to anathematize Augustine on some of the same grounds they anathematize Catholics. For example Augustine believed in justification by infused grace while any Protestants true to the Reformers would have to condemn that teaching as grave heresy which they do in fact condemn Catholics for teaching.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I would say that virtually all the Church Fathers were genuine Christians. That being said, it does not mean that they got everything right. Most Catholics today are geniune Christians. (There will be exceptions just as there are with non-Catholics). However, being genuine Christians does not mean the Catholic Church is error frees. The same applies to Protestant churches. The question is which churches are closest to the truth. Error was entering the Church even during the time of the Apostles. Many of the letters in the New Testament were written to correct errors that were creeping in. These were to people who had been taught directly by the Apostles. If they could slip into error we have no guarantee that men like Ignatius and Polycarp, who may have been taught by John, were always correct in what they wrote.

Also, the writings of the church fathers are not always consistent. I can find statements that would be in accordance with faith alone while others could find statements, some even from the same writers, that say otherwise. Given the lack of consistency in their writings it can be difficult to determine what they actually believed.

I can believe many of the things the Catholic Church teaches. However since it claims to be free from error and requires belief in all its teachings, I don’t think I could ever be a Catholic because I believe that some of the things they have put forward are just not right or are not necessary to believe.

You have to distinguish between what is an error of opinion and what is genuine heresy. To be looked upon as a canonized Early Church Father they must have not only been show to live a exemplary Christian life but their teachings must not contain heresy. Early Church Fathers like St Augustine did not teach imputed righteousness nor eternal security, two critical teachings which groups following Luther and Calvin must condemn a grave error.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Most Mega Churches or Evangelical Churches have Alter Calls. the Early Christians didn’t. They have the Mass or Divine Liturgy in the East, the Sacrifice of the Eucharist as the center of worship.

Moderan Evangelicals is a completely departure from ancient authentic Christian worship.

 

[Ilroy]

Augustine believed in Real Presence, Confession, Baptismal Regeneration etc etc. How does that make him like a modern day evangelical. Also he was a bishop.

And don’t forget that he said many Masses for the repose of his mother’s soul, at her request, upon her death. One of the big issues non-Catholics have with the Church.

 

[BrianH]

Most Mega Churches or Evangelical Churches have Alter Calls. the Early Christians didn’t. They have the Mass or Divine Liturgy in the East, the Sacrifice of the Eucharist as the center of worship.

Moderan Evangelicals is a completely departure from ancient authentic Christian worship.

There is nothing in early Christian literature to support the statement you just made. In fact early in the Book of Acts, Peter preaches and several are saved and added to the church.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest that people did not become Christians at a church service.

 

[BrianH]

the bishoprics, apostolic succession, the authority of tscripture and tradition and veneration of saints.

No, the Bible does not support a bishop being in charge of an entire city and neither do the earliest documents.
Veneration of saints in any manner like Catholic practice is also 200 years later as well.
Apostolic Succession, that depends on how one defines it. Not Christian scholar I have read supports a monarchial bishop, a linear laying on of hands or the like. Let us be accurate.